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Why Mages doomed theirselves


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#51
Stephenc13

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LobselVith8 wrote...
The Circle mages are being condemned to genocide for an act that Anders committed, how are they on the wrong side?

True, I agree that it was unjust for Meredith to invoke the Right of Annulment. That was all because she was crazy from the lyrium idol

LobselVith8 wrote...
Of course they're innocent - Anders committed the crime. And given how, when Hawke sides with the mages, Varric specifically mentions there were "many survivors," and the templar ending specifically doesn't mention this, I don't see how the mass execution of men, women, and children who had nothing to do with Anders attack on the Chantry can ever be justified.


Anders is one of those mages who show how dangerous mages really could be. Its because of him that the Templars feel that they need to be so forceful.

LobselVith8 wrote...
So the actions of a few should condemn them all? Should the templars who rape, torture, illegally force Harrowed mages into tranquility, and murder condemn every member of the Order of Templars?

Harrowed mages aren't immune to the lure of demons

LobselVith8 wrote...
Mages were placed into prisons because, centuries ago, they held a nonviolent protest against their lack of rights in Andrastian society, and Divine Ambrosia II wanted to declare an Exalted March on her own cathedral in response (History of the Circle codex).

Imagine living with people who can destroy a building with the wave of a hand, many people wouldn't feel too safe if they were all just free

LobselVith8 wrote...
Or it gives the mages a chance to live a life without being under Chantry and templar subjugation, since mages are people and deserve basic rights and freedoms, they are not ants.


I said that the demons are ants always seeking mages who are food to the demons.
But Mages not living under observation is too dangerous. Imagine people outside walking around with loaded guns, you wouldn't exactly feel safe seeing that at all.

Modifié par Stephenc13, 09 avril 2011 - 06:47 .


#52
Stephenc13

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Okay,
If the Mages were free,
All the land would be the same as the Tevinter Imperium where mages rule other people because of their power.
Mages know exactly how much power they have and if it means that they get wealth and slaves to do everything for them, they will make themselves the rulers over the people because there's no one to keep them under control.
Mages don't need the help of demons at all to be dangerous, they are already dangerous.by living and knowing how to use magic.
The common thing you see in animals and people is greed.
No matter how humble someone claims to be, if an opportunity to be wealthy comes along, they won't turn it down.

The point is that if mages are unchecked, they will eventually delare themselves as the higher powers over the people.

#53
Iosev

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I think most reasonable people aren't suggesting that magi should be left unchecked. In addition, using Tevinter as an example fails to take into account the various sociopolitical factors that have shaped that nation.

#54
Riona45

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The OP reads like Insane Troll Logic.  It's kind of shocking that so many people took it seriously.

Modifié par Riona45, 09 avril 2011 - 07:03 .


#55
LobselVith8

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barryl89 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Meredith saw an attack done by an ex-Grey Warden and proceeded to ignore said ex-Warden while she ordered the execution of people innocent of the crime.


Does she know he is an ex grey warden? Does she care. Are you trying to say that being a mage who no longer operates as a grey warden cancels out what he is?


I'm addressing that Anders is a former Grey Warden from the Circle of Ferelden, is known to have been with the Wardens by the refugees he was helping, and his attack was used to order the execution of innocent people who had nothing to do with the attack on the Chantry.

barryl89 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Anders isn't a mage from the Circle of Kirkwall. The blood mages don't condemn every other mage who doesn't use blood magic. Killing everyone from the eldest mage to the youngest apprentice because of the actions of a few isn't justified.


Again. The common man doesn't know that. Meridith was already on her way to collect the evidence that would have justified her calling the rite. Anders just removed a burden of her time and gave her an even better excuse.


The common man does know that since it's mentioned when Hawke is trying to find him by the common man.

barryl89 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You mean the same Rivain where the people refuse to be parted from their seers for over a millennia despite Chantry prohibition against what the seers do?

And you seem to have missed that I addressed that Haven is morally bankruptcy, but despite that it does have free mages who aren't ruling the people in the isolated town, and since the society is governed by a non-mage, it's not a mirror image of the magocracy of slavery that is the Tevinter Imperium.


The Rivaini were conquered by the Qunari, you know what the Qunari do when the take a city, yes? Before that they were under chantry law. In what way did they have a free mage society? It just meant they sheltered apostates/saarebas from their overlords.

As for Haven, Tevinter started out as a small fiefdom. If you talk to the fanatics, they talk of enslaving the non believers in the lowlands in the name of Andraste. If you despoil the ashes, they still might!


It's addressed in the DA2 codex on the Bioware Blog that Rivain has free mages:

"Some are saying, however, that this needs to change. They remind the world that mages are not controlled by templars everywhere in Thedas: not among the Rivaini witches, the Dalish keepers or the Tevinter magisters… and those societies are, arguably, no worse off."

Furthermore, Kolgrim talks about spreading the teachings of the Disciplines when the Blight has destroyed the nation of Ferelden. Regardless, the town of Haven isn't the Tevinter Imperium, and it has mages living alongside nonmages without Chantry or templar oversight.

#56
Augustei

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Idk if I would say Rivain was ever really under Chantry control, I dont think it ever really has been.. It had andrastians but beyond that they had no real power or influence there as they always conflicted with their beliefs regarding the Rivaini witches

#57
Rifneno

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arcelonious wrote...

I think most reasonable people aren't suggesting that magi should be left unchecked. In addition, using Tevinter as an example fails to take into account the various sociopolitical factors that have shaped that nation.


AHHH!!  LOGIC!  IT BURNS US!!!

#58
LobselVith8

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Stephenc13 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
The Circle mages are being condemned to genocide for an act that Anders committed, how are they on the wrong side?


True, I agree that it was unjust for Meredith to invoke the Right of Annulment. That was all because she was crazy from the lyrium idol


Okay.

Stephenc13 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Of course they're innocent - Anders committed the crime. And given how, when Hawke sides with the mages, Varric specifically mentions there were "many survivors," and the templar ending specifically doesn't mention this, I don't see how the mass execution of men, women, and children who had nothing to do with Anders attack on the Chantry can ever be justified.


Anders is one of those mages who show how dangerous mages really could be. Its because of him that the Templars feel that they need to be so forceful.


Ser Alrik is one of the templars who can show you how the Order can abuse its authority over mages. It's because of these abuses that mages rebel against the system.

Stephenc13 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

So the actions of a few should condemn them all? Should the templars who rape, torture, illegally force Harrowed mages into tranquility, and murder condemn every member of the Order of Templars?


Harrowed mages aren't immune to the lure of demons


It's still illegal to make them tranquil once they've gone through the Harrowing.

Stephenc13 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Mages were placed into prisons because, centuries ago, they held a nonviolent protest against their lack of rights in Andrastian society, and Divine Ambrosia II wanted to declare an Exalted March on her own cathedral in response (History of the Circle codex).


Imagine living with people who can destroy a building with the wave of a hand, many people wouldn't feel too safe if they were all just free


You mean like the Chasind and the Dalish do? Like the people of Rivain who keep the seers close? Like the inhabitants of Haven? Like the Grey Wardens who accept mages into their ranks?

Stephenc13 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Or it gives the mages a chance to live a life without being under Chantry and templar subjugation, since mages are people and deserve basic rights and freedoms, they are not ants.


I said that the demons are ants always seeking mages who are food to the demons.
But Mages not living under observation is too dangerous. Imagine people outside walking around with loaded guns, you wouldn't exactly feel safe seeing that at all.


In a realm where people are armed with swords and crossbows...

#59
The Baconer

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Stephenc13 wrote...

Okay,
If the Mages were free,
All the land would be the same as the Tevinter Imperium where mages rule other people because of their power.
Mages know exactly how much power they have and if it means that they get wealth and slaves to do everything for them, they will make themselves the rulers over the people because there's no one to keep them under control.
Mages don't need the help of demons at all to be dangerous, they are already dangerous.by living and knowing how to use magic.
The common thing you see in animals and people is greed.
No matter how humble someone claims to be, if an opportunity to be wealthy comes along, they won't turn it down.

The point is that if mages are unchecked, they will eventually delare themselves as the higher powers over the people.


People still automatically assume that free mages=TURVURNTUR IMPURIUM?
Because mundanes are complex and diverse but all mages are exactly the
same? There are regular nations not ruled by mages that also have slaves
you know, like Orlais and Antiva.


#60
LadyVaJedi

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Is it proven that the mages will place themselves as the leaders? Just because one nation did it won't mean the others will follow suite.

#61
Augustei

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Lobselvith8 wrote...

You mean like the Chasind and the Dalish do? Like the people of
Rivain who keep the seers close? Like the inhabitants of Haven? Like the
Grey Wardens who accept mages into their ranks?


While I pretty much agree with you the dalish only seem to have 2 mages per tribe, The Chasind, Haveners and Rivanians also have a small amount easy to control in the event of disaster unlike the circles which are on a much grander scale and more difficult to control in the event of disaster.

#62
Augustei

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The Baconer wrote...

Stephenc13 wrote...

Okay,
If the Mages were free,
All the land would be the same as the Tevinter Imperium where mages rule other people because of their power.
Mages know exactly how much power they have and if it means that they get wealth and slaves to do everything for them, they will make themselves the rulers over the people because there's no one to keep them under control.
Mages don't need the help of demons at all to be dangerous, they are already dangerous.by living and knowing how to use magic.
The common thing you see in animals and people is greed.
No matter how humble someone claims to be, if an opportunity to be wealthy comes along, they won't turn it down.

The point is that if mages are unchecked, they will eventually delare themselves as the higher powers over the people.


People still automatically assume that free mages=TURVURNTUR IMPURIUM?
Because mundanes are complex and diverse but all mages are exactly the
same? There are regular nations not ruled by mages that also have slaves
you know, like Orlais and Antiva.




Bbb..bu..but they are illegal there!

#63
The Angry One

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The Baconer wrote...

People still automatically assume that free mages=TURVURNTUR IMPURIUM?
Because mundanes are complex and diverse but all mages are exactly the
same? There are regular nations not ruled by mages that also have slaves
you know, like Orlais and Antiva.




People go by the adage that power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Mages have power, and while most nations in Thedas have slaves and moral bankruptcy, Tevinter oppresses all non-mages who can be considered lucky if they gain the status of "servant".
Plus in most other examples of socities with free mages, those mages are the leaders. Like the Dalish.

#64
Rifneno

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The Angry One wrote...

People go by the adage that power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Mages have power, and while most nations in Thedas have slaves and moral bankruptcy, Tevinter oppresses all non-mages who can be considered lucky if they gain the status of "servant".
Plus in most other examples of socities with free mages, those mages are the leaders. Like the Dalish.


They're leaders by stupid traditions though, not force.  Look at the dwarves, they have the most retarded society in Thedas and they don't have a single mage.

#65
Augustei

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In the ending Orsino should have stfu and let Meredith do her job since he was harboring blood mages and was one himself since "One does not pull a ritual like this out of thin air" rough quoting. Regarding the Annulment though, yeah it should not have gone ahead the thought of Annulment was stupid. And weren't the seekers of truth in the city anyway? Wtf were they doing the whole time? Didn't they notice the pride demons when we got to the docks? They had a base there!! idiots...
If they work under the authority of the divine they should have been able to overule the Annulment..

The Templars should have hunted down and killed all members of that new extremist fraternitie, Killed Anders for what he did to the chantry and just referred to the authority of the grand cleric in Starkhaven or something.. Or even better the seekers IN KIRKWALL!!!

#66
Augustei

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Ever noticed how the mage vs templar situation is so much like the mutant vs homosapiens in X-men.. I probably just think this since I just watched all 3 of them though lol. And you have Anders / Magneto the extremest leading the show wanting freedom for his people

#67
LobselVith8

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XxDeonxX wrote...

While I pretty much agree with you the dalish only seem to have 2 mages per tribe, The Chasind, Haveners and Rivanians also have a small amount easy to control in the event of disaster unlike the circles which are on a much grander scale and more difficult to control in the event of disaster.


I've read that same comment on the unofficial Dragon Age Wiki, but Aneirin was part of Zathrian's clan; Fenyriel becomes a member of Marethari's clan; there doesn't seem to be a limit to how many mages a clan can have, especially when Velanna seemed to be aware of who her possible replacement as First could be from her own clan.

#68
Augustei

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Rifneno wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

People go by the adage that power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Mages have power, and while most nations in Thedas have slaves and moral bankruptcy, Tevinter oppresses all non-mages who can be considered lucky if they gain the status of "servant".
Plus in most other examples of socities with free mages, those mages are the leaders. Like the Dalish.


They're leaders by stupid traditions though, not force.  Look at the dwarves, they have the most retarded society in Thedas and they don't have a single mage.


yet there is mage genlocks, funny isn't it?

#69
The Baconer

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The Angry One wrote...
People go by the adage that power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Mages have power, and while most nations in Thedas have slaves and moral bankruptcy, Tevinter oppresses all non-mages who can be considered lucky if they gain the status of "servant".


Is that different than all of the non-nobility in Orlais getting shafted constantly? Or having to bend over (figuratively and literally) to the whim of every Chevalier that passes by? Where are all the topics complaining about that? Is oppression suddenly worse or different when it's mages doing it?

Plus in most other examples of socities with free mages, those mages are the leaders. Like the Dalish.


So?

#70
The Angry One

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The Baconer wrote...

Is that different than all of the non-nobility in Orlais getting shafted constantly? Or having to bend over (figuratively and literally) to the whim of every Chevalier that passes by? Where are all the topics complaining about that? Is oppression suddenly worse or different when it's mages doing it?


The difference is, anyone could potentially amass wealth and buy themselves into the nobility, or gain the skill and political knowhow to be a Chevalier.
If you're not born a mage, you will never be a mage. It may be a weak distinction to us, but in a world full of inequity it's an important one.

Plus in most other examples of socities with free mages, those mages are the leaders. Like the Dalish.


So?


So if a non-mage wants to lead their clan, even if they have the ability, they're plain out of luck.

#71
Kitaen

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Stephenc13 wrote...

 I picked the Mages the first time I played through, and Templars the second time.
I feel that the Mages were overall the wrong side after both playthroughs.

When I picked the mages, I was thinking "They can't be killed off for no reason, most of them are probably innocent!"
and a few seconds into the killing and I see a mage turn into an abomination, I was thinking "uhhhh... maybe I picked the wrong side"
A little more into the playthrough, and I realized that the mages were definitely the wrong side.

The Templars were most likely formed because they witnessed many mages letting demons into their bodies.
So the Mages brought the Templars onto themselves, and they complain about how oppressive the Templars are when many of their fellow mages keep turning to blood magic and demons.
The mages rebelling against the Circle give the Templars more reason to tighten their grip on mages.

Reasons why Templars and the Circles are important.

The Demons are like ants,
The Circle is like a basket,
The Templars are containers and ziplock bags
The Mages are fruits and foods.

1. It's impossible to rid of all the ants because there are countless amounts of ants as there are demons in the Dragon Age world.
2. It's possible to rid of the basket but everything will be disorganized and harder to maintain, everything will be on the picnic blanket. Without the Circles, Templars could not do their job well if every mage was scattered thoughout the world.
3. If foods weren't in containers or ziplock bags, if they were in the basket or not, ants would still be seeking out the food and eventually finding a way into the basket to get to the food. If there were no Templars, but the Circles contained unsupervised mages, Demons still would find a way to invade the Mage bodies.
4. If there were no fruits and foods, there wouldn't be as much of an ant problem. If there were no mages, there wouldn't be much of a demon problem. Ants may still crawl around the picnic area, but there wouldn't be a specific thing to feed on.

Ants may still get into the containers, but the containers keep the ants from feeding on all the other foods.


You are entitled to your opinion and are allowed to express and debate it freely.
I, however, cannot agree with you.

Mages like humanity on a whole are not evil. Its unfair to corral all mages under fear.
I do find it also unfair that in all the negotiations and dealings my Warden and Hawke have had with demons that nothing adverse has occurred to them because of it. Regardless, I am still in full support that responsible people can make responsible decisions.

The templars treat mages like a menace that must be 'controlled' for the greater good. By that, they mean since the general populous has no magic ability they cannot defend themselves against rogue mages whom are bent on revenge, power, or some other deadly sin that ultimately pushes them into a chaotic state of mind.

I have no problem with their being templars, however, I have a big problem with them being put into circles like concentration camps and being made tranquil for the sake of 'mastering themselves' a fluffy term for 'tamed'.

Templars could be, as they were in Tevinter, a guard force, and army, whatever would suit their talents as the only non-mage answer to the magically gifted, save for other mages. Mages don't have to turn into 'magisters'. If they own property or have status as a noble family sobeit. This doesn't mean they will resort to blood magic, and if they do, there is no reason to immediately believe they will use it for ill as every mage like people in general are inquisitive and curious about the unknown. Too much one-sided propaganda has been circulated to scare the general populous into the Chantry taking authority with the templars as their sword.

Why do the mages rebel? Would you like your freedom restricted? Told you are a worthless thing that must be taken from your family at a young age to be put into a camp 'circle' because you are already labeled as a future menace? No?

Instead of doing this, how about allowing them to attend an academy that is supported by the crown and taught by mage instructors and the Chantry Templars alike? Of course the templars would need better educations as well, but that only supports a stronger curriculum and teaching base. A Magical Academy that puts the needs of exploring magic for the good of all and not for insideous means. Magic cannot serve man if it is being restricted under a terrorish leash. Caged, and put into a corner long enough and even the most sane individual will rebel.

I cannot abide by the ideology that oppression and fear are good reasons to enslave and outlaw humans that are different and have different abilities that others. God only knows what will happen when humans IRL start showing ability to do the extraordinary, guess we should cage and leash them too, hmm?

#72
Jedi Master of Orion

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I sided with the mages in the final battle but that was only because I logically assumed that they couldn't all have been part the endless series of blood mages that tried to murder me and so many others over the course of the game. Plus there was Bethany. I refused to allow Meredith to slaughter the Circle and the innocents within because of somebody elses crime, however in the larger conflict I think it is smarter to side with the Templars. I don't accept the idea that the Templars are responsible the for the mages turning into monsters. I held that Everyone is responsible for their own actions. Hence the Circle is not to be held responsible for Anders' terrorism and the Templars are not responsible for Blood Magic. Orsino and Anders were really probably the best proof in the end that mages being free was a bad idea.The irony is that although Meredith is supposedly the big bad, she has an excuse. She was driven insane by a dwarven artifact. Orsino is responsible for himself. And Anders... well either he's responsible for himself or he's a dangerous abonination. Honestly, the amount of evil mages you run into makes me suspect that Bioware was trying to say that Fenris was mostly right about mages.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 09 avril 2011 - 07:53 .


#73
Rifneno

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XxDeonxX wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

People go by the adage that power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Mages have power, and while most nations in Thedas have slaves and moral bankruptcy, Tevinter oppresses all non-mages who can be considered lucky if they gain the status of "servant".
Plus in most other examples of socities with free mages, those mages are the leaders. Like the Dalish.


They're leaders by stupid traditions though, not force.  Look at the dwarves, they have the most retarded society in Thedas and they don't have a single mage.


yet there is mage genlocks, funny isn't it?



Oh... My... God...

#74
KJandrew

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LobselVith8 wrote...

Mages were placed into prisons because, centuries ago, they held a nonviolent protest against their lack of rights in Andrastian society, and Divine Ambrosia II wanted to declare an Exalted March on her own cathedral in response (History of the Circle codex).

The mages requested to go into the circle

#75
The Baconer

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The Angry One wrote...
The difference is, anyone could potentially amass wealth and buy themselves into the nobility, or gain the skill and political knowhow to be a Chevalier.


And if they flew to the sky, they could live in the clouds.

So if a non-mage wants to lead their clan, even if they have the ability, they're plain out of luck.


That comes back around to "if a peasant wants to take part in politics, even if they have the ability, they're plain out of luck."

Modifié par The Baconer, 09 avril 2011 - 07:59 .