35 réponses à ce sujet

[Stephenc13]

 that the whole uprising of the mages was caused by Hawke's seemingly insignificant arrival in Kirkwall?

[Merced652]

You mean my bro bro isn't important? HOW DARE YOU

[Darth Krytie]

Hawke's arrival is like "like the falling of small stones that starts an avalanche in the mountains", indeed.

[Plaintiff]

...Not really. There are several contributing factors. Hawke is important because without the neutral parties of the Viscount and Grand Cleric (neutral my ass), his position as Champion of Kirkwall makes him the tie-breaker.

[Torax]

Darth Krytie wrote...

Hawke's arrival is like "like the falling of small stones that starts an avalanche in the mountains", indeed.

"A butterfly flaps it's wings in Time Square..."

[Stephenc13]

Plaintiff wrote...

...Not really. There are several contributing factors. Hawke is important because without the neutral parties of the Viscount and Grand Cleric (neutral my ass), his position as Champion of Kirkwall makes him the tie-breaker.

Think about if he never arrived at all... What would have happened?

[Maria Caliban]

Anders still would have blown up the Chantry if Hawke never arrived. Kirkwall still would have been crawling with blood mages and abominations. Meredith would still be paranoid, strict, and drive the Circle mages to use forbidden magics and attempt to escape.

[GearRust]

Stephenc13 wrote...

 that the whole uprising of the mages was caused by Hawke's seemingly insignificant arrival in Kirkwall?

It wasn't, it was just the story of a dwarf telling a seeker about the guy who knew Anders, the guy who was actually responsible of the rising.

Hawke has absolutely no importance.

It was Anders.

[tanuki]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Anders still would have blown up the Chantry if Hawke never arrived. Kirkwall still would have been crawling with blood mages and abominations. Meredith would still be paranoid, strict, and drive the Circle mages to use forbidden magics and attempt to escape.

Anders would be more likely caught and tranquilized/killed long before he even manage to make an attempt to blow the chantry. And Meridith wouldn't go so bat*** crazy without the idol that Varric and Hawke so kindly handed over to Barthrand who later sold it to her.

[Darth Krytie]

Ashley_82 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Anders still would have blown up the Chantry if Hawke never arrived. Kirkwall still would have been crawling with blood mages and abominations. Meredith would still be paranoid, strict, and drive the Circle mages to use forbidden magics and attempt to escape.

Anders would be more likely caught and tranquilized/killed long before he even manage to make an attempt to blow the chantry. And Meridith wouldn't go so bat*** crazy without the idol that Varric and Hawke so kindly handed over to Barthrand who later sold it to her.

inb4 anyone claims Bartrand would have found the Idol regardless. Without Hawke, they'd likely have never secured Anders' maps and may not have entered the Deep Roads through the entrance they did...Hawke also cleared the particular path that led to the Idol. It's a confluence of events that may never have happened without Hawke's participation.

Modifié par Darth Krytie, 09 avril 2011 - 10:10 .

[GearRust]

Ashley_82 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Anders still would have blown up the Chantry if Hawke never arrived. Kirkwall still would have been crawling with blood mages and abominations. Meredith would still be paranoid, strict, and drive the Circle mages to use forbidden magics and attempt to escape.

Anders would be more likely caught and tranquilized/killed long before he even manage to make an attempt to blow the chantry. And Meridith wouldn't go so bat*** crazy without the idol that Varric and Hawke so kindly handed over to Barthrand who later sold it to her.

No.

You can skip Anders until act three, where he'll show up to blow up the chantry, which may seem random to those people who dont pick him up, meaning without Hawke's influence, he would still blow up the chantry.

Check.

And Meredith would still go bat **** crazy, due to the fact that the maps you got from anders wer useless as Bartrand said "We found an entrance on this map we picked up that from some travellers who told us they were old and valuable, and since no ones been down this far, there was bound to be some truth to the babbelings". As for the funding, at the near of act one there was a dwarf ready to invest openly if you didnt, even though Bartrand didnt want his help initially, but as all Merchant Dwarfs do, they succumb to greed, just as bartrand did with the idol and then later sold it to that crazy templar.

Check.


Either way, hawke or none, kirkwall would have still succumb to the rising and caused this massive change in Thedases history because of one mans reckless actions...

Anders.

[tanuki]

GearRust wrote...

Ashley_82 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Anders still would have blown up the Chantry if Hawke never arrived. Kirkwall still would have been crawling with blood mages and abominations. Meredith would still be paranoid, strict, and drive the Circle mages to use forbidden magics and attempt to escape.

Anders would be more likely caught and tranquilized/killed long before he even manage to make an attempt to blow the chantry. And Meridith wouldn't go so bat*** crazy without the idol that Varric and Hawke so kindly handed over to Barthrand who later sold it to her.

No.

You can skip Anders until act three, where he'll show up to blow up the chantry, which may seem random to those people who dont pick him up, meaning without Hawke's influence, he would still blow up the chantry.

Check.

And Meredith would still go bat **** crazy, due to the fact that the maps you got from anders wer useless as Bartrand said "We found an entrance on this map we picked up that from some travellers who told us they were old and valuable, and since no ones been down this far, there was bound to be some truth to the babbelings". As for the funding, at the near of act one there was a dwarf ready to invest openly if you didnt, even though Bartrand didnt want his help initially, but as all Merchant Dwarfs do, they succumb to greed, just as bartrand did with the idol and then later sold it to that crazy templar.

Check.


Either way, hawke or none, kirkwall would have still succumb to the rising and caused this massive change in Thedases history because of one mans reckless actions...

Anders.

Yes, but Anders more likely would be killed or caught at the very moment he tries to save Karl if not Hawke. And that exact quest is unskippable.

[GearRust]

Ashley_82 wrote...

GearRust wrote...

Ashley_82 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Anders still would have blown up the Chantry if Hawke never arrived. Kirkwall still would have been crawling with blood mages and abominations. Meredith would still be paranoid, strict, and drive the Circle mages to use forbidden magics and attempt to escape.

Anders would be more likely caught and tranquilized/killed long before he even manage to make an attempt to blow the chantry. And Meridith wouldn't go so bat*** crazy without the idol that Varric and Hawke so kindly handed over to Barthrand who later sold it to her.

No.

You can skip Anders until act three, where he'll show up to blow up the chantry, which may seem random to those people who dont pick him up, meaning without Hawke's influence, he would still blow up the chantry.

Check.

And Meredith would still go bat **** crazy, due to the fact that the maps you got from anders wer useless as Bartrand said "We found an entrance on this map we picked up that from some travellers who told us they were old and valuable, and since no ones been down this far, there was bound to be some truth to the babbelings". As for the funding, at the near of act one there was a dwarf ready to invest openly if you didnt, even though Bartrand didnt want his help initially, but as all Merchant Dwarfs do, they succumb to greed, just as bartrand did with the idol and then later sold it to that crazy templar.

Check.


Either way, hawke or none, kirkwall would have still succumb to the rising and caused this massive change in Thedases history because of one mans reckless actions...

Anders.

Yes, but Anders more likely would be killed or caught at the very moment he tries to save Karl if not Hawke. And that exact quest is unskippable.

Ah ha! Very nice catch, but think fast! If hawke hadn't shown up in the first place, he would not have gone too seek out carl in the chantry, for Anders was waiting for someone like hawke to show up and help him do it. Hence the 'Favor' hawke did for him.

[Augustei]

Stephenc13 wrote...

 that the whole uprising of the mages was caused by Hawke's seemingly insignificant arrival in Kirkwall?

Its Amazing!!

[Xewaka]

GearRust wrote...
Ah ha! Very nice catch, but think fast! If hawke hadn't shown up in the first place, he would not have gone too seek out carl in the chantry, for Anders was waiting for someone like hawke to show up and help him do it. Hence the 'Favor' hawke did for him.

Meredith goes overparanoid because of the idol. The Idol that Hawke found. And Bartrand needed Hawke's funding to put the expedition in movement.
Therefore, Hawke is as much plot device as Anders is, if in a much more nuanced way.

[GearRust]

Xewaka wrote...

GearRust wrote...
Ah ha! Very nice catch, but think fast! If hawke hadn't shown up in the first place, he would not have gone too seek out carl in the chantry, for Anders was waiting for someone like hawke to show up and help him do it. Hence the 'Favor' hawke did for him.

Meredith goes overparanoid because of the idol. The Idol that Hawke found. And Bartrand needed Hawke's funding to put the expedition in movement.
Therefore, Hawke is as much plot device as Anders is, if in a much more nuanced way.

But you missed one key part my friend! For there was another benefactor waiting to be taken on, for it was the doug the dwarf who wanted on the expedition but bartrand didnt much like. Eventually, as all dwaren merchants and bartrands greed does in dragon age, he would accept his offer thus going into the deep roads and finding the idol and soon after selling it to Meredith.

But I don't really see Meredith's point at all either, she would just replace Hawke as the queller of the qunari.

As for Anders, he's more like the uni-bomber, someone who kept to himself and slowly justified himself into doing things.

Either way Anders would have used his Mideval Orbital Strike on the Chantry and changed Thedas forever.

[tanuki]

GearRust wrote...

Ah ha! Very nice catch, but think fast! If hawke hadn't shown up in the first place, he would not have gone too seek out carl in the chantry, for Anders was waiting for someone like hawke to show up and help him do it. Hence the 'Favor' hawke did for him.

I think Hawke just happens to be there the exact same day Anders were going to meet Karl. Anders says he already sent the note to Karl to meet him at that night in the chantry, so presumably he would go there anyway, with or without meeting Hawke. Sure, Hawke can meet  Anders anytime during Act I but thats just how game mechanics work:wizard:

[GearRust]

Ashley_82 wrote...

GearRust wrote...

Ah ha! Very nice catch, but think fast! If hawke hadn't shown up in the first place, he would not have gone too seek out carl in the chantry, for Anders was waiting for someone like hawke to show up and help him do it. Hence the 'Favor' hawke did for him.

I think Hawke just happens to be there the exact same day Anders were going to meet Karl. Anders says he already sent the note to Karl to meet him at that night in the chantry, so presumably he would go there anyway, with or without meeting Hawke. Sure, Hawke can meet  Anders anytime during Act I but thats just how game mechanics work:wizard:

Dang! Thought I had you, nice catch:lol:!

Though Ander's did mention that it was 'probably a trap the templars set up'. From there I can't really say if he were to go because of the note or not because of his paranoia.

What do you think?

[tanuki]

GearRust wrote...

Ashley_82 wrote...

GearRust wrote...

Ah ha! Very nice catch, but think fast! If hawke hadn't shown up in the first place, he would not have gone too seek out carl in the chantry, for Anders was waiting for someone like hawke to show up and help him do it. Hence the 'Favor' hawke did for him.

I think Hawke just happens to be there the exact same day Anders were going to meet Karl. Anders says he already sent the note to Karl to meet him at that night in the chantry, so presumably he would go there anyway, with or without meeting Hawke. Sure, Hawke can meet  Anders anytime during Act I but thats just how game mechanics work:wizard:

Dang! Thought I had you, nice catch:lol:!

Though Ander's did mention that it was 'probably a trap the templars set up'. From there I can't really say if he were to go because of the note or not because of his paranoia.

What do you think?

OK, I think Anders is reckless enough to go there by himself thinking that even if it's a trap he'll be able somehow to fight back and escape. After all, he's not exactly in his sanest state^_^.

Oh, and as I see things, there are 4 people without whom events wouldn't happen the way they did: Hawke, Varric, Anders and Isabela. Although only for the former three their paths had to cross for making all the sh** happen.

Isabela set things in motion after stealing relic. That way she provided opportunity for Hawke to become champion.
If Varric did not meet Hawke, Hawke would remain just one of the refugees. Varric and Hawke (and Anders to a certain degree, giving them Deep Roeads maps) are responsible for the whole idol crap, even if the did it unknowingly.
Anders wouldn't be able to last that long without Hawke and Varric befriending him (I'm ok with you disagreeing with me, it's the matter of opinion anyways^^) and do what he did. Varric pulled some strings to keep unwanted attention off him and then in Act III Hawke's Champion status protected him somehow. (that is if you didnt kick him out of the party in Act II, but as I stated without Hawke's help he would probably be dead by that time).

Interesting though that of all four Anders was the only one with the clear goal and purpose, others were just trying to survive and make some money in the process.

PS English isn't my native so I'm sorry for probable mistakes.

[neubourn]

Xewaka wrote...

Meredith goes overparanoid because of the idol. The Idol that Hawke found. And Bartrand needed Hawke's funding to put the expedition in movement.
Therefore, Hawke is as much plot device as Anders is, if in a much more nuanced way.

Correct. At the beginning of Act 2 i believe (maybe 3, i forget), if you talk to Knight Captain cullen, he mentions how Meredith has been acting stranger "the past 3 years," pretty much implying she is becoming more paranoid then typical, which indicates she has gotten a piece of the relic from Bartrand then.

But yes...even if Anders blew up the Chantry, it still doesnt mean things wouldve turned into a full blown rebellion. Even at the end, Orsino was willing to have all the mages put in prison and helping Meredith on her paranoia by searching the tower. And if no evidence of Blood Magic was found...then it would be safe to assume that things would probably return to normal. it took the combined efforts of Anders' actions and Meredith's resolution to invoke Anullment that lead them to the outcome. Had Anders not been able to blow it up, or if Meredith had not been so hell bent on her paranoia...then things mightve been different. 

Modifié par neubourn, 09 avril 2011 - 11:55 .

[GearRust]

Ashley_82 wrote...


OK, I think Anders is reckless enough to go there by himself thinking
that even if it's a trap he'll be able somehow to fight back and escape.
After all, he's not exactly in his sanest state[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/joyful.png[/smilie].

Oh,
and as I see things, there are 4 people without whom events wouldn't
happen the way they did: Hawke, Varric, Anders and Isabela. Although
only for the former three their paths had to cross for making all the
sh** happen.

Isabela set things in motion after stealing relic. That way she provided opportunity for Hawke to become champion.
If
Varric did not meet Hawke, Hawke would remain just one of the refugees.
Varric and Hawke (and Anders to a certain degree, giving them Deep
Roeads maps) are responsible for the whole idol crap, even if the did it
unknowingly.
Anders wouldn't be able to last that long without
Hawke and Varric befriending him (I'm ok with you disagreeing with me,
it's the matter of opinion anyways^^) and do what he did. Varric pulled
some strings to keep unwanted attention off him and then in Act III
Hawke's Champion status protected him somehow. (that is if you didnt
kick him out of the party in Act II, but as I stated without Hawke's
help he would probably be dead by that time).

Interesting though
that of all four Anders was the only one with the clear goal and
purpose, others were just trying to survive and make some money in the
process.[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/joyful.png[/smilie]

PS English isn't my native so I'm sorry for probable mistakes.

Explaining the importance of each character and hawkes importance to them:

Varric
With or without hawke, he still had doug, the undesirable benefactor, to give
Bartrand and him the money to travel to the deep roads, that the natural
merchant dwarf and bartrands greedy nature, would eventually except. As
for the maps, Bartrand said he found the passage they were taking from a
map that a few travelers had given him a while back that held ancient
wonders and thought, since it was weeks beneath the surface, that it would
be the most profitable. Thus leading them to the idol and causing Meredith
to go insane. So both hawkes contribution and maps were
strangley for not.

Isabella
Even before meeting the champion, she stole the Qun's holy book and
regardless of whether she returned the book or not, she refused to submit
to the Qun. So the Qunari showing up in kirkwall and invading was inevitable
regardless of hawkes appearance. The only difference he would have made
was being the champion rather then meredith which didn't do much.

Anders
He may be reckless but he's also a very timid mage that hides in the slums
to hide from the templars. So he may or may not have seen karl. As for
Hawke or Varric keeping him under the radar, they brought him on the
radar in the first place, having him calavant across kirkwall drawing the
attention of the templars. If they would have left him alone, then he wouln't
be on the radar and thus in no danger, leaving him to his inner conflict and
his eventual justification to blow up the chantry.

Therefore, hawke was not needed, in fact none were needed for anders to blow up the chantry and hence forth cause the massive change in Thedas History.

Retort.

Modifié par GearRust, 09 avril 2011 - 12:00 .

[AlexXIV]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Anders still would have blown up the Chantry if Hawke never arrived. Kirkwall still would have been crawling with blood mages and abominations. Meredith would still be paranoid, strict, and drive the Circle mages to use forbidden magics and attempt to escape.

Thing is, even if nothing of this happened ... does anyone really think the other Circles wouldn't have risen up? I mean they just waited for an excuse. Or how is it to explain that Kirkwall is the trigger for a world wide rebellion? I don't even see how Kirkwall represents most of the Circles in Thedas.

[neubourn]

AlexXIV wrote...

Thing is, even if nothing of this happened ... does anyone really think the other Circles wouldn't have risen up? I mean they just waited for an excuse. Or how is it to explain that Kirkwall is the trigger for a world wide rebellion? I don't even see how Kirkwall represents most of the Circles in Thedas.

You pretty much answered your own question... the Circles were merely "waiting for an excuse," and they got one. Kirkwall probably isnt even that important in the grand scheme of things, but it was the spark that lead the world to fall to pieces, and Cassandra was simply there to find out the truth about what started it all. 

[Danjaru]

Stephenc13 wrote...

Think about if he never arrived at all... What would have happened?

Well.. Qunari would've killed a few more nobles before Meredith and Orsino would've killed them. Meredith probably wouldn't become as insane without the Lyrium Idol. Anders would probably still done his act and the War would probably still have happened, but with more Mages on the mage side as so many wouldn't turn to Blood Magic without Merediths insane rule.

[Vhaius]

If Hawke never arrived in Kirkwall, Meredith would not have gotten hold of a giant glowing shard of rock for a sword and the Arishok would have 're-educated' Kirkwall.