21 réponses à ce sujet

[RavenB]

I don't really want to discuss if it should be forced or by who, I just want to discuss the most effective way for mages to be educated.

Doing the circle mage Origin, I couldn't help but feel the education my character recieved was quite lackluster. The biggest threat to mages is what? Demons, of course, and the fear they'll turn to blood magic. It seemed as though they talked little, if at all, about these things and focused on teaching students basic spells and such. I found the process of the harrowing to be extremely ineffective and it didn't seem as though it proved much at all.

The process; Do not inform the student what the harrowing will be. Toss them into the fade (I assume for the first time) with multiple demons and spirits. Expect them to solve the puzzle like situation you've put them in.

This seems like a ridiculous system to me. Not only does it put the mages at the disadvantage of great stress and little knowledge, it doesn't give them much by way of learning besides what they encounter. They could have gotten through the harrowing on dumb luck. They could fall to a demon of a type they didn't encounter, because they believe all demons are like what they've seen during the harrowing.

It seems like a much more effective method of teaching would be to give the mages full disclosure on the types of demons, the ways they can be encountered, how to deal with them when encountered, what abominations are like and that they will become one should they not resist. It would seem to me that an educated mage would be less likely to fall to the demons, not only in the harrowing, but also after.

What are your opinions? What do you think is most important to teach mages? Do you think the harrowing is an effective test?

[The Baconer]

I don't think it would be a stretch to assume mages receive education on demonology before the Harrowing. Unless we're talking about the Kirkwall Circle, of course, since I don't think the mages there are taught anything.

[Rifneno]

The Baconer wrote...

Unless we're talking about the Kirkwall Circle, of course, since I don't think the mages there are taught anything.

Not true.  They're taught what Ser Alrik likes.

...  Too tasteless huh?

Anyway, I think we as the players don't have enough information to make an informed judgment.  There's too much we don't know about demons, abominations, spirits, ect.  Why do some abominations instantly transform into that disfigured abomination model and others don't?  Under what circumstances can a demon possess a mage?  Some mages go abomination in life-threatening situations but we don't know why exactly.  Did they make a deal with the demon, or can a demon simply take them if their emotions are out of control?  We never saw it happen in DAO, so is it to do with Kirkwall's veil and emotional scared mages aren't demon fodder in other places?  What of that bit with Uldred forcing mages into abominations?  Was he using blood magic to control their minds and make them agree to let the demons in, or was it something else?  In DA2 demons always take over your allies' minds (Anders aside for obvious reasons) in the Fade.  In DAO, the mages in the Fade had no trouble at all saying no to the demon that possessed Connor.  Morrigan seemed not just to resist it but was almost insulted that the demon even tried.  We don't know how much of what we see is gameplay mechanics (plot armor) and how much is actual fact.  For instance, was Morrigan's steadfast refusal simply because the plot says so, or because Flemeth taught her well?

Just some examples, but it ran away with me.  Point is: we don't have enough information to make an accurate judgment.

[RavenB]

Wynne's commentary seems to imply that sometimes demon's can take mages without a deal if they make a "mistake", but the mechanics aren't really elaborated.

[Sheonite]

I don't see why mages can't be trained alongside templars in anti magic/anti-fade creatures combat...

Seeing as how the mages are the ones demons are inherently attracted to, wouldn't it benefit everyone to have them trained in anti-magic abilities?

Just thinkin... since most of the templar abilities can be considered "magic" anyways.

@ RavenB

The game is quite possibly populated by idiots, but that's just a convenient hand wave,

[Camenae]

Sheonite wrote...

I don't see why mages can't be trained alongside templars in anti magic/anti-fade creatures combat...

Seeing as how the mages are the ones demons are inherently attracted to, wouldn't it benefit everyone to have them trained in anti-magic abilities?

Just thinkin... since most of the templar abilities can be considered "magic" anyways.

,

I agree with this.  Actually, I think the most effective templar would be a mage templar, without the drawback of being addicted to lyrium.  This might also make the self-policing thing more viable.

[Greta13]

Rifneno wrote...

The Baconer wrote...

Unless we're talking about the Kirkwall Circle, of course, since I don't think the mages there are taught anything.

Not true.  They're taught what Ser Alrik likes.

...  Too tasteless huh?

Anyway, I think we as the players don't have enough information to make an informed judgment.  There's too much we don't know about demons, abominations, spirits, ect.  Why do some abominations instantly transform into that disfigured abomination model and others don't?  Under what circumstances can a demon possess a mage?  Some mages go abomination in life-threatening situations but we don't know why exactly.  Did they make a deal with the demon, or can a demon simply take them if their emotions are out of control?  We never saw it happen in DAO, so is it to do with Kirkwall's veil and emotional scared mages aren't demon fodder in other places?  What of that bit with Uldred forcing mages into abominations?  Was he using blood magic to control their minds and make them agree to let the demons in, or was it something else?  In DA2 demons always take over your allies' minds (Anders aside for obvious reasons) in the Fade.  In DAO, the mages in the Fade had no trouble at all saying no to the demon that possessed Connor.  Morrigan seemed not just to resist it but was almost insulted that the demon even tried.  We don't know how much of what we see is gameplay mechanics (plot armor) and how much is actual fact.  For instance, was Morrigan's steadfast refusal simply because the plot says so, or because Flemeth taught her well?

Just some examples, but it ran away with me.  Point is: we don't have enough information to make an accurate judgment.

I'm pretty sure that that Uldred tortured the mages until they agreed to let themselves become abominations, correct me if I'm wrong though. 

[Kitaen]

Greta13 wrote...
I'm pretty sure that that Uldred tortured the mages until they agreed to let themselves become abominations, correct me if I'm wrong though. 

You are correct, he did, it was even seen when the Warden entered.

[Torax]

Also keep in mind it's hard to portray 15+ years of training in an rpg starting area for a class that begins as lvl 1. You do see things like a Mage teaching an Apprentice to control fire. You see mage teaching spells and shielding to another apprentice. As well as the Mage teaching the 3 children and asking them how they interpret "Magic is meant to serve man..." These are evidence of children learning from other Mages to use their abilities. Considering how many arrive at about the age of 6 it apears. That is a long time before they would be at the Harrowing/Tranquil stage of their lives. Should also point out that the PC is the most promising pupil of the First Enchanter Irving in the bunch.

[Andronic0s]

I liked the Harrowing in DAO and it is impossible to tell what the PC was thought as you start the game at the Harrowing already the other NPCs seem to be in an early stage of training given their general lack of ability.

Then we got to DA2 and it shows that regardless of being able to outwit a demon a mage can still get possesed if scared, so maybe they should make templar surprise parties, and see if the mage turns into an abomination

[ThomasBlaine]

Irving and Jowan's statements seem to imply that the Harrowing is a test of will and wits. They need to see whether you can handle your own power under incredible stress, and continuously resist the temptation of demonic corruption, even when completely at it's mercy. More of a pass-and-live situation than an actual learning experience, which is the entire point.

It's my impression that the mages are taught only a few, selected basic spells during the apprentice years, aside from theoretical training and the mundane education, and that it's only when they've proven that they can handle it and resist a demon that they get to play with the good stuff.

I imagine that fear of demons is beaten into their heads from day 1 by both templars and older mages, and that blood magic is simply taboo. Jowan seemingly learned it from books alone, which implies that it counts as 'Forbidden Arts' more than corruption.

The only reason the Harrowing is so 'easy' for the PC is that s/he is exceptionally powerful. And that the game doesn't allow for you to be possessed...

Modifié par ThomasBlaine, 09 avril 2011 - 08:41 .

[PPR223]

Sheonite wrote...

I don't see why mages can't be trained alongside templars in anti magic/anti-fade creatures combat...

Seeing as how the mages are the ones demons are inherently attracted to, wouldn't it benefit everyone to have them trained in anti-magic abilities?

Just thinkin... since most of the templar abilities can be considered "magic" anyways.

@ RavenB

The game is quite possibly populated by idiots, but that's just a convenient hand wave,

Too bad you have to be a warrior to be a Templar....

[Rifneno]

PPR223 wrote...

Sheonite wrote...

I don't see why mages can't be trained alongside templars in anti magic/anti-fade creatures combat...

Seeing as how the mages are the ones demons are inherently attracted to, wouldn't it benefit everyone to have them trained in anti-magic abilities?

Just thinkin... since most of the templar abilities can be considered "magic" anyways.

@ RavenB

The game is quite possibly populated by idiots, but that's just a convenient hand wave,

Too bad you have to be a warrior to be a Templar....

And only a rogue can shoot a bow.  Gameplay restrictions aren't always realistic.

[The Angry One]

We should have some insight on how Tevinter handles Templars, if they still have them at all.
I mean, if they don't use mage Templars then it probably can't be done as I see no reason why they wouldn't want to.
Magic resistance would give you an edge over your fellow Magisters if nothing else.

[RavenB]

@What mages are taught;

It seemed from the commentary between the mage-warden and others during the origin that they knew fairly little about demons and the fade. It was also stressed heavily that it shouldn't be told to others what was encountered during the Harrowing. I saw them learning other spells, but nothing related to demons or the fade.

I'm aware that their idea was for it to be a surprise, but I have doubts this is the most effective path. Personally, I think teaching all mages as much as possible about demons, the fade, and how to handle themselves with both would be much more effective than basing their ability on the outcome of one encounter. In my opinion, it should be a learning experience. It should be the final test out of a long educational process. I don't really believe one success proves as much as having a thorough education would, to begin with.

@Templars;

What about templar hunters? I think mages could pretty easily be templars. It's only a party restriction thus far. And even if Alistair said he could only teach warriors, maybe that's because his education only centered around learning as a warrior. It doesn't mean it's impossible in general.

[The Angry One]

I'm placing Templar Hunters in the gameplay fail category until a dev directly says otherwise.

[hanoobken]

Sheonite wrote...

I don't see why mages can't be trained alongside templars in anti magic/anti-fade creatures combat...

Seeing as how the mages are the ones demons are inherently attracted to, wouldn't it benefit everyone to have them trained in anti-magic abilities?

Just thinkin... since most of the templar abilities can be considered "magic" anyways.

@ RavenB

The game is quite possibly populated by idiots, but that's just a convenient hand wave,

As they do it in Heroes... One of them - One of us  should do wonders if they both watch out for each other instead of fighting.

[Mnemnosyne]

I did get the impression that I didn't know as much about the Fade as I should have when Origins started. So I agree, perhaps the education pre-harrowing is incomplete.

The harrowing itself I see as somewhat reasonable - I think there could be far better options, but I'm not sure what they are. Something of that nature, a test, is important to at least try to make sure that mages don't transform into abominations during any moment of extreme duress, like the mages in Kirkwall seem prone to doing.

Ser Thrask's daughter, for instance, did not even try to use magic to defend herself before she became an abomination. People in general do not handle highly threatening and stressful situations well, unless they have been thoroughly trained for it. An average person usually freezes up or panics during a combat situation, for instance. A good portion of Army training is specifically designed to toughen up an individual's reactions under extreme stress, so they can continue to think rationally during combat. This is the sort of thing that seems absolutely necessary for mages to learn.

[sphinxess]

Koyasha wrote...

I did get the impression that I didn't know as much about the Fade as I should have when Origins started. So I agree, perhaps the education pre-harrowing is incomplete.

The harrowing itself I see as somewhat reasonable - I think there could be far better options, but I'm not sure what they are. Something of that nature, a test, is important to at least try to make sure that mages don't transform into abominations during any moment of extreme duress, like the mages in Kirkwall seem prone to doing.

Ser Thrask's daughter, for instance, did not even try to use magic to defend herself before she became an abomination. People in general do not handle highly threatening and stressful situations well, unless they have been thoroughly trained for it. An average person usually freezes up or panics during a combat situation, for instance. A good portion of Army training is specifically designed to toughen up an individual's reactions under extreme stress, so they can continue to think rationally during combat. This is the sort of thing that seems absolutely necessary for mages to learn.

Its the last thing the Chantry wants however and they call the shots

[Gavinthelocust]

Andronic0s wrote...

I liked the Harrowing in DAO and it is impossible to tell what the PC was thought as you start the game at the Harrowing already the other NPCs seem to be in an early stage of training given their general lack of ability.

Then we got to DA2 and it shows that regardless of being able to outwit a demon a mage can still get possesed if scared, so maybe they should make templar surprise parties, and see if the mage turns into an abomination

The mental image is glorious!

[ThePasserby]

The most important lesson the mages need is anger and stress management. Just ask Orsino and the female mage that turned into an abomination when cornered by Templars in the Act 3 finale.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

The Angry One wrote...

We should have some insight on how Tevinter handles Templars, if they still have them at all.
I mean, if they don't use mage Templars then it probably can't be done as I see no reason why they wouldn't want to.
Magic resistance would give you an edge over your fellow Magisters if nothing else.

Fenris (and Gaider) have said Tevinter does have Templars as well as soldiers to keep magical law. They do not have a huge number of Templars, and these answer to the mages rather than the Chantry, IIRC.