264 réponses à ce sujet

[wojciec]

Gyrannon wrote...

xkg wrote...

Gyrannon wrote...

xkg wrote...

ashwind wrote...
You all do realize that Varric is actually Hawke right?

The truth is:
Bianca is not a crossbow but Varric/Hawke's (Var-awke) lover (That is why Var-awke is NOT carrying it while being interrogated) and Meredith is his lover too.

Meredith hated mages and wanted to kill them all because Var-awke tried to run away with Bianca. Meredit is MAD not mad and there is no lyrium idol - tis actually a gift from Var-awke.

The Chantry is actually where all the phylactery are being stored and Var-awke blew the Chantry up to cover his tracks - and he blame Anders for it. We all know Anders is not gay from Awakening - so he is lying!

Kirkwall is totally destroyed in the end and Var-awke is spreading tall tales about this "Champion" to Thades so that nobody will ever find out about the truth.
-----------
Gyrannon wrote...
You do realize that you posted a SPOILER in a "NO SPOILERS ALOWED" section of the forums Right? Just checking, an thanks for ruining the story for me. You certainly have demonstrated your intellectual trait, I solute you!
-----------
no he didnt - what he did here is pure fiction and have nothing to do with game so stop throwing .... blindly around

So Kirkwall doesnt get destroyed in the end? Hawk doesn't destroy the Chantry?
A mention of a character from DA2, an organization in DA, and a city in DA2 is not part of the game?
All that has nothing to do with DA2, riiight.....

w8 how can you know that ???
first you have said : "thanks for ruining the story for me"
but now it seems you have already finished game so how could he ruin your story ayway - you missed logic somwhere along the road

HELLO! Dragon Age has the "the chantry" in it! Every fan of da2 is posting pictures of "my hawke" (who is also seen in trailers) and Kirkwall is mentioned here on the DA2 game site (http://dragonage.bio...ments/kirkwall/). 
Seems like you made a "Pathetic Trap" cause I already knew about the character Hawke - I however do not know what happens in the end. The Chantry being an organization in DAO that believes "We must send our preyers to the four corners of the world for the Maker to forgive us" tells me they are all over the world. And the game site for DA2 isn't going to mention Kirkwall if it's not going to be in the game. OMFG! I knew about three things that has to do WITH Dragon Age in GENERAL, and your logic tells you that because I have knowledge of those 3 things in the game that I've already beaten the game??? I think YOU missed your logic somewhere along the road. 

Aveline is Hawke's sister's uncle's brother's former roommate.

[AtreiyaN7]

*rolleyes* So, I didn't assign attribute points or pick talents or anything when I was playing DA2? I didn't decide where to go and what order to do my quests in? I didn't make a decision affecting my second sibling joining the Wardens/Templars/Circle/dying? I didn't choose what I wanted to say? I didn't make decisions determining whether or not my companions stayed or left?

Oh wait, I did all those things when I was playing DA2. *snort*

[Aermas]

Deadmac wrote...

This is a real rpg: http://white-wolf.com/
This is also a real rpg: http://www.wizards.com/DnD/

Personally, if you have never ever played a real-life table-top rpg, you have absolutely no idea what one actually looks like. Almost every pc and console game that carries the label is not an rpg.

"Diablo I, II, & III" - Not an rpg.
"Dragon Age: I & II" - Not an rpg.
"Oblivion"? - Not an rpg.
"Star Wars: The Old Republic I & II" - Not an rpg.
"Neverwinter Nights: I & II" - Not an rpg.
"Enter your pc/console game title here" - Not an rpg.

Not a single damn one of them.

When it comes to placing a 'j' or 'w' before the word rpg, I think people do it to rationalize a game's failure to be an actual rpg.

Quoted for Truth.

[erynnar]

Baelyn wrote...

wojciec wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

wojciec wrote...

Fixed

I sided with the mages. That's not doing nothing.

If you did something else, then *gasp* you made a choice! OMZ! A game with choices! **** me twice and call it a Sunday!

which resulted in the same exact thing - circles rose up to fight the templars, wow what a great choice. It really illustrates how people can be given 2 options that ultimately lead to the same thing ang be so happy about it:)

And Origins was so different right? Is it so hard for people to toss the rose colored glasses and see that every game uses the illusion of choice?

Ah I am willing to play this game. Yes, DAO had the illusion of choice and so does DA2, but DAO did it better. DA2 was ham fisted, shallow, and beat you over the head with a bludgeon while laughing as your illusion of choice was like tissue paper.  I knew nothing I was doing was going to do squat.  

In DAO, I knew what was going to happen for the ending of the big baddie. But it often made me stop and pause to consider my other smaller choices...Harrowmont/Bhelen, Wynne--alive or dead?, Loghain--alive or dead (and that made Alistair stay or go, which had reprocussions; save Connor, give him to the Desire Demon, kill Isobela (always a good choice) or go to the Circle, Kill Leliana over the Urn of Sacred Ashes (OH WAIT, snicker, snert, snort, HAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!! that didn't happen even if you did it) etc. etc. etc..

DAO didn't end with the Archdemon dead on top of the tower to pan away to credits.  It contintued on with the consequences of your illusions of choice.  DA2 ended in a shoddy half done manner, dangling you in a cliff hanger--which my cynical snark side says is for another money grab since your choices in DAO didn't matter one crapload in DA2, so it sure as hell isn't going to matter what you chose in DA2 either. But my nicer side says it will matter and I should just be patient. It is hard to know which side of my convo wheel is winning. 

End result...I could eat rich, dark, melt on your finger dark chocolate made from a good chocolatier, or I can have waxy, stiff, chewy chocolate from that some other chocolatier.  One is quality, one is not. They are both still chocolate, and I can enjoy M&Ms but I don't love them like I love Vosege's chocolate. I expect higher quality from one company than the other. This company is the higher end of quality, and they gave me M&Ms for the price of a good quality chocolate bar.  Hmmm, now I need chocolate...:happy: Change doesn't always = good.

[Aermas]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

wojciec wrote...

Fixed

I sided with the mages. That's not doing nothing.

If you did something else, then *gasp* you made a choice! OMZ! A game with choices! **** me twice and call it a Sunday!

Ah, I see you need us to talk with smaller words.
If I choose to do something in a game, that choice should have different consequences than another choice. Simplely saying "Hey, you can side with the mages or the templars is fine as long as the gameplay achieves a different result. Sadly it does not. You're argument is invalid

[gotthammer]

Aermas wrote...

Deadmac wrote...

This is a real rpg: http://white-wolf.com/
This is also a real rpg: http://www.wizards.com/DnD/

Personally, if you have never ever played a real-life table-top rpg, you have absolutely no idea what one actually looks like. Almost every pc and console game that carries the label is not an rpg.

"Diablo I, II, & III" - Not an rpg.
"Dragon Age: I & II" - Not an rpg.
"Oblivion"? - Not an rpg.
"Star Wars: The Old Republic I & II" - Not an rpg.
"Neverwinter Nights: I & II" - Not an rpg.
"Enter your pc/console game title here" - Not an rpg.

Not a single damn one of them.

When it comes to placing a 'j' or 'w' before the word rpg, I think people do it to rationalize a game's failure to be an actual rpg.

Quoted for Truth.

To an extent I'd have to agree w/ Deadmac.

PnP RPGs just have the flexibility that CRPGs (whether they're JCRPGs or WCRPGs) can't, as of yet, replicate.
A human storyteller/gamesmaster/dungeon master can provide more options or potential outcomes than any CRPG ever made.
He/she also has the benefit of the greatest graphics engine ever made: the human imagination.
(even sound, to some extent: I've had DMs/GMs bring audio players, while some are really good at projecting the persona of their NPCs. Of course depending on the imagination of a player has it's pros and cons: for one, the player/s will most likely have different images in their heads even if the DM/GM is very capable; this is why I think atmosphere, not just graphical quality, is important in CRPGs: they are visual media, everything is laid out and little, IMHO, should be left to the imagination)

That said, CRPGs are, still, in a way, RPGs. They let you play a role w/ a set mechanic, just with more limitations than the pen-and-paper variety. CRPGs are also 'more accessible': the fact that you don't have to call together people to play a game is a big thing (I haven't played tabletop/PnP in over two years).

Is DA:O an RPG? Yeah. Is DA2? Sure (too streamlined, IMHO, but, sure, it's an RPG )
But both are CRPGs, with whatever limitations and benefits that may entail.

Oh, and while I did like White Wolf's oWoD, I think my current favourite is Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay (1st Edition. Haven't really gone over the 2nd Ed. rules) 

[Mantaal]

gotthammer wrote...

Aermas wrote...

Deadmac wrote...

This is a real rpg: http://white-wolf.com/
This is also a real rpg: http://www.wizards.com/DnD/

Personally, if you have never ever played a real-life table-top rpg, you have absolutely no idea what one actually looks like. Almost every pc and console game that carries the label is not an rpg.

"Diablo I, II, & III" - Not an rpg.
"Dragon Age: I & II" - Not an rpg.
"Oblivion"? - Not an rpg.
"Star Wars: The Old Republic I & II" - Not an rpg.
"Neverwinter Nights: I & II" - Not an rpg.
"Enter your pc/console game title here" - Not an rpg.

Not a single damn one of them.

When it comes to placing a 'j' or 'w' before the word rpg, I think people do it to rationalize a game's failure to be an actual rpg.

Quoted for Truth.

To an extent I'd have to agree w/ Deadmac.

PnP RPGs just have the flexibility that CRPGs (whether they're JCRPGs or WCRPGs) can't, as of yet, replicate.
A human storyteller/gamesmaster/dungeon master can provide more options or potential outcomes than any CRPG ever made.
He/she also has the benefit of the greatest graphics engine ever made: the human imagination.
(even sound, to some extent: I've had DMs/GMs bring audio players, while some are really good at projecting the persona of their NPCs. Of course depending on the imagination of a player has it's pros and cons: for one, the player/s will most likely have different images in their heads even if the DM/GM is very capable; this is why I think atmosphere, not just graphical quality, is important in CRPGs: they are visual media, everything is laid out and little, IMHO, should be left to the imagination)

That said, CRPGs are, still, in a way, RPGs. They let you play a role w/ a set mechanic, just with more limitations than the pen-and-paper variety. CRPGs are also 'more accessible': the fact that you don't have to call together people to play a game is a big thing (I haven't played tabletop/PnP in over two years).

Is DA:O an RPG? Yeah. Is DA2? Sure (too streamlined, IMHO, but, sure, it's an RPG )
But both are CRPGs, with whatever limitations and benefits that may entail.

Oh, and while I did like White Wolf's oWoD, I think my current favourite is Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay (1st Edition. Haven't really gone over the 2nd Ed. rules) 

Well i think DA2 is a RPG Lite. Since you cant really create an Character and the story was
"you have to help me!" 
"no"
"i dont care what you say you have to do it" 
"ok" 

Its more like Diablo. There might be a RPG label on a Diablo Box but its in the grey zone. I would not consider it an RPG in my personal Opinion but peoples have different opinions.

But when i go to a Shop and want to buy an RPG i really would not get Diablo in mind.

When i play an RPG i want to play the Role of my Avatar. I want to make him say what i want him to say. I want different options for his background and/or future.
Bioware did a good job in the past to have those Options.
My Baldurs Gate storys ending was "i did refuse to be an Evil God and was mortal at the end"
"-I did not make an Child with Morrigan and died with honor"
-"i refused to eat the souls of the Ghosts and tryed to be a good Man even with a Tainted Curse on me"
-"I saved the Alien Leaders of the Citadel"
In DA2 i just played the Hawke Guy and did the one and only path he could go. It was more like an Interactive Fantasy Movie and depp inside a bit of a RPG.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

gotthammer wrote...
Is DA:O an RPG? Yeah. Is DA2? Sure (too streamlined, IMHO, but, sure, it's an RPG )
But both are CRPGs, with whatever limitations and benefits that may entail.

Except that in DA 2 I don't have a character to role play. Hawke is not my character. Imaginary tales character like Hawke doesn't make sense to be role-played. He's not real. He has unknown status.He doesn't fit as role play character. Everything you did as Hawke is meaningless once you get to the end. You are back to square one and accomplish nothing. Everything already happen  It's like living a dream. Once you wake up, what do you get?

Nothing.
It's all illusion from Varric tales.
And where are you now, Hawke?

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 10 avril 2011 - 12:25 .

[gotthammer]

[quote]Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

But both are CRPGs, with whatever limitations and benefits that may entail.[/quote]
Except that in DA 2 I don't have a character to role play. Hawke is not my character.

[/quote]

Well, no one ever said that all RPGs have to be played with YOUR character. Some of my best PnP experiences were w/ pre-generated characters. (one or two from Call of Cthulhu, another from old World of Darkness, if memory serves)
By 'strict'/'technical' definition, DA2 is an RPG. RPG lite? Sure. Over-simplified and 'on rails', yeah. 

I do get your point, tho' , and agree. Hawke didn't feel like 'mine', either. Heck, it took me a while to get over the fact when I first heard that the 'sequel' to Dragon Age: Origins wouldn't be with 'my Warden'. 
I really wanted to like DA2...but too many shortcomings, one of them is, as you stated, that disconnect between player and character.

But I'd still call it a 'CRPG'. You still do play 'a role' (and the mechanics, no matter how streamlined, are still consistent w/ being an RPG)...regardless of whether you 'connected' with that role or not.

Come on, BioWare: Free Enhanced Edition for DA2, please! 

Modifié par gotthammer, 10 avril 2011 - 12:49 .

[Sacred_Fantasy]

gotthammer wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
But both are CRPGs, with whatever limitations and benefits that may entail.

Except that in DA 2 I don't have a character to role play. Hawke is not my character.


Well, no one ever said that all RPGs have to be played with YOUR character. Some of my best PnP experiences were w/ pre-generated characters. (one or two from Call of Cthulhu, another from old World of Darkness, if memory serves)
By 'strict'/'technical' definition, DA2 is an RPG. RPG lite? Sure. Over-simplified and 'on rails', yeah. 

I do get your point, tho' , and agree. Hawke didn't feel like 'mine', either. Heck, it took me a while to get over the fact when I first heard that the 'sequel' to Dragon Age: Origins wouldn't be with 'my Warden'. 
I really wanted to like DA2...but too many shortcomings, one of them is, as you stated, that disconnect between player and character.

But I'd still call it a 'CRPG'. You still do play 'a role' (and the mechanics, no matter how streamlined, are still consistent w/ being an RPG)...regardless of whether you 'connected' with that role or not.

So, in term of RPG,  we can now agree that we can define Hawke as Non Player Character or NPC?

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 10 avril 2011 - 12:45 .

[Tirigon]

barryl89 wrote...

I'd love to know how many of you have played Demons Souls? Its a japanese made game but it is nothing like FF. Only on the PS3 mind and some of you elitits might instantly go all superior because of that.

Silent character. A few voiced NPCs.
The best combat ever. Amazing boss fights. Realistic world. Absorbing athmosphere.

But PS3 only. I´m not going to spend hundreds of €  on a sh!t box for just one game.

[gotthammer]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

So, in term of RPG,  we can now agree that we can define Hawke as Non Player Character or NPC?

Hehehe. Nah. We still control him/her. Heck, even the protagonist in DA:O was 'pre-generated'  (each Origin had set, unchangeable outcomes: for one, all of you end up as Warden).

Methinks, the main problem w/ Hawke goes all the way back to how/why the game feels rushed: there isn't enough time to flesh out Hawke.
Take the noble Cousland, as an example: him/her and his/her family are pretty much fleshed out before 'stuff happens' so you end up caring more about what happens.
There isn't enough time for Hawke and family in DA2, nor does it feel that the efforts to flesh them out later were effective.
He/She's still our character...but we're disconnected from him/her because of the story/plot/narrative. Because, I think, the game was rushed: not enough exposition, not enough build-up/fleshing out, and too many gaps in the story, particularly between the transition from one act to another.

Gah. I hope that made sense. 

[Gatt9]

Aermas wrote...

Deadmac wrote...

This is a real rpg: http://white-wolf.com/
This is also a real rpg: http://www.wizards.com/DnD/

Personally, if you have never ever played a real-life table-top rpg, you have absolutely no idea what one actually looks like. Almost every pc and console game that carries the label is not an rpg.

"Diablo I, II, & III" - Not an rpg.
"Dragon Age: I & II" - Not an rpg.
"Oblivion"? - Not an rpg.
"Star Wars: The Old Republic I & II" - Not an rpg.
"Neverwinter Nights: I & II" - Not an rpg.
"Enter your pc/console game title here" - Not an rpg.

Not a single damn one of them.

When it comes to placing a 'j' or 'w' before the word rpg, I think people do it to rationalize a game's failure to be an actual rpg.

Quoted for Truth.

Bad idea,  he's wrong on pretty much all counts.

Diablo 1, 2, and 3 are all RPGs,  they are hack & slash variants,  all feature defined characters and are character skill based (Vs Player skill based).

Dragon Age Origins is an RPG,  it features a defined character and is character skill based.

Oblivion is not an RPG.  The character definitions are illusionary,  and the game is player skill based.  Due to level scaling,  leveling and character definition are illusionary,  you can strip the whole thing out and the game functions just the same.

Star Wars 1 and 2 are RPGs,  they feature defined characters and are character skill based.

Etc.

His problem is,  he's forgotten Dragonlance.  He's forgotten that it's been accepted for 30 years that you could have predefined Roles with a story with a predefined outcome.  That precedent was followed with a number of further modules that featured similiar play in a wide variety of settings and systems. 

The issue he claims prevents these games from being RPGs doesn't exist,  and was widely accepted over 3 decades ago.  He's failing to recognize that the only precursers for being an RPG are a defined Character and a Character Skill based system,  from there,  there's numerous subgenres(Munchkin,  Hack & Slash,  High magic,  Low magic,  Structured story,  Unstructured story,  etc.).

Basically,  take any system he puts forward,  and devise a dungeon that the player just "finds" and goes from room to room killing without ever conversing or making a non-combat decision,  it works perfectly within all systems,  and you just got Diablo. 

Then pick up the original Dragonlance modules and run a campaign with them.  You just got DAO,  Star Wars,  and many other cRPGs.

Then take FF13,  none of your leveling has any meaning,  nor does you skills,  it's a linear progression of predetermined battles with little risk to you and no interaction on the player's part.  It seems to define a character,  like Oblivion,  but when tested the definition proves to be illusionary.

[Eterna]

A lot of people don;t seem to know what RPG means..........

[Sarielle]

xkg wrote...

ashwind wrote...
You all do realize that Varric is actually Hawke right?

The truth is:
Bianca is not a crossbow but Varric/Hawke's (Var-awke) lover (That is why Var-awke is NOT carrying it while being interrogated) and Meredith is his lover too.

Meredith hated mages and wanted to kill them all because Var-awke tried to run away with Bianca. Meredit is MAD not mad and there is no lyrium idol - tis actually a gift from Var-awke.

The Chantry is actually where all the phylactery are being stored and Var-awke blew the Chantry up to cover his tracks - and he blame Anders for it. We all know Anders is not gay from Awakening - so he is lying!

Kirkwall is totally destroyed in the end and Var-awke is spreading tall tales about this "Champion" to Thades so that nobody will ever find out about the truth.

-----------

Gyrannon wrote...
You do realize that you posted a SPOILER in a "NO SPOILERS ALOWED" section of the forums Right? Just checking, an thanks for ruining the story for me. You certainly have demonstrated your intellectual trait, I solute you!


-----------

no he didnt - what he did here is pure fiction and have nothing to do with game so stop throwing .... blindly around

I got totally distracted from the point of this thread trying to decide if this person is just full of "deeeeerp" or a pretty damn good troll.

[Mantaal]

Gatt9 wrote...

Aermas wrote...

Deadmac wrote...

This is a real rpg: http://white-wolf.com/
This is also a real rpg: http://www.wizards.com/DnD/

Personally, if you have never ever played a real-life table-top rpg, you have absolutely no idea what one actually looks like. Almost every pc and console game that carries the label is not an rpg.

"Diablo I, II, & III" - Not an rpg.
"Dragon Age: I & II" - Not an rpg.
"Oblivion"? - Not an rpg.
"Star Wars: The Old Republic I & II" - Not an rpg.
"Neverwinter Nights: I & II" - Not an rpg.
"Enter your pc/console game title here" - Not an rpg.

Not a single damn one of them.

When it comes to placing a 'j' or 'w' before the word rpg, I think people do it to rationalize a game's failure to be an actual rpg.

Quoted for Truth.

Bad idea,  he's wrong on pretty much all counts.

Diablo 1, 2, and 3 are all RPGs,  they are hack & slash variants,  all feature defined characters and are character skill based (Vs Player skill based).

If Diablo is an RPG , Dead Space is an RPG also.

[Deadmac]

Eterna5 wrote...

A lot of people don;t seem to know what RPG means..........

Lol... After seeing the post above yours, I can 100% say your statement is correct.

If people got into table-top role playing games (rpgs), they will definitely see the differences between the two. "Dragon Age II" loses out on being called an rpg because of the voiced player character. Anything that takes 'you' out of playing a 'role' automatically disqualifies it from being called a "role"-playing game. During many points in your character interactions, Hawke replies to npcs without any dialogue being clicked. Other words, the player is no longer 'role'-playing, and the character's personality is being played by preset (coded) switches.

When the player character is silent, your mind creates the personality of the character (through your imagination). All your player character's vocal responses are your own, for you are playing the 'role' out according to how 'you' think the dialogue is being expressed. Once "Dragon Age II" replaced your imagination with preset vocals, the game became something entirely different than "Dragon Age: Origins". "Dragon Age II" has more in common with "BioShock" than "Dragon Age: Origins".

Since many people have not played a table-top rpg, I can see how this may be a hard concept to grasp.

Modifié par Deadmac, 10 avril 2011 - 01:41 .

[Sacred_Fantasy]

gotthammer wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

So, in term of RPG,  we can now agree that we can define Hawke as Non Player Character or NPC?

Hehehe. Nah. We still control him/her. Heck, even the protagonist in DA:O was 'pre-generated'  (each Origin had set, unchangeable outcomes: for one, all of you end up as Warden).

Methinks, the main problem w/ Hawke goes all the way back to how/why the game feels rushed: there isn't enough time to flesh out Hawke.
Take the noble Cousland, as an example: him/her and his/her family are pretty much fleshed out before 'stuff happens' so you end up caring more about what happens.
There isn't enough time for Hawke and family in DA2, nor does it feel that the efforts to flesh them out later were effective.
He/She's still our character...but we're disconnected from him/her because of the story/plot/narrative. Because, I think, the game was rushed: not enough exposition, not enough build-up/fleshing out, and too many gaps in the story, particularly between the transition from one act to another.

Gah. I hope that made sense. 

Yes. That make sense. I hope BioWare will learn from this. It's their responsibility as the dungeon master to make sure their players are not disconnected from their characters due to poor story/plot/narrative, not enough exposition, not enough fleshing out, too many gaps in the story etc...

Deadmac wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

A lot of people don;t seem to know what RPG means..........

Lol... After seeing the post above yours, I can 100% say your statement is correct.

If people got into table-top role playing games (rpgs), they will definitely see the differences between the two. "Dragon Age II" loses out on being called an rpg because of the voiced player character. Anything that takes 'you' out of playing a 'role' automatically disqualifies it from being called a "role"-playing game. During many points in your character interaction, Hawke replies to npcs without any dialogue being clicked. Other words, the player is no longer 'role'-playing, and the character's personality is being played by preset (coded) switches.

 
I'm with you on this. Which is why I mainly attack on Hawke existent/status as player character. Too many disconnections in DA 2 that kick me out of game.  

[Tommy6860]

[quote]erynnar wrote...

[quote]Baelyn wrote...

[quote]wojciec wrote...

[quote]ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

[quote]wojciec wrote...

Fixed
[/quote]

I sided with the mages. That's not doing nothing.

If you did something else, then *gasp* you made a choice! OMZ! A game with choices! **** me twice and call it a Sunday!

[/quote]
which resulted in the same exact thing - circles rose up to fight the templars, wow what a great choice. It really illustrates how people can be given 2 options that ultimately lead to the same thing ang be so happy about it:)[/quote]

And Origins was so different right? Is it so hard for people to toss the rose colored glasses and see that every game uses the illusion of choice?

[/quote]

Ah I am willing to play this game. Yes, DAO had the illusion of choice and so does DA2, but DAO did it better. DA2 was ham fisted, shallow, and beat you over the head with a bludgeon while laughing as your illusion of choice was like tissue paper.  I knew nothing I was doing was going to do squat.  

In DAO, I knew what was going to happen for the ending of the big baddie. But it often made me stop and pause to consider my other smaller choices...Harrowmont/Bhelen, Wynne--alive or dead?, Loghain--alive or dead (and that made Alistair stay or go, which had reprocussions; save Connor, give him to the Desire Demon, kill Isobela (always a good choice) or go to the Circle, Kill Leliana over the Urn of Sacred Ashes (OH WAIT, snicker, snert, snort, HAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!! that didn't happen even if you did it) etc. etc. etc..

DAO didn't end with the Archdemon dead on top of the tower to pan away to credits.  It contintued on with the consequences of your illusions of choice.  DA2 ended in a shoddy half done manner, dangling you in a cliff hanger--which my cynical snark side says is for another money grab since your choices in DAO didn't matter one crapload in DA2, so it sure as hell isn't going to matter what you chose in DA2 either. But my nicer side says it will matter and I should just be patient. It is hard to know which side of my convo wheel is winning. 

End result...I could eat rich, dark, melt on your finger dark chocolate made from a good chocolatier, or I can have waxy, stiff, chewy chocolate from that some other chocolatier.  One is quality, one is not. They are both still chocolate, and I can enjoy M&Ms but I don't love them like I love Vosege's chocolate. I expect higher quality from one company than the other. This company is the higher end of quality, and they gave me M&Ms for the price of a good quality chocolate bar.  Hmmm, now I need chocolate...:happy: Change doesn't always = good.

[/quot]

<snort> After reading your reply, the last sentence was just classic! TY, I enjoy a good rejoinder with hints of a  repartee.

Modifié par Tommy6860, 10 avril 2011 - 01:50 .

[Baelyn]

erynnar wrote...

Baelyn wrote...

wojciec wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

wojciec wrote...

Fixed

I sided with the mages. That's not doing nothing.

If you did something else, then *gasp* you made a choice! OMZ! A game with choices! **** me twice and call it a Sunday!

which resulted in the same exact thing - circles rose up to fight the templars, wow what a great choice. It really illustrates how people can be given 2 options that ultimately lead to the same thing ang be so happy about it:)

And Origins was so different right? Is it so hard for people to toss the rose colored glasses and see that every game uses the illusion of choice?

Ah I am willing to play this game. Yes, DAO had the illusion of choice and so does DA2, but DAO did it better. DA2 was ham fisted, shallow, and beat you over the head with a bludgeon while laughing as your illusion of choice was like tissue paper.  I knew nothing I was doing was going to do squat.  

In DAO, I knew what was going to happen for the ending of the big baddie. But it often made me stop and pause to consider my other smaller choices...Harrowmont/Bhelen, Wynne--alive or dead?, Loghain--alive or dead (and that made Alistair stay or go, which had reprocussions; save Connor, give him to the Desire Demon, kill Isobela (always a good choice) or go to the Circle, Kill Leliana over the Urn of Sacred Ashes (OH WAIT, snicker, snert, snort, HAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!! that didn't happen even if you did it) etc. etc. etc..

DAO didn't end with the Archdemon dead on top of the tower to pan away to credits.  It contintued on with the consequences of your illusions of choice.  DA2 ended in a shoddy half done manner, dangling you in a cliff hanger--which my cynical snark side says is for another money grab since your choices in DAO didn't matter one crapload in DA2, so it sure as hell isn't going to matter what you chose in DA2 either. But my nicer side says it will matter and I should just be patient. It is hard to know which side of my convo wheel is winning. 

End result...I could eat rich, dark, melt on your finger dark chocolate made from a good chocolatier, or I can have waxy, stiff, chewy chocolate from that some other chocolatier.  One is quality, one is not. They are both still chocolate, and I can enjoy M&Ms but I don't love them like I love Vosege's chocolate. I expect higher quality from one company than the other. This company is the higher end of quality, and they gave me M&Ms for the price of a good quality chocolate bar.  Hmmm, now I need chocolate...:happy: Change doesn't always = good.

If I didn't have to start a server maintenance right now I would gladly like to respond to all of this.

Basically all of the choices you mentioned about DA:O were inconsequential choices because they had little to  nothing to do with the main plot. DA2 has these as well. If I had more time I'd write up a good list (maybe I'll come back to it later.)

And yes, I am now eating chocolate. Thank you. 

[gotthammer]

 @Diablo being an RPG/CRPG:It is. Sure it isn't as 'deep' as some of BioWare's games, but it is still a CRPG.(you have a role, there are mechanics, there's still a story, etc. And, yes, by that definition, a LOT of games are RPGs. It just falls under another kind of CRPG, the action/hack-and-slash variety...like DA2, to some extent )
I wouldn't readily call Dead Space 2 a CRPG, tho'...maybe if I use the term more 'loosely'
 
(then again, if one were to put DS2 and ME2 side by side...the only thing ME2 has more are the choices, dialogue/interactions, and it's 'supposed' to be an RPG. Because, mechanics-wise, they're pretty close if one looks beyond the superficial differences: ME2 levels you up w/ XP; DS2 does pretty much the same: makes your character more effective in combat by progressing through the environment)

And I'd like to think I know what an RPG is:
Systems I've played:
- Chaosium's system of Call of Cthulhu (as well as Delta Green)
- White Wolf's system for old WoD and Exalted
- D&D 3E
- WFRP (current favourite)
- L5R
- some HERO (7th? I forget. I had the DM handle everything for this one, just to give me the basics. the size of the rulebook made my head hurt just looking at it)
- Holistic's Fading Suns
- FASA's Shadowrun (I love that setting)
- some homebrews- stuff I've probably forgotten already
I've made my own characters and played w/ pre-generated characters. I've played w/ good GMs and bad ones. I've even tried my hand at it (I'd much rather be a player).If we're talking other tabletop: I've played CCGs (MtG, L5R, AGoT, LotR, etc.), WH40k, and Warmachine.

Some (many?) CRPGs may not fall into the 'perfect slot' of what some may consider a 'traditional RPG', but they are still RPGs.

re: voiced vs silent protagonistYes, the silent protagonist makes it easier (for some, but not all, I guess. I prefer the silent protagonist, but some, apparently, prefer voiced characters) to 'get into the role'.On the other hand, having a voiced protagonist doesn't necessarily detract from the experience PROVIDED it is done well, IMHO (which, IMHO, WASN'T the case with DA2).
Being 'taken out of the role', because of bad storytelling (or voice acting, but I can't fault the voices...only the writing/pacing/narrative), doesn't mean a game ISN'T an RPG. It's just not a good one... 

Bah. Whatever. I blame the long, potentially non-sensical post above to  the slow update.
(disappointment in DA2 = re-installing old games = re-installing Company of Heroes from scratch = slow update 
 )

I wish BioWare would just pick up a decent system, like WFRP, and make a CRPG out of that w/ the same, or better, quality than DA:O.
I'd be real happy if they did.
*thinks about re-reading the funny Witch Hunter's manual from Black Library* 

edit: gah. post messed up:o

Modifié par gotthammer, 10 avril 2011 - 02:30 .

[Mantaal]

Baelyn wrote...

erynnar wrote...

Baelyn wrote...

wojciec wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

wojciec wrote...

Fixed

I sided with the mages. That's not doing nothing.

If you did something else, then *gasp* you made a choice! OMZ! A game with choices! **** me twice and call it a Sunday!

which resulted in the same exact thing - circles rose up to fight the templars, wow what a great choice. It really illustrates how people can be given 2 options that ultimately lead to the same thing ang be so happy about it:)

And Origins was so different right? Is it so hard for people to toss the rose colored glasses and see that every game uses the illusion of choice?

Ah I am willing to play this game. Yes, DAO had the illusion of choice and so does DA2, but DAO did it better. DA2 was ham fisted, shallow, and beat you over the head with a bludgeon while laughing as your illusion of choice was like tissue paper.  I knew nothing I was doing was going to do squat.  

In DAO, I knew what was going to happen for the ending of the big baddie. But it often made me stop and pause to consider my other smaller choices...Harrowmont/Bhelen, Wynne--alive or dead?, Loghain--alive or dead (and that made Alistair stay or go, which had reprocussions; save Connor, give him to the Desire Demon, kill Isobela (always a good choice) or go to the Circle, Kill Leliana over the Urn of Sacred Ashes (OH WAIT, snicker, snert, snort, HAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!! that didn't happen even if you did it) etc. etc. etc..

DAO didn't end with the Archdemon dead on top of the tower to pan away to credits.  It contintued on with the consequences of your illusions of choice.  DA2 ended in a shoddy half done manner, dangling you in a cliff hanger--which my cynical snark side says is for another money grab since your choices in DAO didn't matter one crapload in DA2, so it sure as hell isn't going to matter what you chose in DA2 either. But my nicer side says it will matter and I should just be patient. It is hard to know which side of my convo wheel is winning. 

End result...I could eat rich, dark, melt on your finger dark chocolate made from a good chocolatier, or I can have waxy, stiff, chewy chocolate from that some other chocolatier.  One is quality, one is not. They are both still chocolate, and I can enjoy M&Ms but I don't love them like I love Vosege's chocolate. I expect higher quality from one company than the other. This company is the higher end of quality, and they gave me M&Ms for the price of a good quality chocolate bar.  Hmmm, now I need chocolate...:happy: Change doesn't always = good.

If I didn't have to start a server maintenance right now I would gladly like to respond to all of this.

Basically all of the choices you mentioned about DA:O were inconsequential choices because they had little to  nothing to do with the main plot. DA2 has these as well. If I had more time I'd write up a good list (maybe I'll come back to it later.)

And yes, I am now eating chocolate. Thank you. 

The Main Character Dies in the end "had little to nothing to do with the main plot? Or -Killing all Elves or Curing the Werewolfes Or -Help one of the Dwarves to be the King? or -make a Child with Morrigen or -destroying the Anvil of the Ancients?
Wtf?
The Main Plot is about your Charakter and Ferelden who got invaded by the Blight. All those choices involve the Warden and/or Ferelden.

[wowpwnslol]

Eterna5 wrote...

A lot of people don;t seem to know what RPG means..........

What do you expect? Most users on this forum were born in late 90's and raised on consoles.

[TRUTHMACHINE]

barryl89 wrote...

I'd love to know how many of you have played Demons Souls? Its a japanese made game but it is nothing like FF. Only on the PS3 mind and some of you elitits might instantly go all superior because of that.

Silent character. A few voiced NPCs.
The best combat ever. Amazing boss fights. Realistic world. Absorbing athmosphere.

Demons Souls was one of the best games of 2009. One of the best action Rpg's EVER! btw look up Dark Souls. its the "sequel" to Demons Souls.