236 réponses à ce sujet

[Cutlass Jack]

barryl89 wrote...

Am I the only person who didn't get annoyed by the repeated areas in DA:2? I mean it is all the same city and surrounding environs so it would be silly if the architecture of every building wasn't similiar. I get why a lot don't like it but I think the settings are so visually interesting that it just about works. Sure they could have created a few more cave types but apart from that I'm ok with it.

No its pretty low on my list of things that bother me. I've seen it worse in other games. But thats only because I greatly enjoyed the dialogue and characterization. My attention isn't really focused on the location those happen in.

Having said that, I can see why it bothers others a great deal. And certainly wouldn't complain if they repeated less. Had I been in charge, at the very least I would have made more of an effort to disguise it better. Something as simple as changing the lighting would have gone a long way. As would simply rearranging the furnishings.

[CloudOfShadows]

I didn't miss them.

I actually thought the Drakensang games did the dungeons better than DA:O - they're entirely optional but sort of cool to visit.

I wouldn't mind if DA2 had a sort of optional sewer dungeon sort of thing underneath that you could descent into for some optional side quest. I already enjoyed some of the optional 'areas' with just battles, but a longer one would have been a nice addition.

Again, look to Drakensang for inspiration on that, I think.

[errant_knight]

I wouldn't describe the fade or the deep roads as a grind. The fights in DA2, those were a grind, wave after meaningless wave. While some people may not have liked those sections, I found them really immersive and full of meaningful gameplay, both in terms of roleplay and challenging combat. A tough fight is a whole lot more exciting when you're down to your last two potions and so deep in a dangerous area that you can't just nip over to the Brecillian forest to pick up some elfroot. Even smaller fights like the ancient darkspawn were potentially deadly. The fade is a big clever puzzle that can either be fairly easy if you use your abilities to advantage, or difficult, if you don't. Both areas require that you use your brain all the way through, not just charge through with your eye on the prize. They made for some of the most strategic play in the game. And you never knew what might be around the next corner, unlike DA2. In DA2, it's the same basic fight, over and over, happening in the same way and often in the same place. It was excruciating.

Modifié par errant_knight, 09 avril 2011 - 04:14 .

[jaybee93]

Yikes, no--I loved the story in DAO but the agony of the Deep Roads & Fade were more of a slog than a fun game.

[oldmansavage]

I used to play everquest and DA:O had no long grinds.

[Maria Caliban]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

The deep roads aspect in DA2 (felt to me) more for the short attention span type of person. That's how it felt imho.

P.s. You can't argue with me about how I feel/felt something towards game as it's not based in fact but emotions (well you can but it would be a silly thing to do). But in that regard it still holds true to me the feeling I got from it.

Oh s***, does that work?

The X-Box (feels to me) more for knuckle-draggers and people who eat paint chips. The PC feels more like it's for overweight types whose only social contact is social forums.

But the Mac? That feels like it's for sexy, sophisticated people who smell good and have great hair. That's how it feels imho.

P.s. You can't argue with me about how I feel cause Dragoonlordz said so.

[Moondoggie]

I don't miss them at all. After doing it once the Deep Roads in DAO is just irritating. It drags on with relentless fight after relentless fight and when you've done them once they aren';t very exciting. I find the whole part way too long while other quests were much shorter than they could have been to accomodate one really long quest. And the fade? Also very boring i have the skip the fade mod just because i can't be bothered to do it over and over because it takes too long and there's nothing interesting just a bunch of fights in quick succession.

Sure the Deep Roads in DA2 is short but at least all of it is storyline instead of a bit of storyline padded out with tons of fights to make it really long.

[billy the squid]

That would imply that certain aspects of DA O are universally considered a grind.

I don't consider the Deep Roads a grind as I actually enjoyed it, and Orzammar a lot, the Deep Roads represented the sprawling tunnel system built by the dwarves very well and gave the feeling that the Warden's were taking a risk by entering deep into enemy territory. Liked the city built for the Legion of the Dead in particular, it added some real gravity to Dwaven architecture as you crossed the bridge.

Now the Fade, well thats a different kettle of fish, I think the first couple of playthroughs its fine, but after that it started to irk me somewhat, but its a small part of the game, so I didn't feel it overly impacted too badly on the DA O overall.

DA 2 on the otherhand has managed to consistently drive me up one wall and down the other with its quests and combat. The combat in particular has really frustrated me and seems to be a deliberate exercise in tedium, whilst there is little in the way of an overarching purpose to many of the quests, whilst I feel the plot in general is rather disjointed.

[Kajan451]

Honestly.. i liked the fade, the first 3 playthroughs. Then i installed the Mod to get rid of it. Actually i would have loved to get rid of most of the combat and endless tunnels on my 4th playthrough, as i was only interrested in the story at this point.


In DA2.. well the game feels overall rushed, so i can't say i am missing this parts more than i miss a more complete game overall. When i bought DA2 i expected the same number of enemies in twice as long gameplay, and at least the tripple amount of areas to explore.


I enjoyed DA:Os Slothdemons fade, and i like the DA2 version of the Fade, when you are send for that elfen boy... much better than i did the DA:O one. Not because it was shorter, this didnt matter but because it seemed to impact my companions beyond it.


While waiting for the next patch for DA2, i am currently doing another playthrough of Origins and its actually funny.. i mean i went to the Tower as first stop, to get rid of the 2nd most annoying part of DA:O (in my opinion) first... (and i considered the whole Circle of Magi to be the 2nd most annoying part, running in circles up a tower was so boring - the fade at least did mix things up a little).. and i had Alistair with me.. and there i am going to meet Goldanna. But since i wouldn't have him with me for the first time of Redcliff he never ever mentions who Goldanna ist. Not until you finally cured the Arl.

In DA2, i could go to the people who would betray me in the Fade and talk with them about what happened there. I could console them. So that was definately a plus in the Take of DA2s Fade.

I have to admit, looking back, the whole Slothdemon thing is only interesting for the Companions Nightmares (and the statboosts), there was no reason they needed to send us through 7 levels, some of which were actually rather tedious.

I didn't need to grind through all that Fade stuff again, having the mindgames and such in the DA2 fade thing, was fun enough.

The deeproads on the other hand... those i miss. I would have prefered to have an Deeproads map and going through a couple deeproad instances. Maybe finding stuff there. Maybe a smaller taig to plunder before we get to the endgame.

And i would have loved to see these influenced by the decisions made in DA:O. I mean... if i did help Branka and the Dwarven had Golems again,... i would have loved to meet Dwaven Fighting next to Golems against the Darkspawn to reclaim more. I would have loved to pass one of these zones as they try to reclaim it.

I would have loved to see my decision regarding the Architect being reflected by the amount of Darkspawn in the tunnels.

Effects, as i could imagine it would be:

- Bring back the Legion of the Dead records results in Legion of the Dead Spawning at Random in the Deeproads to combat Darkspawn.

- Helping Branka results in Dwarven with Golem Aid spawning near the entrance when Hawk enters the Map for the first time. They do make their way towards certain waypoints and secure them. Also Darkspawn only respawn from the exits not everywhere.

- You didn't killed the Architect - Darkspawn no longer respawn. Darkspawn have no reinforcement waves.


There could have been 3 Stages... the entrance stage.. they could have easily taken the one from Awakenings. (I get back to that)... showing how Hawke and his team fights their way into the roads. Maybe encountering some badly hurt Warden group (possible sidequest offer, to find one of their own) which is surrounded by Darkspawn.

Next could be some sort of crossroads... there would be some fierce fighting going on with the Dwarven vs Darkspawn. Depending on who was King in your DA:O would influence how many Dwarven fight there. Then going on to some small thaig.. presenting loot and such. Maybe a miniboss like the giant Spider there. Here i would put encounters with the Legion, should they have been made into a house, as vanguards. Possibly fighting the giant spider or telling Hawke they are blocked off because of it. Hawke offering to take down the beast.

Then on to the level we have now in DA2.


And i don't care about Maps being reused in the Deeproads. Quite frankly... i expect the Deeproads to look the same. They are basically all from the same culture and its a tunnel. They surely do not look that unique. Which is why i wouldn't have mind seeing the entrance to the deeproads from Awakenings again. I expect those to look more or less the same as well. Caveins into the roadsystem.


So yeah, while i am perfectly fine with the DA2 Fade, i would have liked the whole Deeproads deal to have been more extensive. (And the Shop a bit better stocked - Seriously..that was one of my biggest beefs. Having no enough Ressources to buy healthpotions)
 

[Killer3000ad]

I never found the Deep Roads a grind in DA:O. And even if it was, I still prefer Deep Roads over endless waves of baddies jumping down from rooftops or appearing out of thin air.

[MonkeyLungs]

Alistairlover94 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Hell NO!!!

One of the reasons why 80% of my DAO characters go into limbo before/after Ostagar are those ridiculously long and tedious padding dungeons. The Deep Roads being the main offender ("Skip the Fade" eliminated another major contender). I also loathed Andraste's bloody temple.

You hated The Sacred Ashes quest

B-but...Epic High Dragon fight...Spirit that reveals insight into the companions emotions and regrets

This is why video games are going to start to suck more and more.

[gotthammer]

I actually didn't mind the Fade in DA:O (I just finished it again less than a week ago). I wish it were closer to the description in Gaider's book, tho', but I guess the circumstances were different. In some parts of the Fade, it does actually look quite good (I liked the bit where you can see the pillars holding up a ceiling, and above that, the Fade sky).

The Deep Roads in DA:O was ok, but, like most of DA2, felt like a wasted opportunity for me.
Read the description of the Deep Roads in Gaider's books: they're dark, at times pitch black.
What did we get in the times the Deep Roads were shown in both DA:O and DA2: it was bright/well-lit.
That, IMHO, ruined the atmosphere of what should have been one of the most oppressive places in the setting. Look at how The Witcher handled the crypts, caves and sewer: it was pitch black at times...and carrying a light source made it look great (the night vision potion was 'meh' compared to carrying a torch or firing 'Igni' in the darkness).
The long slog through the Deep Roads could've been better (it was 'ok', for me) if it had better lighting/atmosphere (imagine the Deep Roads, the same environment, but w/ much less lighting...then imagine the only light sources coming from your party: maybe the Warden is automatically given a torch, and, of course, light from the staff of any mage in the party)

Did I miss the 'length' of the Deep Roads in DA2? Yes. The Deep Roads portion in DA2 felt 'tacked on'.

Modifié par gotthammer, 09 avril 2011 - 05:41 .

[Louis deGuerre]

I did not have a problem with the Fade and the Deep Roads, I really enjoyed them.
The deep roads in DA2 is so hilariously short deep walk in the park might be more appropriate.
I really liked where the fade thing in DA2 was going, too bad that only lasted 5 minutes as well...

[Drogo45]

DA was like flippin' your mother over so she wouldn't get sores. Needed, but boring as hell.

[TJSolo]

Drogo45 wrote...

DA was like flippin' your mother over so she wouldn't get sores. Needed, but boring as hell.

That is a rather harsh thing to say about the Dragon Age franchise.

[HTTP 404]

no, not really. I just miss the stories. I dont miss the under level 10 battles.

[YohkoOhno]

I think the game has improved since quests are either smaller or come in chunks. It seems time passes by a little faster and you can finish a quest in 1-2 hours as opposed to 10-15. Granted, this doesn't count the extra side-quests as part of those areas, but I like the new structure. This means you aren't bored if there's a particular type of quest you hate. I notice they break up the larger connected quests into smaller parts.

Also, practically speaking, I think they've set things up like this to enhance the DLC. It's easier to add new quests if the main quests are smaller. Making quests smaller in general makes it easier to either insert new DLC into the main plot (like Sebastian) from a game design perspective, and makes people see it as more complete.

The big downside is that few quests feel as epic. But I'm sure the writing and organization of it will improve in DA3.

[gotthammer]

YohkoOhno wrote...
The big downside is that few quests feel as epic. But I'm sure the writing and organization of it will improve in DA3.

I'd rather they improve it NOW.
I really wish BioWare would release a Free Enhanced Edition to 'fix' their core game BEFORE any more DLCs.

[Skokes]

I vastly preferred the Fade section of DAII to that of DA:O. The former looked great and felt like it began to live up to the potential of the setting, allowing for deeper interaction with the companions. There's also an interesting aspect of play in how one approaches the sleeper's demon's, where you're told you need to ease him out of his delusions (not that I'm sure it matters; I've not tried just jumping up and down and yelling "It's a demon!" It would be disappointing (though not terribly surprising) if it had no effect).

DA:O's Fade is interesting, I guess, as a reflection of the fractured psyche of the mages and Templars fighting over the Circle tower, though I'm not really sure the gameplay elements really uphold that. My first experience with the Fade in DA:O involved a lot of (mostly good) frustration and a lot of (mostly bad) backtracking. But coming back to it in later playthroughs, I found it largely boring. It was also notable for separating the Warden from his companions, who are the strongest aspect of the game.

I'd be interested in seeing a comparison of number of enemies in the Deep Roads of DA:O to those in the Deep Roads of DAII. DAII has plenty of enemy-slaying, it's just all stacked on top of itself (which is arguably a metaphor for much of DAII). DAII's Deep Roads looked great, but they were incredibly linear. I'm not sure the player's ever offered a choice as to where they want to go next. This, I think, is the real enemy to the sense of exploration.

For disclosure's sake, I think my perfect Deep Roads design would be a large, mostly empty dungeon with side routes and rooms that lead to interesting set-piece combats (such as the ballista crossroads in DA:O or the explosives fight in the Act III Deep Roads quest in DAII). I wouldn't even mind waves in those situations, because they'd feel in-character for the setting and be used less often.

Which is all to say, I guess, that I'd like combats that are defined, from a tactics and challenge perspective, by the location they take place in and what exists in those spaces.

Modifié par Skokes, 09 avril 2011 - 06:15 .

[Astranagant]

The problem with the fade wasn't its length, it was that it was tedious and artificially inflated with a convoluted key/lock path full of backtracking, repetetive environments and too much unrewarding combat rather than having any kind of substantial design effort put into it.

Modifié par Astranagant, 09 avril 2011 - 06:21 .

[YohkoOhno]

gotthammer wrote...
I'd rather they improve it NOW.
I really wish BioWare would release a Free Enhanced Edition to 'fix' their core game BEFORE any more DLCs.

Doubtful, the DLCs are planned and the fan base is mixed, BW doesn't have anything to prove (unlike CDProjeckt which was releasing a new game, nor like Elemental: War of Magic which was filled with bugs).  Despite some disappointment, it's not a universal case.  People like myself enjoyed the game very much.

[AkiKishi]

Astranagant wrote...

The problem with the fade wasn't its length, it was that it was tedious and artificially inflated with a convoluted key/lock path full of backtracking, repetetive environments and too much unrewarding combat rather than having any kind of substantial design effort put into it.

Well the fade is essentially a "puzzle" and those never really work that well when it comes to replayability.

There is no party, there is no real difference to what character you play because it's all the same in the fade. Deep Roads on the hand changes depending on your party and skills , or rather how you approach it changes.

[TJSolo]

Astranagant wrote...

The problem with the fade wasn't its length, it was that it was tedious and artificially inflated with a convoluted key/lock path full of backtracking, repetetive environments and too much unrewarding combat rather than having any kind of substantial design effort put into it.

You are talking about DA2's Fade right? 'Cause I am not finding repetitive environments an issue in DAO's Fade since well those environments are the same place because you are revisiting them. For example your bathroom is not repetitive because it does not change each time you enter.

Convoluted? Wasn't the enter purpose of the Fade in the Tower to imprison the player/Warden. Shouldn't the way to escape such a prison be more than killing a few nameless enemies until the key is found?

[Melca36]

The people who whined too much about it are the reasons the areas were overly simplified.

They should come up with a reasonable compromise that all of the fans can agree too.

[Melca36]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

I liked the Deep Roads in DAO and same with the Fade, I've come to notice the most defensive of DA2 are those who hated those places in DAO so I guess they were the ones who screamed loudest prior to DA2 about changes wanted. Now that they got what wanted they are against other fans who liked those aspects screaming loudest for it to come back. It's quite ironic really.

The developers should have NEVER pandered to the group. Its that simple.