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[Rifneno]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Then show me one example of free mages not being in positions of power, in their respective societies.

Again, mages in positions of power =/= the slave driven regime of the Imperium that enslaves mages and non-mages alike.

Who is talking about slaves? Give me the example I asked for. Or admit, that whenever mages are free, they inevitably form a ruling echelon, of their respective society.

So, we should lock up all the men irl because men are always the ones in power.

[Abispa]

Mages can become the equivalent of WMDs. Just ask the Dalish about the their war with Tevinter.

The Chantry did not spring up out of a vacuum. It was established on the legend of a Christ-like woman who challenged an oppressive rule of magisters that practice genocide and slavery. Given what I've read about Andraste in various codex, I'm sure she'd be disappointed how the religion founded in her name has been responsible for it's own atrocities.

I found it curious that societies outside of the "official" Chantry and the Qun, like the Chasind and the Dalish, seem to have mages in leadership roles by default. I agree that mages should not be treated like monsters without just cause, but I think fear of oppression from unregulated mages existed long before the Chantry.

Even the Dalish, who seem to be most at peace with their mages, seem to automatically place the mantle of leadership on a person simply by him or her being a mage. I wonder what would have happened if one of the hunters challenged the Keeper's decision to stay in one place so long? Could s/he have done so "legally"? They were in danger from Templars and magical creatures, and lost at least a dozen valuable hunters during their decade at Kirkwall. One woman, because she was a mage, was able to risk the entire clan for reasons she never explained to them.

You can argue that the Dalish voluntarily went along with her decision and weren't terrorized, but that isn't "right" any more than a kindly Templar having unlimited police power over mages conditioned by the Chantry.

[LobselVith8]

Abispa wrote...

Even the Dalish, who seem to be most at peace with their mages, seem to automatically place the mantle of leadership on a person simply by him or her being a mage.

It's based on elven lore. The Dalish believe that the Arlathan elves were a nation of mages who were immortal, and that the elves lost their immortality (along with every elf being a mage) because of their interaction with the humans from the Imperium. It's no different than human nations placing the mantle of leadership with someone who has "noble" blood (which seems to be the case in all nations except for the Imperium and the Qunari).

[IanPolaris]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Abispa wrote...

Even the Dalish, who seem to be most at peace with their mages, seem to automatically place the mantle of leadership on a person simply by him or her being a mage.

It's based on elven lore. The Dalish believe that the Arlathan elves were a nation of mages who were immortal, and that the elves lost their immortality (along with every elf being a mage) because of their interaction with the humans from the Imperium. It's no different than human nations placing the mantle of leadership with someone who has "noble" blood (which seems to be the case in all nations except for the Imperium and the Qunari).

Also remember that according to Dalish Lore, ALL elves were mages, so it's not a matter of mages lording it over everyone else because they are mages and use magic to dominate everyone. It is as Lob suggests...those with magic are presumed to have a closer connection to their ancestors and thus are considered a type of nobility.  Some might not recognize the difference but it is there and it is important.

-Polaris

[Abispa]

I have a sneaky suspicion that DA "truth" and "Elven lore" probably aren't the same thing. And how is the Keeper arrangement based on "lore" any more just than The Circle being based on "Magic is to serve man, not rule over him"? Both are unprovable and open to interpretation, and blind belief is stupid, no matter the source. Even if Elves USED to be all-magic and immortal, they AREN'T NOW. A woman, no matter how well intentioned, jeopardized her entire clan without explaination, and storytellers, craftsman, and hunters were unwilling, or "legally" unable, to challenge her authority she got simply by being a mage.

[sphinxess]

[quote]Rifneno wrote...

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Then show me one example of free mages not being in positions of power, in their respective societies.[/quote]

Again, mages in positions of power =/= the slave driven regime of the Imperium that enslaves mages and non-mages alike.[/quote]
Who is talking about slaves? Give me the example I asked for. Or admit, that whenever mages are free, they inevitably form a ruling echelon, of their respective society.[/quote]

How about the mages collective from DA:O? Any known free mage within reach of the Chantry is going to be killed or dragged off to a tower - hard to show examples with this working against them.

Modifié par sphinxess, 10 avril 2011 - 10:54 .

[Abispa]

In addition, by accepting that mages are closer to being "true" Elves, doesn't that automatically make all non-magical Elves LESS than "true" Elves? Even if an Elf accepts his diminished role, automatically given in childhood, how is that NOT as pathetic as being a "well-treated" Black slave in the Old South?

[Rifneno]

Abispa wrote...

Mages can become the equivalent of WMDs.

No they can't.  You clearly don't know what a WMD is.

[LobselVith8]

Abispa wrote...

I have a sneaky suspicion that DA "truth" and "Elven lore" probably aren't the same thing. And how is the Keeper arrangement based on "lore" any more just than The Circle being based on "Magic is to serve man, not rule over him"? Both are unprovable and open to interpretation, and blind belief is stupid, no matter the source. Even if Elves USED to be all-magic and immortal, they AREN'T NOW. A woman, no matter how well intentioned, jeopardized her entire clan without explaination, and storytellers, craftsman, and hunters were unwilling, or "legally" unable, to challenge her authority she got simply by being a mage.

It's what they believe to be true; we already know there were elven mages from Witch Hunt, and we have no way of disproving what they hold to be the truth of their past. As for making mistakes, anyone can make a mistake in a position of leadership. King Cailan jeapordized the entire nation of Ferelden with his intended marriage to Empress Celene I, and Loghain wasn't "legally" able to challenge Cailan on his intent to allow four legions of chevaliers from entering the nation they enslaved for over a century (and we're specifically told by King Alistair in DA2 that some of the Orlesians want to re-take control of the nation of Ferelden).

[ZenoX]

Yeah, you point a finger back far enough and some germ gets blamed for splitting in two.

[LobselVith8]

Abispa wrote...

In addition, by accepting that mages are closer to being "true" Elves, doesn't that automatically make all non-magical Elves LESS than "true" Elves? Even if an Elf accepts his diminished role, automatically given in childhood, how is that NOT as pathetic as being a "well-treated" Black slave in the Old South?

The Dalish never state non-mage elves are "less than true elves" at all. In fact, they are willing to protect Feyrniel from the templars who tortured a len despite the fact that he's half-human.

ZenoX wrote...

Yeah, you point a finger back far enough and some germ gets blamed for splitting in two.

Thank you for your insight, Colonel Tigh!

Modifié par LobselVith8, 10 avril 2011 - 11:00 .

[Abispa]

@ Rifneno -- I understand that the Tevinter mages totally destroyed the original civilization of the Elves by sinking it into the sea. The US couldn't do that to Japan during WWII despite the fact that we did use WMDs. Therefore, Tevinter mages are even MORE destructive than WMDs. Of course, Bioware could always introduce a game a says the codex are wrong.

@l LobselVith8 -- My conclusions are based on observation of the Dalish in both games, and there could always be information given to prove that I'm way off base. I, unlike many who post in these forums, and careful not to argue my opinions are facts, especially since these games are fiction. I suppose I should make my opinions clearer by saying "as it APPEARS in the game," but I digress.

The Keeper accepted Feyrniel and so did the clan. However, DA2 never made it clear if the clan agreed with the Keeper or merely accepted her word as law. In a way, I hope I am wrong, and would be happy if we see a respected hunter over-ride a naive Keeper in a future DLC or game to flesh out what the level of authority they have.

[barryl89]

It's what they believe to be true; we already know there were elven mages from Witch Hunt, and we have no way of disproving what they hold to be the truth of their past. As for making mistakes, anyone can make a mistake in a position of leadership. King Cailan jeapordized the entire nation of Ferelden with his intended marriage to Empress Celene I, and Loghain wasn't "legally" able to challenge Cailan on his intent to allow four legions of chevaliers from entering the nation they enslaved for over a century (and we're specifically told by King Alistair in DA2 that some of the Orlesians want to re-take control of the nation of Ferelden).

Sigh.... An occupation is not the same as being enslaved. And where did you get the idea Cailan was going to marry Celene. That is utterly false. If you are referring to Return to Ostagar it only mentions an alliance. Eamon in another letter tells him to ditch Anora but Cailan refuses him

Orlais does not have slavery. Don't try to beat around the bush, it is clearly mentioned in several places that slavery only exists in mage led Tevinter. You cannot deny that without completely invalidating your argument.

[The Baconer]

barryl89 wrote...
Orlais does not have slavery. Don't try to beat around the bush, it is clearly mentioned in several places that slavery only exists in mage led Tevinter. You cannot deny that without completely invalidating your argument.

Actually, yes I can, and I've already done it before.

"If they’re lucky, they end up in Orlais, which has only 'servants.' Most nobles treat them decently because they are afraid of admitting the truth. Orlesians go to great lengths to maintain the fiction that slavery is illegal."
-From the Codex

Antiva is also guilty of having government-backed human trafficking and servitude (Crows)

Modifié par The Baconer, 11 avril 2011 - 02:44 .

[barryl89]

Actually, yes I can, and I've already done it before.

"If they’re lucky, they end up in Orlais, which has only 'servants.' Most nobles treat them decently because they are afraid of admitting the truth. Orlesians go to great lengths to maintain the fiction that slavery is illegal."
-From the Codex

Antiva is also guilty of having government-backed human trafficking and servitude (Crows)

So let me get this right. They pay the servants and let them live in luxury.. therefore they are slaves. No that makes absolutely no sense to me. I'm going on how Leliana describes it to the PC. So produce me a link to a wiki entry on said codex entry or prove me wrong by disproving Leliana
If you go down that route then Fereldan has slavery too.

Now Antiva. Yeah your probably right there.

[LobselVith8]

Abispa wrote...

@l LobselVith8 -- My conclusions are based on observation of the Dalish in both games, and there could always be information given to prove that I'm way off base. I, unlike many who post in these forums, and careful not to argue my opinions are facts, especially since these games are fiction. I suppose I should make my opinions clearer by saying "as it APPEARS in the game," but I digress.

All I did was disagree with you based on my own observations of the Dalish clan.

Abispa wrote...

The Keeper accepted Feyrniel and so did the clan. However, DA2 never made it clear if the clan agreed with the Keeper or merely accepted her word as law.

She's their leader, and they care about her; that's why they're willing to kill Hawke and Merrill over her death.

Abispa wrote...

In a way, I hope I am wrong, and would be happy if we see a respected hunter over-ride a naive Keeper in a future DLC or game to flesh out what the level of authority they have.

Isn't that like saying you'd hope to see a soldier override the authority of a King because they disagree on an issue? The Keepers are the leaders of the clan, and there's no democracy in Thedas - anywhere.

[The Baconer]

barryl89 wrote...

So let me get this right. They pay the servants and let them live in luxury.. therefore they are slaves. No that makes absolutely no sense to me. I'm going on how Leliana describes it to the PC. So produce me a link to a wiki entry on said codex entry or prove me wrong by disproving Leliana
If you go down that route then Fereldan has slavery too.

Now Antiva. Yeah your probably right there.

http://dragonage.wik...vinter_Imperium

[barryl89]

Slavery
still thrives in Thedas, even if the trade has been outlawed. Who
hasn't heard the tales of poverty-stricken elves lured into ships by the
prospect of well-paying jobs in Antiva, only to find themselves clapped in leg-irons once at sea? And humans fall prey to this, too.

If they’re lucky, they end up in Orlais, which has only
"servants." Most nobles treat them decently because they are afraid of
admitting the truth. Orlesians go to great lengths to maintain the
fiction that slavery is illegal.

Of course, the greatest consumer of slave labor is the Tevinter
Imperium, which would surely crumble if not for the endless supply of
slaves from all over the continent. There, they are meat, chattel. They
are beaten, used as fodder in the endless war against the Qunari, and
even serve as components in dark magic rituals.
—From Black City, Black Divine: A Study of the Tevinter Imperium, by Sister Petrine, Chantry scholar

Alright. you win that argument. But I have bolded the part that supports or at least justifies my distrust of a completely free mage society.

[The Baconer]

barryl89 wrote...

Alright. you win that argument. But I have bolded the part that supports or at least justifies my distrust of a completely free mage society.

And we only have one society with free mages where that happens. Even considering Tevinter, the ratio of slaveholding nations without free mages and slaveholding nations with is 2 to 1.

[barryl89]

The Baconer wrote...

barryl89 wrote...

Alright. you win that argument. But I have bolded the part that supports or at least justifies my distrust of a completely free mage society.

And we only have one society with free mages where that happens. Even considering Tevinter, the ratio of slaveholding nations without free mages and slaveholding nations with is 2 to 1.

No you missed my point. Orlais is a very soft version of slavery (if at all) and I am tempted to call Fereldan bias on it, but I don't know where Petrine is from.

But the Tevinters don't just use them as slaves, they fuel magic. They are less than slaves, they are powerup packs.

[The Baconer]

barryl89 wrote...

No you missed my point. Orlais is a very soft version of slavery (if at all) and I am tempted to call Fereldan bias on it, but I don't know where Petrine is from.

Slavery is slavery. It's like looking at slavery in the states. Yes, a lot of slaves had arguably better living conditions while they were in servitude, but that doesn't mean it's okay.

But the Tevinters don't just use them as slaves, they fuel magic. They are less than slaves, they are powerup packs.

And every peasant might simply be a walking sex toy for a passing Chevalier. Doesn't make either side any more or less wrong than the other.

[TobiTobsen]

barryl89 wrote...

The Baconer wrote...

barryl89 wrote...

Alright. you win that argument. But I have bolded the part that supports or at least justifies my distrust of a completely free mage society.

And we only have one society with free mages where that happens. Even considering Tevinter, the ratio of slaveholding nations without free mages and slaveholding nations with is 2 to 1.

No you missed my point. Orlais is a very soft version of slavery (if at all) and I am tempted to call Fereldan bias on it, but I don't know where Petrine is from.

But the Tevinters don't just use them as slaves, they fuel magic. They are less than slaves, they are powerup packs.

Even the Chevaliers have the "right" to force themselves on these servants. That's not really a "soft" version, at least not in my book.

[barryl89]

TobiTobsen wrote...

barryl89 wrote...

The Baconer wrote...

barryl89 wrote...

Alright. you win that argument. But I have bolded the part that supports or at least justifies my distrust of a completely free mage society.

And we only have one society with free mages where that happens. Even considering Tevinter, the ratio of slaveholding nations without free mages and slaveholding nations with is 2 to 1.

No you missed my point. Orlais is a very soft version of slavery (if at all) and I am tempted to call Fereldan bias on it, but I don't know where Petrine is from.

But the Tevinters don't just use them as slaves, they fuel magic. They are less than slaves, they are powerup packs.

Even the Chevaliers have the "right" to force themselves on these servants. That's not really a "soft" version, at least not in my book.

Chevaliers can force themselves on anyone below them. Thats fuedalism, not techically slavery, but serfdom.

[Ramus Quaritch]

They brought it on themselves when Orsino was implicit in mama Hawke's murder and Anders committed an act of terrorism. There's no way my Hawke is siding with the Kirkwall mages after that.

[Rifneno]

Ramus Quaritch wrote...

They brought it on themselves when Orsino was implicit in mama Hawke's murder and Anders committed an act of terrorism. There's no way my Hawke is siding with the Kirkwall mages after that.

I know, right?  How dare they not keep those characters under blood control at all times so they can control their actions!