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[GearRust]

The game 'Dragon Age: 2' takes places in Kirkwall of the magical land Thedas.

Where you, 'Hawke', play as the friend of a troubled mage by the name of 'Anders' and have your other friend, 'Varric', tell the tale of how you both met and helped Anders along his way as a key turning point in Thedas's history.

The story begins when you meet him helping the sick and troubled in the slums of Kirkwall, looking for some maps to the deep roads so that you can get some cash, as he was once a "Grey Warden", a protecter from the ever threatening darkness that is the DarkSpawn, but had run away due to his rebelious nature.

It is soon found that Anders has been imbued with a spirit of Justice and that he has an incredible confliction on the inside as well as one with the aggresive templars surrounding him.

With his ever growing rage from the warped form of justice that viciously fights for dominence in the ever growing presence of the templars, the Quanri invade Kirkwall and his urge to help is underminned by the chance that he may draw the templars attention and cause an even worse predicament for the mages then they already have. So with a regretful heart he asks you, his friend 'Hawke', to stop the Qunari. With but narrow success, you stop the invasion.

It then becomes to much for the troubled mage to handle, as he finally sees the mages will never be free and that they need to take a stand. So with a resolute and coffidant plan...

He Blows up the Chantry with his Macguyver like skills severing any chance that the templars and mages will ever be at peace again.

His fate is then given to you, 'Hawke', and from there the troubled mage runs.


Anders.
He is truley the main hero of Dragon Age 2.

Anyone disagree?

Modifié par GearRust, 09 avril 2011 - 02:59 .

[Plaintiff]

Yeah... not really. Anders is not involved with the Qunari situation. At all. If that's anyone's story, it's Isabela's. He only really comes to the fore in the third act. I'm not denying that his role is important, but the game is about Hawke's life. The mage/templar conflict is just one of many he gets involved in.

Dragon Age 2 is not the story of that event anymore than Forrest Gump is a story about the Vietnam War.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 09 avril 2011 - 02:29 .

[highcastle]

Anders is only the main character in the sense of Alistair or Morrigan being the main character in Origins. He plays a pivotal role, but he's not central to every single story arc. Ultimately it's about Hawke's life and reactions to the events around him. Anders happens to be important in that, even more so if he's Hawke's LI.

[GearRust]

I just think it's funny that the story tries to revolve around 'Hawke', when at the very last moment Anders swoops in and is the cause of one of the most devastating event to hit Thedas.

The only thing you, 'Hawke', effect if mages hate you or not.

That is Hawke: The most popular or unpopular person to all Mages of Thedas.

Atleast the Warden was: The Queller of the Blight

Modifié par GearRust, 09 avril 2011 - 02:43 .

[Phantom13NWN2]

GearRust wrote...

I just think it's funny that the story tries to revolve around 'Hawke', when at the very last moment Anders swoops in and is the cause of one of the most devastating event to hit Thedas.

The only thing you, 'Hawke', effect if mages hate you or not.

That is Hawke: The most popular or unpopular person to all Mages of Thedas.

Atleast the Warden was: The Queller of the Blight

This.

[Sesshomaru47]

I wouldn't call him a hero, just a constant annoyance. Also he only really comes in to play in Act III, the other 2 acts are pretty much Anders free...

[Phantom13NWN2]

Sesshomaru47 wrote...

I wouldn't call him a hero, just a constant annoyance. Also he only really comes in to play in Act III, the other 2 acts are pretty much Anders free...

Nobody said he was a hero, hes the main character, we were told by Laidlaw that at the end of DA2 the world will have changed. Well that is true, only it wasnt because of Hawke.

How has the world changed? All the circles  have rebelled against templar oppression, what was the catalyst ? The war between the templars and the mages in kirkwall. How did the war between the templars and mages in Kirkwall start ? Anders blew up the chantry.

Conclusion. Anders changed the world for ever. Hawke was a spectator.

DA2 is such a joke...

Modifié par Phantom13NWN2, 09 avril 2011 - 03:11 .

[corebit]

Completely agree with the OP.

I find it laughable that many people said Hawke was the catalyst for the entire mage/templar conflict, when in fact it is Anders who is the real catalyst.

I spent the entire game trying to convince Anders to take a more moderate approach...for nothing.
I spent the entire game eliminating the more fringe elements of both sides, hoping to restore sanity in the city...for nothing.

It's funny that Cassandra is searching for Hawke because he is "the one", when he has been pretty helpless and irrelevant for most of the important choices in the game. He has basically ZERO influence in the main plot. For all the acclaimed importance Hawke supposedly has, he is simply a tag-along for the conflicts that NPCs create.

Being a Champion of Kirkwall means nothing in this game. You have no control, no influence, zilch over the events of the game. You have as much influence as you did 10 years ago fresh off the boat from Ferelden as a nobody, the only difference is people call you by a different name. That' s it.

Modifié par corebit, 09 avril 2011 - 05:07 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I sometimes like to think of Anders as the main villain of the game.

[Plaintiff]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I sometimes like to think of Anders as the main villain of the game.

If blowing up chantries is wrong, I don't wanna be right.

[sylvanaerie]

There is one difference between Refugee Hawke and Champion Hawke. As a refugee, he is under the radar, ignored, a nobody. As Champion it is to Hawke (not Anders) they turn to to resolve things. Both Orsino AND Meredith want him on their side. All Anders did was kill a lot of poeple and upped the ante of the conflict. His participation is forgotten (by Varric's telling) or else is unimportant in the long run. He didn't start the conflict as Orsino's passive/aggressive resistance and Meredith's hatred/paranoia were present before the events of the game. Hawke may not be the catalyst to things but Hawke was THERE when the poo hit the fan and it was by Hawke's actions, the world was changed.

Flemeth tells him "when that moment comes, leap" not "When that moment comes...you'll be the reason".
I think they had other people doing the stuff that causes this to break out so that Hawke remains a hero.  He isn't involved in the Qunari thing except as someone who has to deal with it once it happens.Aveline/Isabella can share that whole Arishok thing because it's Aveline insisting the elves be turned over to her for justice, and Isabella's fault they are there in the first place. And equally the Arishok's narrow vision of the Qun that also keeps him in Kirkwall, a place he has a complete disgust for. Funny how tunnel vision of their own problems seems to make whackjobs of most of the primary participants. 
He isn't involved in the Mage/Templar war (since Bethany can be dead or a GW at this point) but still gets pulled into it by being who he is.

Anders can be left in his clinic and completely ignored till that action in Act 3.  In fact after he kills the girl in Act 2 (which is possible) Hawke can tell him GTFO and he will be gone till he blows up the Chantry in Act 3.   Anders as a character is practically a non entity in the game aside from his maps (maybe making Bethany/Carver a GW) and blowing up the chantry.  Most of my games that is all he is there for anyway.

*Edited because it's WAY too early for me and I left out some parts*

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 09 avril 2011 - 07:56 .

[Maria Caliban]

Phantom13NWN2 wrote...

Nobody said he was a hero...

The OP calls him the main hero of the game.

[Xewaka]

Anders is the main character of DA 2 in the same way Morrigan and Alistair are the main characters of DA:O. They're plot devices needed to trigger events.

[mesmerizedish]

I disagree.

But I wouldn't call it a bad thing if it were true. I think, really, DAII doesn't revolve around anyone. You just happen to have been there. Which is cool. I'd play a game where a companion is really the "main character," plotwise. I think it'd be pretty schweet.

[Giltspur]

Well, during the climax Hawke does not seem to make the decision that changes the world the most.  And Varric seems to agree since he suggests that it's Meredith or Anders that's to blame for what happened--not the Champion.

So if you think that the main character has to be the one that makes the decision that has the biggest impact on the world, then maybe you think Hawke isn't the main character--or maybe you still think he is the main character (since it centers on him) but shouldn't be since the big decisions at the end are made by Anders and Meredith.  I can see why someone would feel that way.

But Hawke does make the decision during the climax that defines what he is as a character.  Namely, he decides whether he sides with the templars are the mages.  Gaider has mentioned that if they did another Dragon Age game with Hawke as the lead they wouldn't really need new origins since DA2 provides multiple entry points for Hawke already.  While Gaider doesn't elaborate, it would be possible for them to treat pro-Mage as one entry point and pro-Templar as another entry point.  Sure things played out in DA2 mostly the same no matter what Hawke did.  But Hawke, the character can be viewed as different in DA2 and future games based on the decisions he made.

At any rate, I think that Anders and Meredith are the people the people that "changed the world" and that Hawke decided who Hawke was.  Are you more worried about the external events of the story or about the character that the story is focused on?  It seems Bioware wanted the player to be concerned with Hawke for the purposes of DA2 while having a set event that could use in DA3 as a starting point (the mage rebellions). A lot of the reactions on the forum to DA2's ending are not focused on Hawke as a character but instead focus on how they (the gamer as Hawke) had no control over the mages rebelling or not.  That suggests a lot of gamers (at least a lot of the ones posting on forums) were not sufficiently immersed in Hawke the character and as a result were more concerned with the big events at the end and the world in general.

Modifié par Giltspur, 09 avril 2011 - 09:32 .

[GearRust]

sylvanaerie wrote...
Aveline/Isabella can share that whole Arishok thing because it's Aveline insisting the elves be turned over to her for justice, and Isabella's fault they are there in the first place.

Aveline and Isabella used words....Anders used a Bomb that warped the sky and shatterd the structural form of the chantry.

The Qun was willing to leave Kirkwall if you gave him the book and Isabella.

The Anders was not willing to let mages compromise for freedom.

Compared to anders, they were just flies flying around the gutter ingredient for the bomb that made a mideval orbital stike on the chantry.

In the end you were the one who actually 'stopped' the qun from conquering kirkwall.

After that, you were pretty a passenger on the crazy train to '**** just got real' town.

'Hawke' had no real importance in the overall scheme of things.

I want you, and everyone, to think about the game and how it played up until the part anders blew up the chantry.

I'll give ya a sec.....

Alright. Now picture the very same events happening without Hawke ever having been there? Would anything have changed?

The answer, if you think about it is 'No'. The Qunari invasion, though defeated by hawke, would have been quelled by Meredith and the Lyrium Sword she possesed even at that point in the game. There is no way the Arishok could with stand the sheer might of a power he had never encouterd.

The game would have been vitually the same. The only difference would be that instead of 'Hawke' being the most unpopular or popular guy to the mages, 'Meredith' would have just been the most unpopular person to all the mages.

You were a spectator, and rarely a participator.

By that logic the next person running for the main character would be Anders, as he has the largest effect on the entire game.

Isn't that what the main character is? The person who takes a journey to accomplish something of great importance, be it to themselves or to a higher calling?

Modifié par GearRust, 09 avril 2011 - 09:54 .

[Xewaka]

GearRust wrote...
The answer, if you think about it is 'No'. The Qunari invasion, though defeated by hawke, would have been quelled by Meredith and the Lyrium Sword she possesed even at that point in the game. There is no way the Arishok could with stand the sheer might of a power he had never encouterd.

Just to nitpick, she still hasn't the lyrium sword yet by that point. You'll notice in her introductory cutscene she beheads the Sareebas with a regular felerdan longsword.

[IanPolaris]

Xewaka wrote...

GearRust wrote...
The answer, if you think about it is 'No'. The Qunari invasion, though defeated by hawke, would have been quelled by Meredith and the Lyrium Sword she possesed even at that point in the game. There is no way the Arishok could with stand the sheer might of a power he had never encouterd.

Just to nitpick, she still hasn't the lyrium sword yet by that point. You'll notice in her introductory cutscene she beheads the Sareebas with a regular felerdan longsword.

True, but the larger point remains.  Once Meridith rallied the Templars (and especially if Orsino gathers some battlemages), the Qunari in the keep are doomed.  The only question is how many Kirkwall nobles die in the process.  The reason the Qunari did as well as they did is they had total suprise and thus fought an overwhelmed city guard.  The Templars in Kirkwall is an army, and if they have magical backing (whch they would in this case), it's easily more powerful than a short-company of Qunari.

-Polaris

[GearRust]

Xewaka wrote...

GearRust wrote...
The answer, if you think about it is 'No'. The Qunari invasion, though defeated by hawke, would have been quelled by Meredith and the Lyrium Sword she possesed even at that point in the game. There is no way the Arishok could with stand the sheer might of a power he had never encouterd.

Just to nitpick, she still hasn't the lyrium sword yet by that point. You'll notice in her introductory cutscene she beheads the Sareebas with a regular felerdan longsword.

Ah! your are very correct good ser, thankyou for the nip of the butt.

Regardless though, Meredith would have her way and rush the keep with her templar group and hand full of mages, though more people would have been slaughterd, she would have still stopped the rebellion. For she posses the power to disarm the saarebas and the mages have the power to disable and weaken their warriors.

[Xewaka]

IanPolaris wrote...
True, but the larger point remains.  Once Meridith rallied the Templars (and especially if Orsino gathers some battlemages), the Qunari in the keep are doomed.  The only question is how many Kirkwall nobles die in the process.  The reason the Qunari did as well as they did is they had total suprise and thus fought an overwhelmed city guard.  The Templars in Kirkwall is an army, and if they have magical backing (whch they would in this case), it's easily more powerful than a short-company of Qunari.

GearRust wrote...
Regardless though, Meredith would have her
way and rush the keep with her templar group and hand full of mages,
though more people would have been slaughterd, she would have still
stopped the rebellion. For she posses the power to disarm the saarebas
and the mages have the power to disable and weaken their
warriors.

Yes. And then Meredith would be the hero of the story, not Hawke. Anders would still be a plot device.

Modifié par Xewaka, 09 avril 2011 - 10:32 .

[GearRust]

Xewaka wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
True, but the larger point remains.  Once Meridith rallied the Templars (and especially if Orsino gathers some battlemages), the Qunari in the keep are doomed.  The only question is how many Kirkwall nobles die in the process.  The reason the Qunari did as well as they did is they had total suprise and thus fought an overwhelmed city guard.  The Templars in Kirkwall is an army, and if they have magical backing (whch they would in this case), it's easily more powerful than a short-company of Qunari.

GearRust wrote...
Regardless though, Meredith would have her
way and rush the keep with her templar group and hand full of mages,
though more people would have been slaughterd, she would have still
stopped the rebellion. For she posses the power to disarm the saarebas
and the mages have the power to disable and weaken their
warriors.

Yes. And then Meredith would be the hero of the story, not Hawke. Anders would still be a plot device.

Not exactly.

Think about how people would talk about the event after it happended.

Meredith would have been the most unpopular person to mages in all of Thedas

Anders would still be the catalyst that started the entire event through inner conflict.

You are right to say that he is a plot device.

But, aren't all heroes plot devices in the never ending story of history, including Thedases?

[Augustei]

GearRust wrote...

The game 'Dragon Age: 2' takes places in Kirkwall of the magical land Thedas.

Where you, 'Hawke', play as the friend of a troubled mage by the name of 'Anders' and have your other friend, 'Varric', tell the tale of how you both met and helped Anders along his way as a key turning point in Thedas's history.

The story begins when you meet him helping the sick and troubled in the slums of Kirkwall, looking for some maps to the deep roads so that you can get some cash, as he was once a "Grey Warden", a protecter from the ever threatening darkness that is the DarkSpawn, but had run away due to his rebelious nature.

It is soon found that Anders has been imbued with a spirit of Justice and that he has an incredible confliction on the inside as well as one with the aggresive templars surrounding him.

With his ever growing rage from the warped form of justice that viciously fights for dominence in the ever growing presence of the templars, the Quanri invade Kirkwall and his urge to help is underminned by the chance that he may draw the templars attention and cause an even worse predicament for the mages then they already have. So with a regretful heart he asks you, his friend 'Hawke', to stop the Qunari. With but narrow success, you stop the invasion.

It then becomes to much for the troubled mage to handle, as he finally sees the mages will never be free and that they need to take a stand. So with a resolute and coffidant plan...

He Blows up the Chantry with his Macguyver like skills severing any chance that the templars and mages will ever be at peace again.

His fate is then given to you, 'Hawke', and from there the troubled mage runs.


Anders.
He is truley the main hero of Dragon Age 2.

Anyone disagree?

Well the crazy Fanatic Resolutionist thing has been done before, but if Anders was the main character in DA2 then Magneto must have been the main charecter in X-men The Last Stand, or X-men 1 for that matter

[Xewaka]

GearRust wrote...
Not exactly.
Think about how people would talk about the event after it happended.
Meredith would have been the most unpopular person to mages in all of Thedas
Anders would still be the catalyst that started the entire event through inner conflict.
You are right to say that he is a plot device.
But, aren't all heroes plot devices in the never ending story of history, including Thedases?

Plot devices can be heroes, heroes need not be plot devices. As a matter of fact, heroes in most media are defenders of the status quo, intervening only when forces outside their influence put the events into motion. Most protagonist are not plot enablers, but plot coasters.
Besides, as I see it, the Champion of Kirkwall is basically a profiteer. He may not have set the events in motion, but he tries to take the most gain out of it. The story of Hawke is, in short, the story of a person who took his chances when presented.
He is not the man that changed the world: He is the man that saw the world changing and profitted from it.
However, we're still being told his story, and thus he is the main character. The main character needs not be the hero, needs not be the plot device. He needs only be the character taking the brunt of the storytelling.

[GearRust]

XxDeonxX wrote...

GearRust wrote...

The game 'Dragon Age: 2' takes places in Kirkwall of the magical land Thedas.

Where you, 'Hawke', play as the friend of a troubled mage by the name of 'Anders' and have your other friend, 'Varric', tell the tale of how you both met and helped Anders along his way as a key turning point in Thedas's history.

The story begins when you meet him helping the sick and troubled in the slums of Kirkwall, looking for some maps to the deep roads so that you can get some cash, as he was once a "Grey Warden", a protecter from the ever threatening darkness that is the DarkSpawn, but had run away due to his rebelious nature.

It is soon found that Anders has been imbued with a spirit of Justice and that he has an incredible confliction on the inside as well as one with the aggresive templars surrounding him.

With his ever growing rage from the warped form of justice that viciously fights for dominence in the ever growing presence of the templars, the Quanri invade Kirkwall and his urge to help is underminned by the chance that he may draw the templars attention and cause an even worse predicament for the mages then they already have. So with a regretful heart he asks you, his friend 'Hawke', to stop the Qunari. With but narrow success, you stop the invasion.

It then becomes to much for the troubled mage to handle, as he finally sees the mages will never be free and that they need to take a stand. So with a resolute and coffidant plan...

He Blows up the Chantry with his Macguyver like skills severing any chance that the templars and mages will ever be at peace again.

His fate is then given to you, 'Hawke', and from there the troubled mage runs.


Anders.
He is truley the main hero of Dragon Age 2.

Anyone disagree?

Well the crazy Fanatic Resolutionist thing has been done before, but if Anders was the main character in DA2 then Magneto must have been the main charecter in X-men The Last Stand, or X-men 1 for that matter

Pretty much yea.

No one X-man really had any main character role.

But when magneto arrived, he was the one everyone knew and everyone tried to stop.
his lackeys were tacky (and my ryhmes are a crime) and he stood out amongst all others.
The only one close to comparrison was Xaiver, but sadly he didn't have nearly the amount of impact Magneto did.

[GearRust]

Xewaka wrote...

GearRust wrote...
Not exactly.
Think about how people would talk about the event after it happended.
Meredith would have been the most unpopular person to mages in all of Thedas
Anders would still be the catalyst that started the entire event through inner conflict.
You are right to say that he is a plot device.
But, aren't all heroes plot devices in the never ending story of history, including Thedases?

Plot devices can be heroes, heroes need not be plot devices. As a matter of fact, heroes in most media are defenders of the status quo, intervening only when forces outside their influence put the events into motion. Most protagonist are not plot enablers, but plot coasters.
Besides, as I see it, the Champion of Kirkwall is basically a profiteer. He may not have set the events in motion, but he tries to take the most gain out of it. The story of Hawke is, in short, the story of a person who took his chances when presented.
He is not the man that changed the world: He is the man that saw the world changing and profitted from it.
However, we're still being told his story, and thus he is the main character. The main character needs not be the hero, needs not be the plot device. He needs only be the character taking the brunt of the storytelling.

Hmmmm, I quite like this post, thankyou .

I can't really disagree with you on the merrits of the hero or main character, for you have quite nicely summed him up in a short paragraph (very nice).

The only thing that I have been lead to believe is that with Dragon Age 2, being that of an Epic Fantasy Game, usually leads the player on a quest that enevitably takes them to greater heights become a powerful warrior that saved the lands, stopped evil, uncovered dark secrets, etc.

Though I see now this game may have been taking another approuch, thankyou for the new perspective.

I don't find it to be that enticing of one however, as movies seem to best describe this, as games have always explored the unreal and fantastic (not to say movies havent).

I would still have to say in the respect of be an Epic Fantasy game, in the end Anders was the one who made the choice that mattered, and hence was the latent main character.

In the respect of the hero (of a movie (to my perspective)), then Hawke would definently be the main character.

Well played ser, well played