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[Lord Gremlin]

Nadiasama wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Yes but did Duncan take the joining when he was much younger? I don't think it's clear if age affects it or not.

In "The Calling" Duncan is described by Maric as being 18-19 years old. According
to the book Duncan underwent the joining 6 months prior. DA:O starts
20 years later so Duncan is actually going through his calling 10 sooner
than expected.

But Duncan wore Architect's corrupting amulet like others. It's never stated that black dagger he stole neutralized the effect completely.

[errant_knight]

Koyasha wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Nimpe wrote...

Alistair seriously needs to grow up and get over it.

Yeah, because abandoning the king, the wardens and an entire army--everyone he cared about--to be slaughtered,

That part, at least, is exactly the same thing Alistair does if you let Loghain live and don't make him king.

I can understand hating Loghain personally, but it's been years, he needs to get over it - sparing Loghain was the right thing to do.

Well, you think it was, anyway. I sure don't, not a bit. Why should he 'get over it?' You don't 'get over something like that. You just find ways to live with it, and that's not the same as forgetting or forgiving. Alistair's only mistake was leaving Ferelden, not leaving the warden. Expecting him to trust and fight along side Loghain was a bridge way too far.

[thesuperdarkone]

errant_knight wrote...

Koyasha wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Nimpe wrote...

Alistair seriously needs to grow up and get over it.

Yeah, because abandoning the king, the wardens and an entire army--everyone he cared about--to be slaughtered,

That part, at least, is exactly the same thing Alistair does if you let Loghain live and don't make him king.

I can understand hating Loghain personally, but it's been years, he needs to get over it - sparing Loghain was the right thing to do.

Well, you think it was, anyway. I sure don't, not a bit. Why should he 'get over it?' You don't 'get over something like that. You just find ways to live with it, and that's not the same as forgetting or forgiving. Alistair's only mistake was leaving Ferelden, not leaving the warden. Expecting him to trust and fight along side Loghain was a bridge way too far.

 

Fighting with Loghain= Yes, I understand him leaving us and not fighting with us directly.

However, there is no excuse for abanodoning Ferelden to its fate without at least participating in the fight in some way. This shows that Alistair was perfectly willing to let all of Ferelden and everyone in it die in the Blight just  because Loghain lived. No matter how much you may hate someone, leaving an entire nation to die has no excuse. If he at least appeared at Fort Drakon fighting the Archdemon or at least was mentioned to be fighting in the battle would've kept my respect and understanding. Instead, he abandons Ferelden and everything Duncan stood for by not doing what must be done. He's a hypocrite since he states that he's doing Duncan's justice by trying to kill Loghain but he goes against what Duncan would've wanted in ending the Blight by abandoning Ferelden.

[Neesa]

I don't care to debate the maturity of Alistair's decision but saying his leaving is the equivalent to an army abandoning it's post, in the heat of battle, is kind of ridiculous. Grossly overestimating his abilities in battle if anything.

Modifié par Neesa, 10 avril 2011 - 03:19 .

[errant_knight]

In his eyes, not only does the warden turn on him, but everyone else who was supposedly backing his claim to the throne. No one stands up for him, not even Eamon. While he'll come to think differently (hence part of the reason for the drinking, along with the sense of betrayal), at that moment he feels rejected by everyone, and basically replaced by Anora and Loghain. He probably feels pretty much unnecessary and unvalued. I doubt he's thinking of it as making any difference if he leaves since the warden chooses to have Loghain instead of him. It's not like he doesn't make it clear that it's one or the other or that the warden didn't know the kind of justice he expected.

Modifié par errant_knight, 10 avril 2011 - 06:39 .

[RavenB]

I don't think sparing Loghain was the "right" thing to do, personally. The man had already proven himself a power hungry, traitorous, nutjob. Why would I trust him? The events thereafter may prove that he doesn't turn against you during the blight, but I sure wouldn't trust him to it upon being given a choice what to do with him. Believing he'd be loyal in light of he actions seems downright stupid to me.

[Madkipz]

RavenB wrote...

I don't think sparing Loghain was the "right" thing to do, personally. The man had already proven himself a power hungry, traitorous, nutjob. Why would I trust him? The events thereafter may prove that he doesn't turn against you during the blight, but I sure wouldn't trust him to it upon being given a choice what to do with him. Believing he'd be loyal in light of he actions seems downright stupid to me.

the man was not power hungry he was simply the next in line to inherit the power after Cailan died.

the man was not a tratior, Arl Howe was.

the man was not a nutjob, he simply saw an impending Orlesian occupation and prevented the chance of it ever happening in his lifetime.

Bty becoming a grey warden he has to leave  his old life behind him. Alistair cant become king because he is still for all intents and purposes a grey warden. So Anora has to lead and she has to be queen.

[Maria13]

@ Raven agreed

As to this thing about Alistair betraying Ferelden by leaving... At the point at which he leaves he has already done far more than his fair share in commbatting the Blight. If he had chosen to stay who is to say that he would have survived until the final battle anyway?  The warden has betrayed him,  would Anora and Loghain risk a possible heir to the throne surviving the Blight?  They are both such trustworthy people, right?

From a certain point of view then, you could argue that leaving the country when he did is simple self-preservation and no more different from what Hawke and her family did, say.

As to the argument that leaving Ferelden was a betrayal of Duncan... Duncan was a pragmatist and it has been speculated that had he survived Ostagar he would have taken the vestiges of the Ferelden GWs to Orlais to mount a counter offensive risking allowing the whole of Ferelden to be overrun by the hoarde so, then...

Modifié par Maria13, 10 avril 2011 - 10:24 .

[RavenB]

Madkipz wrote...

RavenB wrote...

I don't think sparing Loghain was the "right" thing to do, personally. The man had already proven himself a power hungry, traitorous, nutjob. Why would I trust him? The events thereafter may prove that he doesn't turn against you during the blight, but I sure wouldn't trust him to it upon being given a choice what to do with him. Believing he'd be loyal in light of he actions seems downright stupid to me.

the man was not power hungry he was simply the next in line to inherit the power after Cailan died.

the man was not a tratior, Arl Howe was.

the man was not a nutjob, he simply saw an impending Orlesian occupation and prevented the chance of it ever happening in his lifetime.

Bty becoming a grey warden he has to leave  his old life behind him. Alistair cant become king because he is still for all intents and purposes a grey warden. So Anora has to lead and she has to be queen.

I see what he did at Ostagar as traitorous. Either he knew what Howe was doing and looked the other way, or he was too incompetent to know what his right hand was doing. He knew fully that elves were being sold as slaves. He attempted to poison Eamon because he knew he wouldn't support his antics. These things support "power hungry, traitorous, nutjob" pretty strongly to me.

Alistair clearly CAN become king as he has on every playthrough I've done of Origins, without a joint ruling with Anora. You may not SUPPORT it, but he very obviously CAN.

[Morroian]

Madkipz wrote...

the man was not a tratior, Arl Howe was.

Without going into the legalities effectively committing regicide is traitorous, and he did know what Howe had done and tacitly approved after the fact.

Madkipz wrote...

the man was not a nutjob, he simply saw an impending Orlesian occupation and prevented the chance of it ever happening in his lifetime.

Only that was mostly in his mind, and he had other options anyway.

Modifié par Morroian, 10 avril 2011 - 11:53 .

[Madkipz]

RavenB wrote...

Madkipz wrote...

RavenB wrote...

I don't think sparing Loghain was the "right" thing to do, personally. The man had already proven himself a power hungry, traitorous, nutjob. Why would I trust him? The events thereafter may prove that he doesn't turn against you during the blight, but I sure wouldn't trust him to it upon being given a choice what to do with him. Believing he'd be loyal in light of he actions seems downright stupid to me.

the man was not power hungry he was simply the next in line to inherit the power after Cailan died.

the man was not a tratior, Arl Howe was.

the man was not a nutjob, he simply saw an impending Orlesian occupation and prevented the chance of it ever happening in his lifetime.

Bty becoming a grey warden he has to leave  his old life behind him. Alistair cant become king because he is still for all intents and purposes a grey warden. So Anora has to lead and she has to be queen.

I see what he did at Ostagar as traitorous. Either he knew what Howe was doing and looked the other way, or he was too incompetent to know what his right hand was doing. He knew fully that elves were being sold as slaves. He attempted to poison Eamon because he knew he wouldn't support his antics. These things support "power hungry, traitorous, nutjob" pretty strongly to me.

Alistair clearly CAN become king as he has on every playthrough I've done of Origins, without a joint ruling with Anora. You may not SUPPORT it, but he very obviously CAN.

Yes he can, but that goes against everything the grey wardens stand for. Loghain sorta had to support howe, or he would not have had much support for his methods left. ;/

Modifié par Madkipz, 10 avril 2011 - 11:58 .

[SRWill64]

The whole subject of whether Loghain was a traitor is terribly clear to me and Howe was no better...before Loghain got to Ostagar he had Howe kill the Couslands because they were loyal to the crown...And he approached the blood mage Jowan before he even left Denerim to have Arl Eamon poisoned....
This wasn't power hunger...Maric offered him the throne before he took it himself...Maric didn't want to be king. This was simply a man whose fear of the Orlesians got out of hand and who betrayed his king out of fear for the freedom of his country....

But I don't think he ever considered what would happen to Ferelden if the darkspawn overran the country...Ferelden would be destroyed, the darkspawn would be defeated at the Ferelden border because the Orlesians were ready for them, and then Orlais could walk in and take over whatever was left....if they had a mind to.

Loghain's reasoning was flawed and his perception of the whole situation was skewed. Cailan understood the importance of the Orlesian Grey Warden's support but couldn't get Loghain to see it. Cailan also knew Alistair was his half-brother and sent him and the 'new Grey Warden' to the Tower of Ishal because he wanted to be sure that at least one of Maric's sons were on the throne in case the battle went badly...and I think he had a suspicion that Loghain would do what he did. If you watch that part where you attend the strategy meeting and watch Loghain's face when he says "Yes, Cailan...a glorious moment for us all..." he almost smiles....for Loghain, it is the closest thing to a smile I ever see him crack.

And it doesn't surprise me a bit that Loghain betrays Cailan at Ostagar...if you have ever read the books, especially The Stolen Throne, you would see that Loghain betrayed Maric time after time, though Maric was blinded by it because of his tendency to look at the best in a person and overlook their flaws, even after Flemeth warned him about Loghain being a traitor, each betrayal being worst than the last.

Modifié par SRWill64, 10 avril 2011 - 04:48 .

[da0Xeffect2]

I do not mind Alistair still resenting Loghain after all this time. I wish I could've convinced them that it was for the good of the world and as GWs we had to stop the Blight at all cost. He knew it but didn't want to believe it. I do hope that he forgives my GW, which he might since he was his best friend for about 2 years.

[Rifneno]

Gilsa wrote...

Loghain does not get the full 30 years of being a warden. I recall one of the epilogues saying the taint wore too hard on his body and he died after several years. I'm a little surprised Alistair refers to him as being alive by the time Act 3 rolls around, but why quibble? =p

Epliogues are lies by apostates seeking to spread subversion against the Chantry!

[Addai]

SRWill64 wrote...

The whole subject of whether Loghain was a traitor is terribly clear to me and Howe was no better...before Loghain got to Ostagar he had Howe kill the Couslands because they were loyal to the crown..

I feel like a broken record at this point, but no he didn't.  Gaider has stated in the forums that Loghain had nothing to do with the Cousland massacre.

And it doesn't surprise me a bit that Loghain betrays Cailan at Ostagar...if you have ever read the books, especially The Stolen Throne, you would see that Loghain betrayed Maric time after time, though Maric was blinded by it because of his tendency to look at the best in a person and overlook their flaws, even after Flemeth warned him about Loghain being a traitor, each betrayal being worst than the last.

Uh... what?  When does Loghain betray Maric, let alone "over and over"?  The only instance I can think of is where he withholds information about Katriel because he's afraid that Maric will act out of softness rather than do what needs to be done.  You could call it a betrayal or manipulation, or you could call it tough love.

[RavenB]

Madkipz wrote...

RavenB wrote...

Madkipz wrote...

RavenB wrote...

I don't think sparing Loghain was the "right" thing to do, personally. The man had already proven himself a power hungry, traitorous, nutjob. Why would I trust him? The events thereafter may prove that he doesn't turn against you during the blight, but I sure wouldn't trust him to it upon being given a choice what to do with him. Believing he'd be loyal in light of he actions seems downright stupid to me.

the man was not power hungry he was simply the next in line to inherit the power after Cailan died.

the man was not a tratior, Arl Howe was.

the man was not a nutjob, he simply saw an impending Orlesian occupation and prevented the chance of it ever happening in his lifetime.

Bty becoming a grey warden he has to leave  his old life behind him. Alistair cant become king because he is still for all intents and purposes a grey warden. So Anora has to lead and she has to be queen.

I see what he did at Ostagar as traitorous. Either he knew what Howe was doing and looked the other way, or he was too incompetent to know what his right hand was doing. He knew fully that elves were being sold as slaves. He attempted to poison Eamon because he knew he wouldn't support his antics. These things support "power hungry, traitorous, nutjob" pretty strongly to me.

Alistair clearly CAN become king as he has on every playthrough I've done of Origins, without a joint ruling with Anora. You may not SUPPORT it, but he very obviously CAN.

Yes he can, but that goes against everything the grey wardens stand for. Loghain sorta had to support howe, or he would not have had much support for his methods left. ;/

If you listen to the intro from Origins at around 1:50 you'll hear; "Until the Grey Wardens came; Men and women from every race, warriors and mages, barbarians and [b]kings[/i]." So, my guess is that they loosen their stringent code of "no political involvement" when a Blight comes and the stakes get serious. Although, the wardens actually seem pretty interested in expanding their position, it seemed to me, considering their interest in Amaranthine.

If the only person he could get to support his "tactics" was the incredibly, staggeringly corrupt Howe, then I think that speaks pretty clearly for his "tactics" to begin with.

[SRWill64]

Addai67 wrote...

SRWill64 wrote...

The whole subject of whether Loghain was a traitor is terribly clear to me and Howe was no better...before Loghain got to Ostagar he had Howe kill the Couslands because they were loyal to the crown..

I feel like a broken record at this point, but no he didn't.  Gaider has stated in the forums that Loghain had nothing to do with the Cousland massacre.

And it doesn't surprise me a bit that Loghain betrays Cailan at Ostagar...if you have ever read the books, especially The Stolen Throne, you would see that Loghain betrayed Maric time after time, though Maric was blinded by it because of his tendency to look at the best in a person and overlook their flaws, even after Flemeth warned him about Loghain being a traitor, each betrayal being worst than the last.

Uh... what?  When does Loghain betray Maric, let alone "over and over"?  The only instance I can think of is where he withholds information about Katriel because he's afraid that Maric will act out of softness rather than do what needs to be done.  You could call it a betrayal or manipulation, or you could call it tough love.

Loghain betrayed Maric time and time again as foretold by Flemeth....it was quite clear to me....Maric didn't have to kill Katriel simply because she was going to join Maric's side of the war because she loved him and she knew that somehow she was going to die. That's why she wrote the instructions to Maric about how to overthrow the Olesian reign over Ferelden....about how to find the mage who was serving him....and she was also the one who prepared the poison that paralyzed him so Maric could kill him. Katriel helped Maric more than Loghain ever thought of. Maric lost a piece of his soul everytime Loghain made him do 'what he had to'. I personally think Maric should have went to Weissaupt with Fiona and took their son with him and told Loghain he could have the throne.  I wouldn't have given Loghain the chance to betray me or rip my heart and soul out. Maric was far too trusting. That was his only flaw.

Modifié par SRWill64, 12 avril 2011 - 04:17 .

[SRWill64]

I really don't see how people can say Loghain wasn't a traitor...he pulled his men out of Ostagar so his King would be killed, for pity's sake. There is no way that isn't treason.
Granted, Cailan may have died anyway but that doesn't matter. The darkspawn threat could have been dealt a severe blow that day if Loghain had stayed and fought. I think they would have won the day again, as they had in other skirmishes at Ostagar.

[Addai]

SRWill64 wrote...
Loghain betrayed Maric time and time again as foretold by Flemeth....it was quite clear to me....Maric didn't have to kill Katriel simply because she was going to join Maric's side of the war because she loved him and she knew that somehow she was going to die. That's why she wrote the instructions to Maric about how to overthrow the Olesian reign over Ferelden....about how to find the mage who was serving him....and she was also the one who prepared the poison that paralyzed him so Maric could kill him. Katriel helped Maric more than Loghain ever thought of. Maric lost a piece of his soul everytime Loghain made him do 'what he had to'. I personally think Maric should have went to Weissaupt with Fiona and took their son with him and told Loghain he could have the throne.  I wouldn't have given Loghain the chance to betray me or rip my heart and soul out. Maric was far too trusting. That was his only flaw.

Right, so like I said, I'll agree- with quibbles- that Loghain's actions with Katriel were a betrayal.  It's also very easy to argue, however, that she had it coming and that he did him a favor.  It would have been a disaster had it gotten out that the one who betrayed the army at West Hill was the prince's mistress.  The nobles might have refused to follow him any longer.  He could have let her go, but that too was dangerous.  It was ruthless, but it still served to ensure that the rebellion succeeded and Maric took his rightful throne.

If what you're saying is that Maric should never have become king, well, that's a little hard to argue.  Would there be a Ferelden if he hadn't?  Running off with Fiona sounds nice and romantic, but the little trick there is that Fiona didn't want that.  So is Loghain to be blamed for all of Maric's decisions, even the ones he (Loghain) didn't know about?

Modifié par Addai67, 12 avril 2011 - 06:03 .

[Addai]

SRWill64 wrote...

I really don't see how people can say Loghain wasn't a traitor...he pulled his men out of Ostagar so his King would be killed, for pity's sake. There is no way that isn't treason.
Granted, Cailan may have died anyway but that doesn't matter. The darkspawn threat could have been dealt a severe blow that day if Loghain had stayed and fought. I think they would have won the day again, as they had in other skirmishes at Ostagar.

Conjecture.  This was not a skirmish.  The horde was far larger than anyone had expected.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Oops. Deleted. Already answered.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 12 avril 2011 - 06:22 .

[ColdEnd]

The Angry One wrote...

Yeah get over the guy who killed his mentor and father figure, smeared his name, killed his brother and doomed the country.
How dare he resent Loghain being alive and well and a hero in the same order he's in.

"Father Figure", yeah... sure. If by "Father" you mean "Daddy"... preceeded by a "Who is your"