68 réponses à ce sujet

[Oneiropolos]

 One thing I've noticed playing through is how party banter and the game plot actually entirely foreshadows what Anders is going to do and what the consequences of it will be, as well as the general state of the game in Act III and beyond. For those who AREN'T as familiar with literary foreshadowing, it's defined by the Encyclopedia Brittanica as " the organization and presentation of events and scenes in a work of fiction or drama so that the reader or observer is prepared to some degree for what occurs later in the work. " DAII is littered with it. 

Fenris actually has the most quotes throughout the game that blatantly go, "Look. I'm telling you right now. I'll side with you and I'll trust you, but if you think there's not reprecussions to blood magic and that most mages won't turn to blood magic to save themselves, you're wrong." In his own personal quest, A Bitter Pill, he almost mockingly shows Hawke the blood sacrifice, claiming it to be the legacy of the magisters. He says something along the lines of, "Mages will always find a way to justify their need for power". He refers to Merrill's naiveness in claiming that the demon couldn't help being born what it was when he says, "Ah yes, let's ignore the tiger. It can't help being what it is!" To Fenris, playing with blood magic is the same as playing with a wild animal that can consume you, and he warns others to be wary. He views choosing to rely on it as the indication of a weak mage, and a weak mage is a dangerous mage. (Weak in this case being weak-willed). Of course, Anders doesn't have the issue of dealing in blood magic, but he IS a radical and naive in his own way about how mages will react, as Act III shows. There's blood mages -all over- because it seems to be the easy way out to get more power. Anders even has a party banter with Merril where he desperately tries to get her to say she didn't make a deal with a demon and that her discovery of blood magic had to be an ancident. Anders doesn't want to believe his fellow mages would willingly turn to blood magic. But I digress, the point is, throughout the game, Fenris has his finger on the pulse of what's 'going to happen'. Two examples are the party banters below-

───────
Anders: By now, you must see what an injustice the templars are.
Fenris: Must I? I see templars trying to control what they have good reason to fear.
Anders: But they go too far.
Fenris: Talk to Hawke about her mother. Ask her who went "too far."
Anders: You can't hold all mages responsible for that!
Fenris: It doesn't take all mages to cause this. Only the weak ones.
───────
Anders: Not all mages are weak.
Fenris: True.
Fenris: Bethany, for instance, was not weak.
Anders: You specifically don't mention me.
Fenris: That's also true.
Anders: I'll prove to you that I'm not weak
Fenris: Prove it to yourself. You're convincing no one else.
───────

But Fenris isn't the only one able to state the blatant truth of the situation. Isabela also predicts almost precisely what will happen to Anders.

───────
Anders: There is justice in the world.
Isabela: Is there? You want to free the mages. Let's say you do, but to get there, you kill a bunch of innocent people.
Isabela: What about them? Don't they then deserve justice?
Anders: Yes.
Isabela: And then what? Where does it end?
Isabela: It's like a bar brawl. People are continuously pulled into the fray, and nobody remembers why it started.
Isabela: Justice is an idea. It makes sense in a world of ideas, but not in our world.
───────

Even Sebastian isn't left out of the foreshadowing when the below banter occurs.

───────
Sebastian: So your "Tranquil Solution" was hardly the holocaust you imagined.
Anders: You've been seeking revenge for the death of one family for as long as I've known you.
Anders: Are you honestly judging me for trying to save the lives of every mage in Thedas?
Sebastian: But they were never threatened. It was a single man's lunacy.
Sebastian: The Chantry would never follow through with such a thing.
Anders: Yet.
───────

As I said in a different thread, as much as people might hate Sebastian (I don't personally, I just know people do),  Sebastian's comment  "But they (every mage in Thedas) were never threatened. It was a single man's lunacy." seems to foreshadow how a single man, Anders, will cause every mage in Thedas to be threatened. 

Another foreshadowing that took me a while to realize were the actions of Sister Petrice. She blatantly removes the chance of compromise of war with the Qunari by murdering Seamus in the SAME SPOT as the Grand Cleric will be when the Chantry explodes. We hate her, we despise her, but the truth of the matter is Sister Petrice is the first warning in the story of radical belief leading to the deaths of others. She IS the Anders of Act I and II. We just never had her as a companion or a romance interest so she doesn't get excuses for what she does. She believes she's protecting the interests of her people... keeping them safe even... in what she does. She believes they must be incited into action against the Qunari..She too wants to remove all compromise. And she too causes the deaths of innocents in the end but gets the war she wanted, even if she's not alive to see it. 
 
There has to be other foreshadowing in the story I didn't catch, and I'm really curious to see what people bring up. I mean, obviously, Anders himself basically gives away his plot in his last quest so I'm not talking about that. Though earlier in the story, he DOES say some things that are vague (I believe he says something like, "The day will come when all people in Kirkwall will have to take a side." in a somewhat early discussion.) Where else did the writers basically show tiny red flags that many missed their first time around? For the record, this is NOT a discussion for bashing Anders or his actions, nor for cheering Anders on in his actions. I'm just immensely curious and would like a discussion on other foreshadowing I missed.

And yes, the post is long, so bravo if you made it this far. :happy:

Edit: Caught a mistake in one of the quotes that was driving me crazy so fixed it. 

Modifié par Oneiropolos, 09 avril 2011 - 08:33 .

[The Angry One]

Semi-foreshadowing in that it happens after it becomes apparent that Justice is out of control, but Merril's line "All spirits are dangerous, Anders. I understood that. I'm sorry you didn't." also applies here.

[Rifneno]

Isabela's is the only really foreshadowing one.  Fenris was just the usual Fenris-Anders back and forth trolling.  Sebastian is pretty much the opposite of right.  It was one woman's lunacy, Meredith.

[Oneiropolos]

Rifneno wrote...

Isabela's is the only really foreshadowing one.  Fenris was just the usual Fenris-Anders back and forth trolling.  Sebastian is pretty much the opposite of right.  It was one woman's lunacy, Meredith.

Ander's lunacy, or at least his losing his ability to fight Justice/Vengeance,  is what allowed and provoked Meredith's actions. Or you could even argue that the idol helped Meredith's lunacy along, and it DID make Bartrand lose his mind, so his lunacy was a part of it. Meredith would have never gotten the power to wield the Right of Anullment if Anders hadn't removed compromise. His action was the catalyst. It can't be ignored as being such, particularly when it comes to foreshadowing. You can dislike Fenris or Sebastian but it doesn't make certain comments less of a literary device.  Foreshadowing doesn't mean a character is PROPHETIC. They, themselves, don't realize they're indicating what will happen. Foreshadowing is used by the writers, and Fenris and Sebastian's comments stand as such. 

[RubiconI7]

Again, evidence of the story being about extremes and how people trying to strike a compromise are obliterated like Dumar and Elthina.

The extremists in the game all have an ideal that they can justify their actions with. In this regard, Anders justify it that he is following his belief of Justice while the Arishok is following his belief of the Qun.

It would be naive to say that either of these characters are "bad" or "morally wrong". Disagreements occur at how people take issue with the way they express their belief.

Fenris and Isabella do have their hands on the money throughout though as they seem to have a pretty good grasp of human nature. Fenris, through his biased views, is actually pretty objective in his underlining meaning.

Ander's disbelief and horror of how other mages can turn to blood magic is caused by the fact that this would only provide more ammunition for templars. He also knows that blood magic is dangerous but seems to ignore the legitimate argument Fenris makes on how mages have the tendency to turn to blood magic. Albeit a small amount, Fenris thinks it is unacceptable but Anders does not seem to address the dangers of completely "free" mages.

I especially love

Anders: There is justice in the world.
Isabela: Is there? You want to free the mages. Let's say you do, but to get there, you kill a bunch of innocent people.
Isabela: What about them? Don't they then deserve justice?
Anders: Yes.
Isabela: And then what? Where does it end?
Isabela: It's like a bar brawl. People are continuously pulled into the fray, and nobody remembers why it started.
Isabela: Justice is an idea. It makes sense in a world of ideas, but not in our world.

Modifié par RubiconI7, 09 avril 2011 - 05:17 .

[The Angry One]

Fenris has no doubt seen dozens of mages go "It's cool! I got this!" then do something horrible.
And they all probably talked just like Anders.

[KnightofPhoenix]

There is a lot of foreshadowing in Awakening as well.

His disdainful retort to Leliana when she said magic is dangerous was "Only to you". Again foreshadowing the dichotomy he is imposing on the world: mages vs everyone else. Despite the fact that the people are sympathizing with mages. But like any paranoid man, he sees only enemies.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 09 avril 2011 - 05:16 .

[The Angry One]

Another thing is, in all the conversations he has regarding Tevinter, the only problem he ever expresses with them is their use of blood magic.
He never says anything else on how they conduct themselves as mages and oppress mundanes. Sometimes he seems a little fascinated with them, using the twisted morality of "if it's not blood magic then it's okay"

[Obadiah]

My foreshadowing was from Youtube, and THANK HEAVENS!

If I hadn't known Anders would do what he did, I would have been completely unprepared for healing in the follow-up quests.

Anders was a person who would not accept the reality of what he was, and in so doing basically became what it is everyone feared most about mages.

Modifié par Obadiah, 09 avril 2011 - 05:32 .

[Nashiktal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

There is a lot of foreshadowing in Awakening as well.

His disdainful retort to Leliana when she said magic is dangerous was "Only to you". Again foreshadowing the dichotomy he is imposing on the world: mages vs everyone else. Despite the fact that the people are sympathizing with mages. But like any paranoid man, he sees only enemies.

You're avatar makes you comment much more meaningful, and slightly ironic.

[stobie]

I loved that Isabelle conversation. She may be riddled with itchy-diseases, but she's still wonderful.
Anders lost me with his refusal to condemn Tevinter and slavery, while saying mages are slaves. (I think they have it a lot better than that little slave woman's papa...)

I didn't think he was very consistent about blood mages. He seems to give them excuses for it, 'they were pushed into it,' and sometimes hate them for it, and sometimes, expect you to kill a nice guy to protect them. (Grace was screamingly evil, for instance - I'd have her and Petrice locked in a rat-filled cell, personally) Blood magic itself is questionably evil - if you're using your own life force, I see it as your business. (Merrill) If you're sacrificing party members (blood mage Hawke) - you're bad.

[Oneiropolos]

In fairness, Fenris's life was as a slave to a magister. I'm not sure he ever -saw- much of non-mages except in elves as slavery. Even he was made a tool to enhance his master's power. He can discuss the templars in Tevinter, and he can discuss the power mages wield, but he might not have seen or been around any other 'normal' people for any length of time in Tevinter. I mean, it'd be like if you asked me how life was in my city. I could tell you about the education system, and different doctors in town as my dad was a surgeon. I spent most of my childhood getting hauled around by my dad on my 'weekends with him' on errands to different hospitals and doctor's offices. But I probably would not even THINK to mention crime rates or even the poverty rates. I could look them up now, but because I've been fortunate enough not to have to worry about either, I could only make guesses on both without looking into things myself. Fenris didn't REALLY have a chance to look into things. And he was the lowest rung in their society. I don't think he's fascinated with blood magic and mages, I just think they were mostly the only thing he remembers since he lost his memories when he got the lyrium tattoos. He claims this was due to the pain, but consideirng Danarius erases his memory if you give Fenris back to Danarius (I would never do it, but I've read up on the letter you get from Danarius).. I suspect Danarius himself did it to keep Fenris docile after Fenris achieved freedom for his sister and mother.

But...that was a major sidetrack of the topic and I apologize. ><

[stobie]

That's a good point! It's up to your Hawke & companions to expand Fenris's viewpoint. (hmmm....) He makes a point of mentioning 'strong mages,' including you if you're a mage, and Bethany. What I like about him is that he grows a bit. Anders descends, which is a nice twist, really. They give you a pretty up-front, lovable guy, and make you think twice at the end. With Fenris, they give you a grumpy, brittle guy and by the end, I adored him. (this being subjective, I know)

I read that letter, too - ugh! It made me feel actually ill. Toooo dark, game! Too dark!


eta:  The first time you meet Anders, he's healing someone, & seems vulnerable. When you meet Fenris, it's pointy fist through the heart. (which never seems to leave a hole...)  I really like the way they set that up, actually.  With Isabella and Merrill, it's less stark, but still, the cute sweet one is more dangerous than the pirate lady.  My only complaint with Merrill is that I don't think the game was even remotely clear about what she hopes or expects to happen with the mirror, especially after Witch Hunt.

Modifié par stobie, 09 avril 2011 - 05:46 .

[The Angry One]

Fenris may be new to society at large, but he knows mages.
While he's biased his point about weak mages rings true, they wreak havoc and always think they're doing great.

stobie wrote...

I read that letter, too - ugh! It made me feel actually ill. Toooo dark, game! Too dark!

How could anyone do that. They're all going to a special hell where 1000 Fenrises will brood at them for eternity. That'll show 'em.

[stobie]

Yup! I remind myself it's just a game, yada yada, but I *feel* it nonetheless.

I do wonder a bit why they didn't give you a better option with Anders at the end. If you, perhaps rightly, feel he's too dangerous to live, wouldn't you look him in the eye and say so? Back-stabbing is just - no. (also, when you first meet him, why can't I say something that isn't totally jerky to his come on? That's very flattering, but I'm not looking for a relationship just now... Oh... hello, adorable elf man!)

[The Angry One]

Didn't like the back stabbing myself, or Hawke's silence as Anders rambles on and on about martyrdom.
It works on some levels but eh. What really irks me is Sebastian leaving anyway if you just tell Anders to get lost. Really? It's either I'm an executioner or you storm off? Kill him yourself if you want it that badly, you lout.

Another thought on Fenris - Anders. That conversation that Fenris begins with "You should've been born in Tevinter." I think is more than just sarcasm. I think Fenris sees Anders has all the markings of a Tevinter mage, of someone who cares only about mages and their agenda, and to hell with everyone else.
Which is exactly what happens.

[stobie]

I thought that, too. (Anders being pro-Tevinter) I had a hard time giving him that Tevniter amulet-gift, for that reason. Anders is easy to like at first, but I kept noticing I'd get my rogue, who I planned as Anders-girl, to a certain point, then drop her, though the rogue was my favorite class. I finally switched her to Fenris, and she's happy.

Sebastian was generally irksome, agreed. I tried to like him, but I can't get past the dramatic cause, great voice vs "What I really did is post a chantry note for some merc to kill my family's hired killers and now I'll just sit here in the chantry waiting." Also, when he prays for the souls of his defeated spiders, undead, etc, I want to hit him. When he finally threatens me at the end, I want to issue sarcastic phrases as to his ability to do anything but hire mercenaries to come after me, while he stays behind protecting his station as 'last of the line he doesn't intend to continue.'

[hoorayforicecream]

Fenris is a big ball of doom prophecy. Who could forget such great hits as:

"Believe what you like. In my experience, mages always find a way to justify their need for power. "
"You can't even begin to imagine the number of mages that have walked down the path you're now on."

He says these to Merrill, but they could easily be applied to Anders.

[Deified Data]

Good work on the Anders/Petrice comparison. Their methods and motivations are near-identical, yet we don't have any petrice supporters, not that I've seen. Why is that?

[Bratinov]

Never noticed that.
I only cough on after he asked to distract the Grand Cleric, I was like
"Did he just plant a bomb or some sort of trap?"

[stobie]

Petrice's voice would keep me from siding with her if she agreed with me on every count. (which is why I think charm is actually part of Anders's arsenal - she's not charming.) You actually CAN side with Petrice, I think - I can't imagine it, but you can.

I guess she's motivated by religious zealotry. He's motivated more by the injustices he's seen against people who he considers like himself. So I wouldn't say they are the same. I don't get that she cares about 'her people' at all - she's just motivated by religion. She also doesn't immerse herself in danger much - she has minions to do that, whereas Anders takes on his quest alone, ultimately.

Either way, it's an interesting comparison, though I'd tend to take from it that my Hawke is drowning in a sea of extremists.

[stobie]

Bratinov wrote...

Never noticed that.
I only cough on after he asked to distract the Grand Cleric, I was like
"Did he just plant a bomb or some sort of trap?"

I would have thought he was stealing something or looking for evidence.  'Bomb' would never have crossed my mind. It would have made more sense if Anders was connected to the Qunari bomb-material, & that he's using that.

[The Angry One]

stobie wrote...

Petrice's voice would keep me from siding with her if she agreed with me on every count. (which is why I think charm is actually part of Anders's arsenal - she's not charming.) You actually CAN side with Petrice, I think - I can't imagine it, but you can.

You can but you can still yell at her all the way through.

[stobie]

Petrice was my 'worst villain' in this one. (hence, the best) I really loathed her. She's so slimy and slippery & smug. Grrr!!! I was disappointed when she gets killed, because I wanted to have her as a nemesis. (Orsino & Meredith didn't seem all that horrible in comparison - I knew where they'd gone wrong, but I didn't hate them with the fiery-fury of 10,000 suns) I wasn't wild about the Qunari once I realized they intended to force their religion, either - so I guess that's my 'too far' point. Anders forces us into war - that's the same idea. But she, with her spitty, little voice, was just the antithesis of all I hold dear!

[The Angry One]

Petrice is really just the product of her teachings, while she's an extremist, according to strict interpretation of Chantry law the Qunari shouldn't be tolerated at all.
She's hateful, but you get some interesting insights if you side with her and play the fellow fanatic. It's a far sight better than the crazy villians we end up with anyway.

Modifié par The Angry One, 09 avril 2011 - 07:27 .