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The shortest NM Arishok duel ever


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#51
mr_afk

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tmp7704 wrote...

andraip wrote...

IN1 is talking about DPS builds, because of obvious reasons a supportive (just creation, arcane and spirit healer spells) build will never have the same dps as a dps build (and if they had the same dps it would be very, very, very unbalanced, also because of obvious reasons)

And what i'm talking about is the top dps achievable in DA2 is much higher than it was in DAO, which means much higher disparity between such top dps build and these which aren't full-out dps but aren't full support, either. That's while the defense/support side of the game wasn't scaled up in effect anywhere near as much (in fact if anything the effectiveness of it was reduced in number of areas)

Which combined can lead to situation where by picking skills which don't improve your dps by the largest amount possible you're missing out on considerable amount of dps but without gaining much of utility/survability in return. And why such situation has nothing to do with balance should be equally obvious like the things you mention.


I'm not sure what you're trying to get at...are you saying that a badly built build is bad while a good build is good? Or are you simply saying that a non-dps build doesn't do that much damage? Wouldn't that always be the case? If you build your character badly (e.g. loads of attribute points in the wrong things) you can almost expect to have crappy dps AND survivability in any game. Infact they've made it even easier than in origins with rogues no longer having to weigh up the benefits pumping strength to wear better armor and not having talents that are purely for utility reasons (deft hands etc.). So i don't see where the problem lies...unless you are referring in particular to the one occasion in which a non-dps hawke might have to fight without their dps companions and thus have to deal a considerable amount of damage by themselves?

Because I'm pretty sure support abilities such as (perma-)haste, heroic aura etc. are pretty effective/balanced... The effect of the support abilities (dps-wise) should be considered on a party-wide basis, so even a well-built tank can be considered 'effective' if it allows the dps party-members to be more fragile and do their stuff without interference.
I actually prefer DA2 is this regard, not having bugged maximum attack speeds means that you can get absolutely crazy speeds and actually use haste with archers.

Anyway back to the topic at hand, that was one of the funnier videos i've seen. That lame rocket-boost thing he did and the way he died before he could turn around somewhat reminds me of that orgre in the deeproads that gets his head stuck in the wall haha. Certainly a lot more amusing than chucking a decoy then watching him randomly slash at the air while getting pumped full of arrows.

Modifié par mr_afk, 10 avril 2011 - 06:29 .


#52
tmp7704

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mr_afk wrote...

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at...are you saying that a badly built build is bad while a good build is good? Or are you simply saying that a non-dps build doesn't do that much damage? Wouldn't that always be the case?

I'm saying you can easily enough have "badly build built" which is a most obvious symptom of the lack of balance. That despite the game attempting to streamline available abilities and to make all attributes beneficial to all classes.

#53
mgd944

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fail, use of shield is a cheat. doesn't count

#54
rumination888

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mgd944 wrote...

fail, use of shield is a cheat. doesn't count


/facepalm

The shield he used doesn't have any class requirements. It has stat requirements and he met those requirements easily. There's no mods or anything involving cheats in that video.

#55
Joy Divison

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Nukenin wrote...

I never had the luxury of dueling the Arishok.


I think certain dialogue options trigger him thinking you are a worthy enemy.  You can speak w/ him outside the Qunari missions for more opportunities (like after Sheparding Wolves).  I think he responds best to honesty/being forthright and assertiveness.

In my "nice guy" playthough, I didn't get the option for a duel either.

OP: nice kill btw.  I should have more confidence in my own duel weilding rogue and not kite so much!

Modifié par Joy Divison, 10 avril 2011 - 05:11 .


#56
bunnies

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impressive how you find creepholes in all classes' mechanics to do enormous numbers
you just need to relax and not pause so much, believe me, you're not gonna die:P

#57
IN1

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bunnies wrote...

impressive how you find creepholes in all classes' mechanics to do enormous numbers
you just need to relax and not pause so much, believe me, you're not gonna die:P


Lightning reflexes are not my forte :) Also, as an old-school D&D freak, I love to pretend it's sort of BG3 or, to be precise, IWD3 (either way, still turn-based). 

#58
Evermind2k

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mgd944 wrote...

fail, use of shield is a cheat. doesn't count


I know you are trolling, but...

Not really.

1) Pump up some STR
2) Equip cross-class friendly shield
3) .....
4) Profit??

#59
FightingMiu

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well, no matter what, that was fast, It took me a long time to duel him because he'd kill me unless I moved around a lot, I was a rogue too. But my faithful mabari did help me.... it's still impressive to me that it took that short a time.

#60
WhiteKnyght

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My Rogue Hawke tore old Arishok apart.

#61
Att3r0

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i almost fell of my chair when i realised this
with shield in off hand you ATTACK with IT doing _ARMOR_ as damage.
im not sure if those attacks can crit and i belive slower then dagger (but who knows the numbers display times arnt that accurate)
But youit works like dream with assasinate ...there is some other shield in gallows in act 3 with no sword and shield requirement . took it did some random assasinate with no brittle 5+15k .. ^_^

gonna throw in another thign about arishok . His horns took the space that normaly brain takes so after killing your Decoy (shadow) he will sit there wondering where is the corpse and you can safely stick him with arrows. Dont poke him with daggers coz he mad and will repeatably wirlwind.

#62
IN1

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im not sure if those attacks can crit and i belive slower then dagger (but who knows the numbers display times arnt that accurate)
But youit works like dream with assasinate ...there is some other shield in gallows in act 3 with no sword and shield requirement . took it did some random assasinate with no brittle 5+15k .. ^_^


It can crit like any other weapon, and the animation speed is the regular dagger speed (1.86/s). The other cross-class shield is Volcanic.

#63
shoggoth1890

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I used to think the no requirement items were intentional, until I tried to equip a shield on my mage or Fenris, causing the game to crash. So it seems there's two possibilities:
1.) These items simply failed to be marked with the skill requirements
2.) These items were meant to have no skill requirements, but the devs failed to realize they needed to flag a default single-hand weapon for 2h weapon characters to equip when you switch.

#64
IN1

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shoggoth1890 wrote...

I used to think the no requirement items were intentional, until I tried to equip a shield on my mage or Fenris, causing the game to crash. So it seems there's two possibilities:
1.) These items simply failed to be marked with the skill requirements
2.) These items were meant to have no skill requirements, but the devs failed to realize they needed to flag a default single-hand weapon for 2h weapon characters to equip when you switch.


Nah, it's pretty obvious these cross-class items aren't by design: weird animations, talents not working properly (try to Vendetta with a staff), cooldowns set to 0 (Sebastian with a staff).

#65
Luke Barrett

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I can confirm that these were not intentional choices, simply overlooked items. Feel free to PM me a full list of them and they'll get fixed (at some point)

#66
IN1

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Luke Barrett wrote...

I can confirm that these were not intentional choices, simply overlooked items. Feel free to PM me a full list of them and they'll get fixed (at some point)


Never! I want to cheese my way through the game wielding a shield as a DW rogue! ;)

The full list is quite short: Defender of the Wall, Volcanic Shield, Allure's Crook, Corrupted Acolyte Staff, Void's Hammer. Whether it needs to be fixed or not is another question.

Actually, my honest evaluation is Allure build for a warrior is not even cheesy, just unusual and gimmicky (given high Mag requirement, you sacrifice a lot of dps).
Dagger & Shield is fun, but ultimately -- yeah, no denying that -- quite cheesy, since even if you sacrifice your dex/Cun for Str/Con, you end up with a crazy sheer increase in burst damage. It has one redeeming quality: currently, it's the only thing that makes Lacerate worth it. In fact any D&S build should be Lacerate-centric, and that's refreshing.

#67
tmp7704

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IN1 wrote...

Never! I want to cheese my way through the game wielding a shield as a DW rogue! ;)

If nothing else, dual-wielding shields would be highly original when it comes to RPG combat. Maybe they could make it a new warrior specialization Image IPB

#68
Loc'n'lol

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tmp7704 wrote...

If nothing else, dual-wielding shields would be highly original when it comes to RPG combat. Maybe they could make it a new warrior specialization Image IPB

This chart comes to mind... :D
Image IPB
EDIT: this is from Skyrim, for those who wouldn't know.

Modifié par _Loc_N_lol_, 12 avril 2011 - 04:18 .


#69
IN1

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tmp7704 wrote...

IN1 wrote...

Never! I want to cheese my way through the game wielding a shield as a DW rogue! ;)

If nothing else, dual-wielding shields would be highly original when it comes to RPG combat. Maybe they could make it a new warrior specialization Image IPB


In fact, there is a certain Russian browser RPG (it was hugely popular a couple of years ago and still going strong, I think), where you can play as a Dwarven Defender dual-wielding shields (by design!) with a result somewhat similar to that demonstrated in the Arishok vid. They just countered every attack and reflected all the damage dealt back with huge critical factor.

Modifié par IN1, 12 avril 2011 - 04:15 .


#70
shoggoth1890

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Man, I had been hoping that they were intentional despite the crashes, and the lack of restrictions was just an added characteristic like "immunity to flanking".

Unless I'm missing something though, the fact that the rogue shield was unintentional doesn't really take away from the clip, since he never even touches you. If anything, does the shield not decrease your efficiency in that fight since it decreases your DPS?

#71
IN1

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shoggoth1890 wrote...

Man, I had been hoping that they were intentional despite the crashes, and the lack of restrictions was just an added characteristic like "immunity to flanking".

Unless I'm missing something though, the fact that the rogue shield was unintentional doesn't really take away from the clip, since he never even touches you. If anything, does the shield not decrease your efficiency in that fight since it decreases your DPS?


Oh, you got it all wrong :) The shield is the reason I'm taking down the NM Arishok in one humble MoD > Assassinate > Twin Fangs combo. To be more precise, the shield + Lacerate. The shied is treated as a DW weapon with base damage equal to its armor rating (= very high).

I don't really care about legit/illegit debate. The video is a curiosity, and a demonstration of D&S possibilities (that are totally and wholly vanilla, no modding used), not an attempt to show everyone how ace I am. Everyone would be ace with this specific setup (though not everyone can come up with the idea of such a perverse build, I admit). 

#72
shoggoth1890

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Haha, I see. Had wondered if that was the case. Due to my crash experience with mages and Fenris, I never bothered to try it on a rogue so I wasn't sure just how it would be treated.

#73
tmp7704

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IN1 wrote...

In fact, there is a certain Russian browser RPG (it was hugely popular a couple of years ago and still going strong, I think), where you can play as a Dwarven Defender dual-wielding shields (by design!) with a result somewhat similar to that demonstrated in the Arishok vid. They just countered every attack and reflected all the damage dealt back with huge critical factor.

lol. Between that and the chart above, now i'm picturing kind of Gamera-like dwarf, spinning madly and throwing aside everything that stands in his way. Occasionally stopping to slice with his shields through something especially sturdy.

#74
IN1

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tmp7704 wrote...

IN1 wrote...

In fact, there is a certain Russian browser RPG (it was hugely popular a couple of years ago and still going strong, I think), where you can play as a Dwarven Defender dual-wielding shields (by design!) with a result somewhat similar to that demonstrated in the Arishok vid. They just countered every attack and reflected all the damage dealt back with huge critical factor.

lol. Between that and the chart above, now i'm picturing kind of Gamera-like dwarf, spinning madly and throwing aside everything that stands in his way. Occasionally stopping to slice with his shields through something especially sturdy.


The animation was adequate, as far as I recall. He had spiked shields, so it was sort of logical he deals a lot of damage on counter-hit. Quite balance-breaking, though. Poor rogues just kept one-hit KO'ing themselves. 

#75
Whailor

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Luke Barrett wrote...

I can confirm that these were not intentional choices, simply overlooked items. Feel free to PM me a full list of them and they'll get fixed (at some point)


And the rest of bugs? Quests which cannot be completed? Or save import bugs when importing from Origins or Awakening? Those affect quite a bit as well and either enable or disable content in the game.

As for the duel, nice work, shows what can be done with experimenting and paying attention :)