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[LobselVith8]

KJandrew wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Mages were placed into prisons because, centuries ago, they held a nonviolent protest against their lack of rights in Andrastian society, and Divine Ambrosia II wanted to declare an Exalted March on her own cathedral in response (History of the Circle codex).

The mages requested to go into the circle

According to the Chantry scholar, who I'm certain has no reason to be biased. The scholar does admit that Divine Ambrosia II was contemplating an Exalted March on her own cathedral and was only talked down by the templars.

[KJandrew]

LobselVith8 wrote...

KJandrew wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Mages were placed into prisons because, centuries ago, they held a nonviolent protest against their lack of rights in Andrastian society, and Divine Ambrosia II wanted to declare an Exalted March on her own cathedral in response (History of the Circle codex).

The mages requested to go into the circle

According to the Chantry scholar, who I'm certain has no reason to be biased. The scholar does admit that Divine Ambrosia II was contemplating an Exalted March on her own cathedral and was only talked down by the templars.

Yes but as part of the agreement the mages wanted buildings were all the mages could live and not have to deal with the public's fearmongering

[Bigdoser]

Kitaen wrote...

Stephenc13 wrote...

 I picked the Mages the first time I played through, and Templars the second time.
I feel that the Mages were overall the wrong side after both playthroughs.

When I picked the mages, I was thinking "They can't be killed off for no reason, most of them are probably innocent!"
and a few seconds into the killing and I see a mage turn into an abomination, I was thinking "uhhhh... maybe I picked the wrong side"
A little more into the playthrough, and I realized that the mages were definitely the wrong side.

The Templars were most likely formed because they witnessed many mages letting demons into their bodies.
So the Mages brought the Templars onto themselves, and they complain about how oppressive the Templars are when many of their fellow mages keep turning to blood magic and demons.
The mages rebelling against the Circle give the Templars more reason to tighten their grip on mages.

Reasons why Templars and the Circles are important.

The Demons are like ants,
The Circle is like a basket,
The Templars are containers and ziplock bags
The Mages are fruits and foods.

1. It's impossible to rid of all the ants because there are countless amounts of ants as there are demons in the Dragon Age world.
2. It's possible to rid of the basket but everything will be disorganized and harder to maintain, everything will be on the picnic blanket. Without the Circles, Templars could not do their job well if every mage was scattered thoughout the world.
3. If foods weren't in containers or ziplock bags, if they were in the basket or not, ants would still be seeking out the food and eventually finding a way into the basket to get to the food. If there were no Templars, but the Circles contained unsupervised mages, Demons still would find a way to invade the Mage bodies.
4. If there were no fruits and foods, there wouldn't be as much of an ant problem. If there were no mages, there wouldn't be much of a demon problem. Ants may still crawl around the picnic area, but there wouldn't be a specific thing to feed on.

Ants may still get into the containers, but the containers keep the ants from feeding on all the other foods.

You are entitled to your opinion and are allowed to express and debate it freely.
I, however, cannot agree with you.

Mages like humanity on a whole are not evil. Its unfair to corral all mages under fear.
I do find it also unfair that in all the negotiations and dealings my Warden and Hawke have had with demons that nothing adverse has occurred to them because of it. Regardless, I am still in full support that responsible people can make responsible decisions.

The templars treat mages like a menace that must be 'controlled' for the greater good. By that, they mean since the general populous has no magic ability they cannot defend themselves against rogue mages whom are bent on revenge, power, or some other deadly sin that ultimately pushes them into a chaotic state of mind.

I have no problem with their being templars, however, I have a big problem with them being put into circles like concentration camps and being made tranquil for the sake of 'mastering themselves' a fluffy term for 'tamed'.

Templars could be, as they were in Tevinter, a guard force, and army, whatever would suit their talents as the only non-mage answer to the magically gifted, save for other mages. Mages don't have to turn into 'magisters'. If they own property or have status as a noble family sobeit. This doesn't mean they will resort to blood magic, and if they do, there is no reason to immediately believe they will use it for ill as every mage like people in general are inquisitive and curious about the unknown. Too much one-sided propaganda has been circulated to scare the general populous into the Chantry taking authority with the templars as their sword.

Why do the mages rebel? Would you like your freedom restricted? Told you are a worthless thing that must be taken from your family at a young age to be put into a camp 'circle' because you are already labeled as a future menace? No?

Instead of doing this, how about allowing them to attend an academy that is supported by the crown and taught by mage instructors and the Chantry Templars alike? Of course the templars would need better educations as well, but that only supports a stronger curriculum and teaching base. A Magical Academy that puts the needs of exploring magic for the good of all and not for insideous means. Magic cannot serve man if it is being restricted under a terrorish leash. Caged, and put into a corner long enough and even the most sane individual will rebel.

I cannot abide by the ideology that oppression and fear are good reasons to enslave and outlaw humans that are different and have different abilities that others. God only knows what will happen when humans IRL start showing ability to do the extraordinary, guess we should cage and leash them too, hmm?

OMG LOGIC IT BURNS!!!

[barryl89]

Templars could be, as they were in Tevinter, a guard force, and army, whatever would suit their talents as the only non-mage answer to the magically gifted, save for other mages. Mages don't have to turn into 'magisters'. If they own property or have status as a noble family sobeit. This doesn't mean they will resort to blood magic, and if they do, there is no reason to immediately believe they will use it for ill as every mage like people in general are inquisitive and curious about the unknown. Too much one-sided propaganda has been circulated to scare the general populous into the Chantry taking authority with the templars as their sword.

Only that is exactly what happened in the imperium. "And the magisters rule again." Unless your convinced Fenris is a one man chantry propaganda machine.

Seriously, using what happened in Tevinter to attempt to prove that mages won't turn to blood magic in a free society is a bit of a shot in the foot.

Instead of doing this, how about allowing them to attend an academy that is supported by the crown and taught by mage instructors and the Chantry Templars alike? Of course the templars would need better educations as well, but that only supports a stronger curriculum and teaching base. A Magical Academy that puts the needs of exploring magic for the good of all and not for insideous means. Magic cannot serve man if it is being restricted under a terrorish leash. Caged, and put into a corner long enough and even the most sane individual will rebel.

I cannot abide by the ideology that oppression and fear are good reasons to enslave and outlaw humans that are different and have different abilities that others. God only knows what will happen when humans IRL start showing ability to do the extraordinary, guess we should cage and leash them too, hmm?

Yes, lets pretend its Harry Potter.
The Fereldan circle, for all intents and purposes seemed close enough to what you envision. It was one maniac with notions of becoming a magister that brought them down.

And, you must not jump the gun on that last point. In Thedas the magisters ruled the world for generations, and slavery was rampant. It took Andraste to free the majority of the landmass from that tyranny. Trying to compare that situation to a sudden appearance of wizards on our world is just bad logic.

[Rifneno]

barryl89 wrote...

Yes, lets pretend its Harry Potter.

Take it away, Sten!

[LobselVith8]

KJandrew wrote...

Yes but as part of the agreement the mages wanted buildings were all the mages could live and not have to deal with the public's fearmongering

Which is what we're told from the Chantry scholar, but I don't see any reason we should think it's 100% accurate or without bias when we know the Chantry scholars have also claimed the Dalish started the war that lead to the Exalted March against the Dales, and the Dalish claim otherwise. Saying mages wanted to go into prisons for the rest of their lives makes it more acceptable, so I have little doubt that there's no bias or inaccuracy to the Chantry scholar's claim that mages happily went into prisons where they were denied basic rights and had little control over their lives when David Gaider has gone on the record as saying the codex entries are colored by bias.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 10 avril 2011 - 07:31 .

[LobselVith8]

barryl89 wrote...

Only that is exactly what happened in the imperium. "And the magisters rule again." Unless your convinced Fenris is a one man chantry propaganda machine.

The nation of Rivain, the Chasind Wilders, and the Dalish have free mages, and none of those societies have mages trying to be Magisters or trying to enforce a brutal rule of slavery over the people.

barryl89 wrote...

Seriously, using what happened in Tevinter to attempt to prove that mages won't turn to blood magic in a free society is a bit of a shot in the foot.

From what I read, the comments were addressing how the templars could be used in the same capacity as the ones in Tevinter are - protecting people as opposed to ruling over them.

barryl89 wrote...

Yes, lets pretend its Harry Potter.
The Fereldan circle, for all intents and purposes seemed close enough to what you envision. It was one maniac with notions of becoming a magister that brought them down.

Incorrect. Uldred never said he wanted to be a Magister. In fact, the unnamed blood mage you speak to says that the revolution happened because they wanted freedom from the Chantry.

barryl89 wrote...

And, you must not jump the gun on that last point. In Thedas the magisters ruled the world for generations, and slavery was rampant. It took Andraste to free the majority of the landmass from that tyranny. Trying to compare that situation to a sudden appearance of wizards on our world is just bad logic.

And now the Chantry of Andraste controls the lives of the mages across Thedas for nearly a millennia.

[barryl89]

LobselVith8 wrote...

barryl89 wrote...

Only that is exactly what happened in the imperium. "And the magisters rule again." Unless your convinced Fenris is a one man chantry propaganda machine.

The nation of Rivain, the Chasind Wilders, and the Dalish have free mages, and none of those societies have mages trying to be Magisters or trying to enforce a brutal rule of slavery over the people.

barryl89 wrote...

Seriously, using what happened in Tevinter to attempt to prove that mages won't turn to blood magic in a free society is a bit of a shot in the foot.

From what I read, the comments were addressing how the templars could be used in the same capacity as the ones in Tevinter are - protecting people as opposed to ruling over them.

barryl89 wrote...

Yes, lets pretend its Harry Potter.
The Fereldan circle, for all intents and purposes seemed close enough to what you envision. It was one maniac with notions of becoming a magister that brought them down.

Incorrect. Uldred never said he wanted to be a Magister. In fact, the unnamed blood mage you speak to says that the revolution happened because they wanted freedom from the Chantry.

barryl89 wrote...

And, you must not jump the gun on that last point. In Thedas the magisters ruled the world for generations, and slavery was rampant. It took Andraste to free the majority of the landmass from that tyranny. Trying to compare that situation to a sudden appearance of wizards on our world is just bad logic.

And now the Chantry of Andraste controls the lives of the mages across Thedas for nearly a millennia.

Again with the Rivaini...... Rivain was a Chantry controlled nation, a Qunari occupied nation and then reconquered by an Exalted March. Their mages are not out front so to speak, they are village wise women and the likes. The chasind are a handful of wild folk, they don't have the numbers, likewise the Dalish.

Uldred was about to lead a horde of abominations against Denerim. He may have been possessed but his pride demanded the power to do it.

Also mages are a minority, them ruling the majority is anti democracy. All evidence points them dominating mundane men if they are left unchecked.

As for the Tampars in Tevinter comment. I know. I pointed out that it resulted in the Magisters arising again and using blood magic freely.

[Rifneno]

barryl89 wrote...

Also mages are a minority, them ruling the majority is anti democracy. All evidence points them dominating mundane men if they are left unchecked.

It's a matter of power corrupting, and a matter of society.  I firmly believe the only reason Tevinter stays the way it does is because the new generation is always taught by the old one, which was evil and cutthroat.  Children of powerful magisters in Tevinter are raised being taught that people without magic don't matter, that it's okay to use and abuse them, that it's okay to do anything for power.  In most other nations of Thedas, society is very different and mages are taught the difference between right and wrong.  I strongly believe that giving mages more freedom won't automatically turn them into the Tevinter Imperium.  Is it possible things will go bad?  It's always possible.  But I think "power corrupts" is a bigger problem than "omgz demons run away."

Just my view though, don't have some grand sociological chart of a fictional people to be certain.

[LobselVith8]

barryl89 wrote...

Again with the Rivaini...... Rivain was a Chantry controlled nation, a Qunari occupied nation and then reconquered by an Exalted March. Their mages are not out front so to speak, they are village wise women and the likes. The chasind are a handful of wild folk, they don't have the numbers, likewise the Dalish.

Actually, if you read the codex on Rivain, you'd see that it is an indepedent kingdom that has their own religion. A large percentage of the human population are Kont-aar. They have a good relationship with the Qunari, since they negotiated the truce between the Andrastian nations and the Qunari during the New Exalted Marches, but they're an independent kingdom.

The Chasind tribes and the Dalish clans are evidence that free mages =/= the Imperium.

barryl89 wrote...

Uldred was about to lead a horde of abominations against Denerim. He may have been possessed but his pride demanded the power to do it.

He was an abomination, and you're still incorrect in saying he wanted to be a Magister when there is no evidence to make such a claim.

barryl89 wrote...

Also mages are a minority, them ruling the majority is anti democracy.

Do you think the Empress ruling Orlais or the King or Queen ruling Ferelden is democracy?

barryl89 wrote...

All evidence points them dominating mundane men if they are left unchecked.

Except for the examples I provided that state otherwise. Free mages =/= the Imperium if we have a number of examples that illustrate this point.

barryl89 wrote...

As for the Tampars in Tevinter comment. I know. I pointed out that it resulted in the Magisters arising again and using blood magic freely.

It's technically illegal, but it's said they still use it behind closed doors.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Uhm the Chasind and the Dalish are the exact proof of free mages=Imperium. In case you didn't notice both the CHasind and the Dalish are ruled by mages. The fact that they havn't conquered the world yet can be ascribed to their numbers.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Uhm the Chasind and the Dalish are the exact proof of free mages=Imperium. In case you didn't notice both the CHasind and the Dalish are ruled by mages. The fact that they havn't conquered the world yet can be ascribed to their numbers.

That's like saying Ferelden or Orlais = the Imperium because humans are in charge. There are mages who are in positions of leadership in the Dalish clans and Chasind tribes, but the slavery and oppression of the Imperium don't mark the societies of the Dalish clans or the Chasind Wilders. Neither the Dalish nor the Chasind are trying to emulate the Imperium. They are proof that free mages =/= the Imperium.

[barryl89]

Do you think the Empress ruling Orlais or the King or Queen ruling Ferelden is democracy?

OK I admit that was a stupid comment by myself. But what I mean is that Mages are people. People are corrupted by power. Its a lot easier to take down a mundane Tyrant than an Archon/Black Divine.

And why do you not admit that the Chasind and Dalish are terrible examples?

I'll take your Rivain as a maybe, while I don't really agree, I don't have enough evidence to support my argument.

[LobselVith8]

barryl89 wrote...

And why do you not admit that the Chasind and Dalish are terrible examples?

Because mages in positions of leadership don't equate to the Imperium, which is a tyranny that oppress people and endorses slavery. It's like saying the Magi Warden from DA:O becoming the Teyrn of Gwaren means that the teynir of Gwaren or the nation of Ferelden = the Imperium because a mage is in a position of authority.

[barryl89]

That's like saying Ferelden or Orlais = the Imperium because humans are in charge. There are mages who are in positions of leadership in the Dalish clans and Chasind tribes, but the slavery and oppression of the Imperium don't mark the societies of the Dalish clans or the Chasind Wilders. Neither the Dalish nor the Chasind are trying to emulate the Imperium. They are proof that free mages =/= the Imperium.

Again. If the Chasind tried to emulate the Imperium they would be annihilated, likewise the Dalish. They are fringe groups.

Now if a magocracy rose in Orlais, then you could compare Orlais to Tevinter. But it has not happened. BECAUSE, their founder created an empire dedicated to Andraste, someone who defied the mage led imperium and freed the slaves. It has not happened because the Templars ward against it. When the Templars stepped back in Tevinter, the Magisters took over again and even corupted the chantry there. They use blood magic freely, saying it is behind closed doors is a redundant point because everyone knows they do it.

Because mages in positions of leadership don't equate to the Imperium, which is a tyranny that oppress people and endorses slavery. It's like saying the Magi Warden from DA:O becoming the Teyrn of Gwaren means that the teynir of Gwaren or the nation of Ferelden = the Imperium because a mage is in a position of authority.

Being realistic, do you not think the Divine would be watching Fereldan very closely for signs of corruption?

It is a bad example either way because it is one of many possible endings from origins.

[Rifneno]

barryl89 wrote...

Again. If the Chasind tried to emulate the Imperium they would be annihilated, likewise the Dalish. They are fringe groups.

Ahh, and we're back to mages being guilty until proven innocent.  Lovely.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Uhm the Chasind and the Dalish are the exact proof of free mages=Imperium. In case you didn't notice both the CHasind and the Dalish are ruled by mages. The fact that they havn't conquered the world yet can be ascribed to their numbers.

That's like saying Ferelden or Orlais = the Imperium because humans are in charge. There are mages who are in positions of leadership in the Dalish clans and Chasind tribes, but the slavery and oppression of the Imperium don't mark the societies of the Dalish clans or the Chasind Wilders. Neither the Dalish nor the Chasind are trying to emulate the Imperium. They are proof that free mages =/= the Imperium.

No. It is like saying that whenvever mages are free, they rule.

[barryl89]

Rifneno wrote...

barryl89 wrote...

Again. If the Chasind tried to emulate the Imperium they would be annihilated, likewise the Dalish. They are fringe groups.

Ahh, and we're back to mages being guilty until proven innocent.  Lovely.

Not exactly. I'm saying that the Chasind and Dalish mages couldn't start up a kingdom of New-Tevinter because both the Chantry and regualr Tevinter would crush them. Like the original Imperium did to Arlathan.

[TheJist]

Rifneno wrote...

barryl89 wrote...

Again. If the Chasind tried to emulate the Imperium they would be annihilated, likewise the Dalish. They are fringe groups.

Ahh, and we're back to mages being guilty until proven innocent.  Lovely.

More like humans are naturally this way it is just part of human nature and very few can resist the tempation to use power to put them selves in a position over others.

[barryl89]

More like humans are naturally this way it is just part of human nature and very few can resist the tempation to use power to put them selves in a position over others.

Very much this. If you view mages as super powered humans, then they will inevitably be corrupted by the power. Realistically, taking into account historical evidence from our world and game lore you have to admit that even if a huge majority of mages live quiet lives, a minority of them will seek to dominate lesser men.

Modifié par barryl89, 10 avril 2011 - 09:05 .

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

That's like saying Ferelden or Orlais = the Imperium because humans are in charge. There are mages who are in positions of leadership in the Dalish clans and Chasind tribes, but the slavery and oppression of the Imperium don't mark the societies of the Dalish clans or the Chasind Wilders. Neither the Dalish nor the Chasind are trying to emulate the Imperium. They are proof that free mages =/= the Imperium.

No. It is like saying that whenvever mages are free, they rule.

Arlathan was said to be a nation entirely composed of elven mages who lost their magical ability and immortality because of interaction with humanity, and that plays a part in how the Dalish clans are. The Chasind chose a Shaman according to their traditions. You make sweeping generalizations that don't adhere to the lore of Thedas.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

That's like saying Ferelden or Orlais = the Imperium because humans are in charge. There are mages who are in positions of leadership in the Dalish clans and Chasind tribes, but the slavery and oppression of the Imperium don't mark the societies of the Dalish clans or the Chasind Wilders. Neither the Dalish nor the Chasind are trying to emulate the Imperium. They are proof that free mages =/= the Imperium.

No. It is like saying that whenvever mages are free, they rule.

Arlathan was said to be a nation entirely composed of elven mages who lost their magical ability and immortality because of interaction with humanity, and that plays a part in how the Dalish clans are. The Chasind chose a Shaman according to their traditions. You make sweeping generalizations that don't adhere to the lore of Thedas.

Then show me one example of free mages not being in positions of power, in their respective societies.

[LobselVith8]

barryl89 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

That's like saying Ferelden or Orlais = the Imperium because humans are in charge. There are mages who are in positions of leadership in the Dalish clans and Chasind tribes, but the slavery and oppression of the Imperium don't mark the societies of the Dalish clans or the Chasind Wilders. Neither the Dalish nor the Chasind are trying to emulate the Imperium. They are proof that free mages =/= the Imperium.

Again. If the Chasind tried to emulate the Imperium they would be annihilated, likewise the Dalish. They are fringe groups.

So your theory is that their inaction in trying to emulate Tevinter is actually evidence that the Chasind and Dalish want to be like Tevinter?

barryl89 wrote...

Now if a magocracy rose in Orlais, then you could compare Orlais to Tevinter. But it has not happened. BECAUSE, their founder created an empire dedicated to Andraste, someone who defied the mage led imperium and freed the slaves. It has not happened because the Templars ward against it. When the Templars stepped back in Tevinter, the Magisters took over again and even corupted the chantry there. They use blood magic freely, saying it is behind closed doors is a redundant point because everyone knows they do it.

Andraste and Shartan freed the slaves and lead a rebellion against a tyranny, and we have no idea whether either of them were mages (and at least one book makes the claim that Andraste was a mage). The Dales was given to the elves by Andraste's children, mages came into positions of power and authority, and they didn't emulate the Imperium. Also, the Chantry has its templars use blood magic via the phylactery they use to hunt down the respective mage.

barryl89 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Because mages in positions of leadership don't equate to the Imperium, which is a tyranny that oppress people and endorses slavery. It's like saying the Magi Warden from DA:O becoming the Teyrn of Gwaren means that the teynir of Gwaren or the nation of Ferelden = the Imperium because a mage is in a position of authority.

Being realistic, do you not think the Divine would be watching Fereldan very closely for signs of corruption?

It is a bad example either way because it is one of many possible endings from origins.

It's not a bad example if it's an actual possibility, especially when coupled with the fact that the Hero of Ferelden from the Circle of Magi can still end up as the Arl of Amaranthine regardless of asking for a title and riches from the ruler of Ferelden (as the Commander of the Grey, no less).

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Then show me one example of free mages not being in positions of power, in their respective societies.

Again, mages in positions of power =/= the slave driven regime of the Imperium that enslaves mages and non-mages alike.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Then show me one example of free mages not being in positions of power, in their respective societies.

Again, mages in positions of power =/= the slave driven regime of the Imperium that enslaves mages and non-mages alike.

Who is talking about slaves? Give me the example I asked for. Or admit, that whenever mages are free, they inevitably form a ruling echelon, of their respective society.