141 réponses à ce sujet

[Bratinov]

TJPags wrote...

Bratinov wrote...

This is why the harrowing exists. If a mage passes the harrowing he/she should be free imo.
Why would any mage willingly go to the Demons if not out of desperation? Sure there are power-hungry lunatics but those can be found in any group.

But this answers your own question - some will be power hungry idiots.  And they may well attract other power hungry idiots.  And how much more dangerous would they be without Templars?

Dragon age is the only universe that I can think of where powerful individuals are kept locked up (and its not by a secret shadow organization) , its no wonder it didnt end well. I don't even think Mages are that powerful since they allowed themselfs to be ruled over for so long, and lets  not forget Tevinter lost.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Bratinov wrote...

This is why the harrowing exists. If a mage passes the harrowing he/she should be free imo.
Why
would any mage willingly go to the Demons if not out of desperation?
Sure there are power-hungry lunatics but those can be found in any
group.

Power-hungry lunatics in other groups don't become
WMD's. The scale of difference is between that of a rifle and a nuke.

Why
would any mage willingly go to Demons or Spirits other than personal
desperation? Well, we can ask Merrill, Anders, Connor, the Black Marsh
****, or even Uldred. They never approached or made deals with fade
beings because they were being threatened at the moment.

Love, greed, self-sacrifice, ambition, indignation. Plenty of things that have nothing to do with the Templar's system.

The
Harrowing isn't even proof that mages are immune to Demons on their own
under all conditions, only a test that they're trusted enough to live
in the Tower.

Merrill is a moron, we don't even know if the demon had any infuence over her. All my mages use Blood Magic, non of them have demon problems.
Justice is Anders's friend and Anders himself is a weak willed individual.
Connor is a kid, he dosent know any better, plus he has not been trained.

The Harrowing may not be 100% proof that those who have passed it are immune but its pretty damn close.
The general populace hates or fears mages, no wonder apostates don't usually lead a simple life.

Modifié par Bratinov, 09 avril 2011 - 03:37 .

[LobselVith8]

Bratinov wrote...

Merrill is a moron, we don't even know if the demon had any infuence over her. All my mages use Blood Magic, non of them have demon problems.

You mean the mage who mastered blood magic and extrapolated information from a two thousand year old shard and lore to recreate an Eluvian? I don't see how you can make that claim, unless you think everyone who suffers from culture shock is a moron for not understanding a foreign culture.

[Eternal Phoenix]

Rifneno wrote...

Torax wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Torax wrote...

Leave Connor out of the debate. Connor was just a case of the Mother not wanting to have her son leave. Also to have the blood line she was preserving being branded a Mage. Meaning he could no longer be the heir to Eamon at least as the Arl is concerned. Connor also while poisoned by an apostate. Connor turned the Demon on his own. A Desire demon that gave him what he wanted. To not have his father die from the sickness he had. The Demon prolonged his life as what appeared to be agreed upon between her and the child.

That makes less than no sense.  My entire point is that Connor wasn't properly taught how to deal with demons BECAUSE the Chantry made it impossible to do so without his parents losing him.  How exactly do you translate that into the Chantry not having an effect?!

My point is the Chantry was never in the decision and I think it actually had more to do with Eamon losing his heir than any fear of the chantry of it'self. Why it has no place in the topic.

The Chantry founded and runs the templars.  They even keep them addicted to drugs that they control the import of to keep them compliant.  Also, you have no basis for the theory that Isolde keeping Connor was because she wanted to keep the heir.  She's a mother and she cares about her son.  The fact that she doesn't hesitate to offer her very life to save his clearly indicates that.  What does a corpse care for politics?  She just wanted the best for her child, as any even remotely good parent would.

Templars founded themselves and were originally a religious order who went about killing bandits, demons, evil bastards, blood mages and abominations. They were ruthless according to the lore (which you can find on the web and in DA2) until the Chantry made them part of the Chantry as their warriors and gave them lyrium to enchance their abilities but also controls them through that.

I'd choose Templars over The Chantry any day and form them back into what they once were. Templars will always be needed to watch over mages and keep the peace.

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 09 avril 2011 - 04:04 .

[Deified Data]

Overall, I agree that siding with the Templars is the "right" path. When we side with mages we do so out of a love of personal freedom - a freedom that mages will not enjoy ever again after the chaos in Kirkwall. The mages, intentionally or no, seem to justify the oppression laid upon them. Let's blame Anders and Orsino for this.

Ultimately, though, Kirkwall isn't the best example if you want to explain why the Circle/Templars are important. Kirkwall is essentially the gate to Hell in Thedas - that any mage resists temptation within its walls is amazing as it is. The fact that we saw so many blood mages and abominations is likely due to Kirkwall's twisted nature, ot the innate weakness of all mages.

That being said, this game definitely soidified my belief that the Circle is necessary.

[ddv.rsa]

Elton John is dead wrote...

Templars founded themselves and were originally a religious order who went about killing bandits, demons, evil bastards, blood mages and abominations. They were ruthless according to the lore (which you can find on the web and in DA2) until the Chantry made them part of the Chantry as their warriors and gave them lyrium to enchance their abilities but also controls them through that.

I'd choose Templars over The Chantry any day and form them back into what they once were. Templars will always be needed to watch over mages and keep the peace.

Of course the templars will always be needed. Aside from being totally badass, who would've foiled the nefarious Orinoco! if not for Meredith?

Modifié par ddv.rsa, 09 avril 2011 - 04:27 .

[TobiTobsen]

Bratinov wrote...

All my mages use Blood Magic, non of them have demon problems.

Please stop using the main characters are shining examples of demon proofness. The main characters have plot armor against demons. That's called gameplay and story segregation.
Otherwise people would start raging because they suddenly got possessed by a demon and it's Game Over.

[Rifneno]

Deified Data wrote...

Overall, I agree that siding with the Templars is the "right" path. When we side with mages we do so out of a love of personal freedom - a freedom that mages will not enjoy ever again after the chaos in Kirkwall. The mages, intentionally or no, seem to justify the oppression laid upon them. Let's blame Anders and Orsino for this.

We're not talking about the freedom to go get drunk at 2 AM, we're talking about the most basic rights everyone should have.  Mages aren't allowed to have families: they can't marry, children are stolen at birth, in most cases (Bethany being an exception for some reason) they can't even see family that they had before being taken to the Circle.  I've said it before and I'll say it again: If these things aren't worth fighting for then what is?!

That being said, this game definitely soidified my belief that the Circle is necessary.

Some policing of the mages is definitely necessary.  The Chantry's Circle is beyond redemption though.

[LobselVith8]

Deified Data wrote...

Overall, I agree that siding with the Templars is the "right" path. When we side with mages we do so out of a love of personal freedom - a freedom that mages will not enjoy ever again after the chaos in Kirkwall. The mages, intentionally or no, seem to justify the oppression laid upon them. Let's blame Anders and Orsino for this.

Let's condemn all mages in the Circle of Kirkwall for the actions of two people? Anders is a former Grey Warden and Orsino is merely their representative. Neither mage embodies the Circle of Magi as a whole.

[Camenae]

lol, I have to say OP, I like your food and ants analogy. Made me laugh : D

[Deified Data]

Rifneno wrote...

Deified Data wrote...

Overall, I agree that siding with the Templars is the "right" path. When we side with mages we do so out of a love of personal freedom - a freedom that mages will not enjoy ever again after the chaos in Kirkwall. The mages, intentionally or no, seem to justify the oppression laid upon them. Let's blame Anders and Orsino for this.

We're not talking about the freedom to go get drunk at 2 AM, we're talking about the most basic rights everyone should have.  Mages aren't allowed to have families: they can't marry, children are stolen at birth, in most cases (Bethany being an exception for some reason) they can't even see family that they had before being taken to the Circle.  I've said it before and I'll say it again: If these things aren't worth fighting for then what is?!

That being said, this game definitely soidified my belief that the Circle is necessary.

Some policing of the mages is definitely necessary.  The Chantry's Circle is beyond redemption though.

What many well-intetioned mage-supporters forget is that, while mages deserve to be free, Thedas deserves to be safe from abominations, blood magic, and tyrannical magocracies. So far in the history of Thedas, a suitable compromise hasn't been found between these two agendas, so the majority dominates absolutely. I'm not saying it's right, but it's as "fair" a solution as we're going to get without everyone joining hands and living in eternal harmony.

If I were a mage, I'd want to be free. If I were't a mage, I wouldn't want to have to worry about the mage next door going berserk and killing my family.

[Deified Data]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Deified Data wrote...

Overall, I agree that siding with the Templars is the "right" path. When we side with mages we do so out of a love of personal freedom - a freedom that mages will not enjoy ever again after the chaos in Kirkwall. The mages, intentionally or no, seem to justify the oppression laid upon them. Let's blame Anders and Orsino for this.

Let's condemn all mages in the Circle of Kirkwall for the actions of two people? Anders is a former Grey Warden and Orsino is merely their representative. Neither mage embodies the Circle of Magi as a whole.

No, but they will be seen as such by Thedas as a whole - it can't be helped. They'll latch on to this one incident as proof that mages cannot be trusted with freedom, and they won't be entirely wrong.

[Bratinov]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Bratinov wrote...

Merrill is a moron, we don't even know if the demon had any infuence over her. All my mages use Blood Magic, non of them have demon problems.

You mean the mage who mastered blood magic and extrapolated information from a two thousand year old shard and lore to recreate an Eluvian? I don't see how you can make that claim, unless you think everyone who suffers from culture shock is a moron for not understanding a foreign culture.

No I mean the mage who goes looking for trouble (blood magic is a capital offence)  and dark secrets who even her keeper thinks should be forgoten. 

TobiTobsen wrote...

Bratinov wrote...

All my mages use Blood Magic, non of them have demon problems.

Please stop
using the main characters are shining examples of demon proofness. The
main characters have plot armor against demons. That's called gameplay
and story segregation.

Which is complete BS imo.

[barryl89]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Deified Data wrote...

Overall, I agree that siding with the Templars is the "right" path. When we side with mages we do so out of a love of personal freedom - a freedom that mages will not enjoy ever again after the chaos in Kirkwall. The mages, intentionally or no, seem to justify the oppression laid upon them. Let's blame Anders and Orsino for this.

Let's condemn all mages in the Circle of Kirkwall for the actions of two people? Anders is a former Grey Warden and Orsino is merely their representative. Neither mage embodies the Circle of Magi as a whole.

You seem to not get that if one mage turns. He will bring several more with him. Uldred is the prime example and that was in DA:O. It is not inconsistent what happened in DA2, but it is a completely different situation. Meridith may have been unhinged but she believes that the circle has been tainted by demonic possession. How can you blame her? Blood magic is rampant in Kirkwall. Orsino protects a serial killer mage that does blood magic/necromantic rituals. He even helps him RESEARCH IT. He then uses the same research to try to kill everyone in the room with him including his allies.

If you take DA2 alone you might say: Oh well the veil was unusually thin. But what happened in DA:O was even more extreme and you see that Greagoir and Irving are almost friends despite their mage/templar divide. Irving and Greagoir working together couldn't prevent a demonic invasion of the tower.

When the First Enchanter is a bloody necromancer how can you justify defending the mages?

Of course, you'll say: Well, if the mages were free then this wouldn't have happened.

No? Well then we get Tevinter. Where the blood mages rise to power and enslave non magic users. In Tevinter they gain power enough to control demons which is probably worse for the common man than a few abominations taking weak mages.

Speaking as a someone who is not a mage, and thats everyone here no matter what you imagine!
If I had the choice of mages being free, mages in circles, the Qunari method or making them all tranquil at age ten I would choose the tranquil solution. The common person would see the content tranquil and think "oh its not bad at all, he seems very happy being tranquil". Its only seeing the reaction of mages to tranquility that makes you think its wrong. Speaking to tranquil makes you think it would be nice to be so content with yourself, at least I think that.

Make the mages Tranquil, or kill them at birth. The other choices are worse or don't work at all.

Now thats only going on what we know now. Imagine it were possible to strip magic from a person without making them tranquil? That would be ideal.

Modifié par barryl89, 09 avril 2011 - 04:42 .

[LobselVith8]

Bratinov wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You mean the mage who mastered blood magic and extrapolated information from a two thousand year old shard and lore to recreate an Eluvian? I don't see how you can make that claim, unless you think everyone who suffers from culture shock is a moron for not understanding a foreign culture.

No I mean the mage who goes looking for trouble (blood magic is a capital offence)  and dark secrets who even her keeper thinks should be forgoten. 

Being a Dalish mage is already an offense, according to Chantry law, because they're viewed as illegal mages who practice unsanctioned magic. Blood magic is hardly going to make any difference. Merrill was focused on cleansing a shard from the Eluvian and helping restore the ancient nation of Arlathan, so I understand her goal to help her people.

[LobselVith8]

Deified Data wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Let's condemn all mages in the Circle of Kirkwall for the actions of two people? Anders is a former Grey Warden and Orsino is merely their representative. Neither mage embodies the Circle of Magi as a whole.

No, but they will be seen as such by Thedas as a whole - it can't be helped. They'll latch on to this one incident as proof that mages cannot be trusted with freedom, and they won't be entirely wrong.

Most people already think mages are cursed. Listen to the Andrastians talk about mages being cursed in the Magi Origin, and even Meredith echos that they're cursed as an Andrastian. It's been nearly a thousand years, and nothing changed for the mages. As for not trusting mages with freedom, First Enchanter Orsino isn't free, so he isn't an example of a "free mage."

Considering the templars who tortured a da'len (child) of the Dalish, who raped mages, who made Harrowed mages tranquil despite it being illegal, and who tried to kill people, I don't see how we can condemn mages for the actions of a few when there are templars who have committed monstrous acts.

[LobselVith8]

barryl89 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Let's condemn all mages in the Circle of Kirkwall for the actions of two people? Anders is a former Grey Warden and Orsino is merely their representative. Neither mage embodies the Circle of Magi as a whole.

You seem to not get that if one mage turns. He will bring several more with him.

That's not accurate. An abomination doesn't necessarily mean more abominations will result, as Wayward Son illustrates.

barryl89 wrote...

Uldred is the prime example and that was in DA:O.

You're talking about a situation where the Veil was torn and where demonology was specifically used to bring forth a plethora of demons across the Fade.

barryl89 wrote...

It is not inconsistent what happened in DA2, but it is a completely different situation. Meridith may have been unhinged but she believes that the circle has been tainted by demonic possession. How can you blame her? Blood magic is rampant in Kirkwall. Orsino protects a serial killer mage that does blood magic/necromantic rituals. He even helps him RESEARCH IT. He then uses the same research to try to kill everyone in the room with him including his allies.

I can blame Meredith for wanting to execute the Circle of Kirkwall for something Anders specifically did, and the First Enchanter's actions don't condemn the rest of the men, women, and children who make up the Circle of Magi in the Gallows.

barryl89 wrote...

If you take DA2 alone you might say: Oh well the veil was unusually thin. But what happened in DA:O was even more extreme and you see that Greagoir and Irving are almost friends despite their mage/templar divide. Irving and Greagoir working together couldn't prevent a demonic invasion of the tower.

People historically want to be free, which is why there is a divide between the mages and those who rule over them.

barryl89 wrote...

When the First Enchanter is a bloody necromancer how can you justify defending the mages?

Of course, you'll say: Well, if the mages were free then this wouldn't have happened.

Because men, women, and children shouldn't be executed for the actions of one single man.

barryl89 wrote...

No? Well then we get Tevinter. Where the blood mages rise to power and enslave non magic users. In Tevinter they gain power enough to control demons which is probably worse for the common man than a few abominations taking weak mages.

The nation of Rivain, the Chasind tribes, and the Dalish clans aren't like Tevinter, and they have free mages. So does the morally corrupt town of Haven.

barryl89 wrote...

Speaking as a someone who is not a mage, and thats everyone here no matter what you imagine!
If I had the choice of mages being free, mages in circles, the Qunari method or making them all tranquil at age ten I would choose the tranquil solution. The common person would see the content tranquil and think "oh its not bad at all, he seems very happy being tranquil". Its only seeing the reaction of mages to tranquility that makes you think its wrong. Speaking to tranquil makes you think it would be nice to be so content with yourself, at least I think that.

According to Karl, he was nothing more than a "templar puppet" when he was a tranquil mage.

barryl89 wrote...

Make the mages Tranquil, or kill them at birth. The other choices are worse or don't work at all.

Now thats only going on what we know now. Imagine it were possible to strip magic from a person without making them tranquil? That would be ideal.

Which is done by stripping away their humanity and agency; that's hardly ideal for the people who have to lose their soul in the process.

[The Baconer]

barryl89 wrote...
No? Well then we get Tevinter. Where the blood mages rise to power and enslave non magic users. In Tevinter they gain power enough to control demons which is probably worse for the common man than a few abominations taking weak mages.

People still automatically assume that free mages=TURVURNTUR IMPURIUM? Because mundanes are complex and diverse but all mages are exactly the same? There are regular nations not ruled by mages that also have slaves you know, like Orlais and Antiva.

[AngryFrozenWater]

From an economic point of view I think it is best to kill all mages. No more possessions. Lowers crime rates. Cuts the costs of maintaining circles. Templars won't be needed anymore. The chant can be streamlined. And BW only needs to support rogues and warriors in their next game. Sounds like the only way to fly.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 09 avril 2011 - 05:13 .

[The Angry One]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

From an economic point of view I think it is best to kill all mages. No more possessions. Lowers crime rates. Cuts the costs of maintaining circles. Templars won't be needed anymore. The chant can be streamlined. And BW only needs to support rogues and warriors in their next game. Sounds like the only way to fly.

Stop giving EA ideas.

[barryl89]

Which is done by stripping away their humanity and agency; that's hardly ideal for the people who have to lose their soul in the process.

You missed my point a bit. I said I'd prefer if they could be stripped of what it means to be a mage, WITHOUT the bad effects.

But if that is not possible. I think being tranquil is better than being a slave/prisoner. Whatever you think you cannot say tranquil are unhappy

The nation of Rivain, the Chasind tribes, and the Dalish clans aren't like Tevinter, and they have free mages. So does the morally corrupt town of Haven.

You mean the Rivain that lived under the Qun? Right, the Qun really supports mage freedom.
The chasind are wild barbarians who are a minority, the Dalish are too.

And Haven? Did you miss the part where they planned to conquer Fereldan?

Because men, women, and children shouldn't be executed for the actions of one single man.

Not only for the one man. You forget Anders, all the blood mages etc...
And I don't agree with the Rite being called, believe me. I am just trying to represent how it might be justified. Meredith saw an unprecedented magical attack on the Chantry, she was just about to search the tower, where she would have found incriminating evidence I am sure. That is a huge call for anyone to make, and she wasn't balanced anyway.

[AngryFrozenWater]

barryl89 wrote...

Because men, women, and children shouldn't be executed for the actions of one single man.

Not only for the one man. You forget Anders, all the blood mages etc...
And I don't agree with the Rite being called, believe me. I am just trying to represent how it might be justified. Meredith saw an unprecedented magical attack on the Chantry, she was just about to search the tower, where she would have found incriminating evidence I am sure. That is a huge call for anyone to make, and she wasn't balanced anyway.

Meredith wasn't exactly sane at the time of invoking the Rite. That lyrium item pushed her over the edge. Meredith saw nothing at that point. I am not sure if she wouldn't have acted the same without it, but that's only a guess. Sorry, but you don't have a strong point there.

[LobselVith8]

barryl89 wrote...

LobselVith66 wrote...

Which is done by stripping away their humanity and agency; that's hardly ideal for the people who have to lose their soul in the process.

You missed my point a bit. I said I'd prefer if they could be stripped of what it means to be a mage, WITHOUT the bad effects.

But if that is not possible. I think being tranquil is better than being a slave/prisoner. Whatever you think you cannot say tranquil are unhappy

Because they have their humanity stripped from them - of course they aren't unhappy, because they have no idea what it means to be happy in the first place.

barryl89 wrote...

LobselVith66 wrote...

The nation of Rivain, the Chasind tribes, and the Dalish clans aren't like Tevinter, and they have free mages. So does the morally corrupt town of Haven.

You mean the Rivain that lived under the Qun? Right, the Qun really supports mage freedom.
The chasind are wild barbarians who are a minority, the Dalish are too.

And Haven? Did you miss the part where they planned to conquer Fereldan?

You mean the same Rivain where the people refuse to be parted from their seers for over a millennia despite Chantry prohibition against what the seers do?

And you seem to have missed that I addressed that Haven is morally bankruptcy, but despite that it does have free mages who aren't ruling the people in the isolated town, and since the society is governed by a non-mage, it's not a mirror image of the magocracy of slavery that is the Tevinter Imperium.

barryl89 wrote...

LobselVith66 wrote...

Because men, women, and children shouldn't be executed for the actions of one single man.

Not only for the one man. You forget Anders, all the blood mages etc...

Anders isn't a mage from the Circle of Kirkwall. The blood mages don't condemn every other mage who doesn't use blood magic. Killing everyone from the eldest mage to the youngest apprentice because of the actions of a few isn't justified.

barryl89 wrote...

And I don't agree with the Rite being called, believe me. I am just trying to represent how it might be justified. Meredith saw an unprecedented magical attack on the Chantry, she was just about to search the tower, where she would have found incriminating evidence I am sure. That is a huge call for anyone to make, and she wasn't balanced anyway.

Meredith saw an attack done by an ex-Grey Warden and proceeded to ignore said ex-Warden while she ordered the execution of people innocent of the crime.

[barryl89]

Meredith saw an attack done by an ex-Grey Warden and proceeded to ignore said ex-Warden while she ordered the execution of people innocent of the crime.

Does she know he is an ex grey warden? Does she care. Are you trying to say that being a mage who no longer operates as a grey warden cancels out what he is?

Anders isn't a mage from the Circle of Kirkwall. The blood mages don't condemn every other mage who doesn't use blood magic. Killing everyone from the eldest mage to the youngest apprentice because of the actions of a few isn't justified.

Again. The common man doesn't know that. Meridith was already on her way to collect the evidence that would have justified her calling the rite. Anders just removed a burden of her time and gave her an even better excuse.

You mean the same Rivain where the people refuse to be parted from their seers for over a millennia despite Chantry prohibition against what the seers do?

And you seem to have missed that I addressed that Haven is morally bankruptcy, but despite that it does have free mages who aren't ruling the people in the isolated town, and since the society is governed by a non-mage, it's not a mirror image of the magocracy of slavery that is the Tevinter Imperium.

The Rivaini were conquered by the Qunari, you know what the Qunari do when the take a city, yes? Before that they were under chantry law. In what way did they have a free mage society? It just meant they sheltered apostates/saarebas from their overlords.

As for Haven, Tevinter started out as a small fiefdom. If you talk to the fanatics, they talk of enslaving the non believers in the lowlands in the name of Andraste. If you despoil the ashes, they still might!

[Rifneno]

barryl89 wrote...

Meridith was already on her way to collect the evidence that would have justified her calling the rite.

....  Wow.

[barryl89]

Rifneno wrote...

barryl89 wrote...

Meridith was already on her way to collect the evidence that would have justified her calling the rite.

....  Wow.

Not entirely sure what that means but if you think about it, it makes sense. Orsino admits to sheltering blood mages. Not to mention he has Quentin's research.