68 réponses à ce sujet

[Camenae]

The Angry One wrote...

Petrice is really just the product of her teachings, while she's an extremist, according to strict interpretation of Chantry law the Qunari shouldn't be tolerated at all.
She's hateful, but you get some interesting insights if you side with her and play the fellow fanatic. It's a far sight better than the crazy villians we end up with anyway.

What does she say?  Is it like the extra things Meredith reveals if you openly side with her?

[The Angry One]

Camenae wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Petrice is really just the product of her teachings, while she's an extremist, according to strict interpretation of Chantry law the Qunari shouldn't be tolerated at all.
She's hateful, but you get some interesting insights if you side with her and play the fellow fanatic. It's a far sight better than the crazy villians we end up with anyway.

What does she say?  Is it like the extra things Meredith reveals if you openly side with her?

Nothing like that, no.
But she talks of how she truly believes there could never have been compromise with the Qunari, that others are being hypocrites for believing in the Chantry's teachings yet not accepting that Qunari are heathens who must be beaten back.

Basically it's more fanatacism, the interesting part is how Elthina expels her from the position of Mother for her actions and she swears to continue her efforts - she's not doing this for power precisely, she doesn't regret what she's done. She firmly believes in her cause and she'll see it through to the end.

Modifié par The Angry One, 09 avril 2011 - 07:39 .

[stobie]

Well, that fits, I guess. Extremists & zealots do seem pretty intent on destroying whatever world they're in.

[Rifneno]

The Angry One wrote...

Camenae wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Petrice is really just the product of her teachings, while she's an extremist, according to strict interpretation of Chantry law the Qunari shouldn't be tolerated at all.
She's hateful, but you get some interesting insights if you side with her and play the fellow fanatic. It's a far sight better than the crazy villians we end up with anyway.

What does she say?  Is it like the extra things Meredith reveals if you openly side with her?

Nothing like that, no.
But she talks of how she truly believes there could never have been compromise with the Qunari, that others are being hypocrites for believing in the Chantry's teachings yet not accepting that Qunari are heathens who must be beaten back.

Basically it's more fanatacism, the interesting part is how Elthina expels her from the position of Mother for her actions and she swears to continue her efforts - she's not doing this for power precisely, she doesn't regret what she's done. She firmly believes in her cause and she'll see it through to the end.

Is it just me, or does Bioware like to give us NPC's that are a giant three-course meal of crazy and then prove them right just for the lulz?  We all thought Loghain was bonkers, but lookie here at Orlais on the verge of invading again.  Petrice declares jihad on the qunari, who anxiously wait for the chance to prove her right by launching a suicidal attack on random civilians.  And it was indeed suicidal, even if not for Hawke they pretty much tell you that as soon as the city guard, templars, and mages rally their forces already within the city, the qunari will be overrun.  Meredith is obviously bananas about mages, but as soon as you're good and ready to slice her open, one mage blows up a chantry and another turns himself into an atrocity that gave the Warden more trouble than an archdemon.

I do love how things aren't black and white all the time with Bioware games, I do love how they make you think... but can we just have a few crazies that AREN'T right in the long run?  =/

[stobie]

Well, not just right, but sometimes, those crazies also make stuff happen. Loghain might be seen to have weakened Ferelden, thus encouraging Orlais to invade. Petrice seems directly, personally responsible for making the Qunari crack & attack in the first place. Meredith's cruelty toward mages send Anders over the edge, maybe Orsino into blood magic, or at least into using it - so she's not right, she's also culpable.

[Amagoi]

Rifneno wrote...
Is it just me, or does Bioware like to give us NPC's that are a giant three-course meal of crazy and then prove them right just for the lulz?  We all thought Loghain was bonkers, but lookie here at Orlais on the verge of invading again.  Petrice declares jihad on the qunari, who anxiously wait for the chance to prove her right by launching a suicidal attack on random civilians.  And it was indeed suicidal, even if not for Hawke they pretty much tell you that as soon as the city guard, templars, and mages rally their forces already within the city, the qunari will be overrun.  Meredith is obviously bananas about mages, but as soon as you're good and ready to slice her open, one mage blows up a chantry and another turns himself into an atrocity that gave the Warden more trouble than an archdemon.

I do love how things aren't black and white all the time with Bioware games, I do love how they make you think... but can we just have a few crazies that AREN'T right in the long run?  =/

It seems to me that it's not so much crazies that are right, but crazies that force the situation to justify themselves. Loghain doesn't fit so much as the others. Though I'm sure if Orlais really invade Ferelden, you can hear Warden Loghain screaming "I told you so!". It's also arguable that it was Petrice's actions that provoked the Arishok.

He was disgusted by the problems of Kirkwall and it's society, but if Petrice's zealotry hadn't added to it, it's possible he would have just left. No one was really in the right, though both parties believed they were. They really like those tragedies that could have been avoided, and the self-fulfilling prophecy situations. I'm not sure what you'd call it without a prophecy to self-fulfill though.. but it's similiar to what I mean.

Back on topic, I honestly didn't notice all the foreshadowing. I'm a bit ashamed of myself. But I've only played through once, so maybe that's a decent excuse. Really good job collecting those together OP.

[White_Buffalo94]

On a different note, does anyone think that Anders is truly dead? Honestly, I think that Anders/Vengeance are not truly dead if you happened to stab him in the back (no pun intended) at the end. Because I was just rereading the short story by Jen Hepler, and in it, Anders/Vengeance gets stabbed by his Templar keeper right before he leaves the Wardens. In the story, it is stated that he knows it cannot hurt him. Maybe that is why he so willingly allows himself to be "executed"

[The Angry One]

If you're against Petrice, she gets an arrow in the brain, thus ending that nuisance.
If you're with her, the Arishok KNOWS you're with her and can still respect you.
In the end Petrice is just a minor factor in this, the Arishok was going to boil over eventually, it's just a matter of when.

[Thrennion]

 During a conversation with Anders when he asks you to help make the potion, he says something like this about its effect (paraphrasing from memory): "Well, I mix the sela petrae and drakestone together in a solution, and then boom...Justice and I are separated."

[Wulfram]

The clearest bit of foreshadowing is the way Cassandra says "that warden, Anders", and Varric's response.

Petrice is pretty much right about the Qunari, really. Being tolerant of them is simply a weakness they will use against you.

[Bratinov]

stobie wrote...

Bratinov wrote...

Never noticed that.
I only cough on after he asked to distract the Grand Cleric, I was like
"Did he just plant a bomb or some sort of trap?"

I would have thought he was stealing something or looking for evidence.  'Bomb' would never have crossed my mind. It would have made more sense if Anders was connected to the Qunari bomb-material, & that he's using that.

He wouldn't be so secretive if it was simple stealing, plus this was the main sanctuary of his mortal enemies,
I was almost certain it was a bomb, trap or poison that would effect a future battle or come to bite me in the ass later on.
Still caught me off-guard.

[JnEricsonx]

The Angry One wrote...

Semi-foreshadowing in that it happens after it becomes apparent that Justice is out of control, but Merril's line "All spirits are dangerous, Anders. I understood that. I'm sorry you didn't." also applies here.

Yeah, I was actually FLOORED when I heard that line.  I mean, Merrill was naive in some ways, but in others, when it came to blood magic she was utterly on-point and careful, right down to asking Hawke to kill her if things went south in her personal quests. 

[hoorayforicecream]

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

On a different note, does anyone think that Anders is truly dead? Honestly, I think that Anders/Vengeance are not truly dead if you happened to stab him in the back (no pun intended) at the end. Because I was just rereading the short story by Jen Hepler, and in it, Anders/Vengeance gets stabbed by his Templar keeper right before he leaves the Wardens. In the story, it is stated that he knows it cannot hurt him. Maybe that is why he so willingly allows himself to be "executed"

David Gaider said that Anders is permanently, really dead if Hawke stabs him with the murder knife.

[MCPOWill]

Anders is such a brilliantly written tragic figure. Whether he romanced or not, killed or given a second chance, his dissent into madness truly is that of Shakespeare. Hell, I just recently played through Awakening, and there is a ton of foreshadowing towards both Anders and Justice that I think they had this all planned from the beginning (of course 5 years of dev time for DAO, I think it stands to reason they really had several stories that they planned to tell in this wonderfully crafted world). With party banter of Justice realizing the injustice that is shown towards mages and Anders LACK of care for his mage brethren makes me wonder how much of Anders even exists in DA2.

People like harp on Anders being poorly written but they never went back and compared Justice and Anders and their views in Awakening. Anders is just such a fascinating character. I dare say he is the Hamlet of Video Game characters.

[Darth Krytie]

Wulfram wrote...

The clearest bit of foreshadowing is the way Cassandra says "that warden, Anders", and Varric's response.

Petrice is pretty much right about the Qunari, really. Being tolerant of them is simply a weakness they will use against you.

Yes, when Varric says: don't remind me. I introduced them.

Because until that point, you could see Anders was troubled...but the tone of Varric's voice implied something far worse was gonna happen.

Also, this might go a little beyond foreshadowing...but I was really surprised the first time I heard this...at that point, I didn't know what was gonna happen in the end.

• Varric: So, the knight-commander... Boiling in oil? That one never gets old.
• Anders: This is past time for joking.
• Varric: I'm helping you indulge in elaborate revenge fantasies. I think it's good for you.
• Anders: Meredith will die. Do not doubt that.
• Varric: Go away, Justice. Can Anders come out and play?
• Anders: Stop.
• Varric: You are no fun anymore.

[Plaintiff]

Thrennion wrote...

 During a conversation with Anders when he asks you to help make the potion, he says something like this about its effect (paraphrasing from memory): "Well, I mix the sela petrae and drakestone together in a solution, and then boom...Justice and I are separated."

I stumbled across that line on my third playthrough and laughed out loud.

Oh Anders, you sly thing. If only you'd told me what was up. I hate chantries, we could've nuked two!

[ImoenBaby]

Reading Anders' Act 2 codex was worrisome, but the Act 3 one was dismaying. I knew he was going to end badly. Then his final quest presented itself, and I was all "yup, that shopping list is a truckload of fertilizer."

[ImoenBaby]

stobie wrote...

Petrice was my 'worst villain' in this one. (hence, the best) I really loathed her. She's so slimy and slippery & smug. Grrr!!! I was disappointed when she gets killed, because I wanted to have her as a nemesis. (Orsino & Meredith didn't seem all that horrible in comparison - I knew where they'd gone wrong, but I didn't hate them with the fiery-fury of 10,000 suns) I wasn't wild about the Qunari once I realized they intended to force their religion, either - so I guess that's my 'too far' point. Anders forces us into war - that's the same idea. But she, with her spitty, little voice, was just the antithesis of all I hold dear!

I didn't hate any of the antagonists. Don't get me wrong - none of them swayed me to their way of thinking - but in the end I didn't know them enough to feel much for them. The things they did were wrong, but they were more like strangers who needed to be stopped rather than hated enemies-to-the-death.  

[brightblueink]

Wulfram wrote...

The clearest bit of foreshadowing is the way Cassandra says "that warden, Anders", and Varric's response.

Oh gosh. While I was doing my first playthrough, I romanced Anders and accidentally spoiled myself on him blowing up the chantry. So when Varric said "don't remind me--I introduced them!" I sort of cringed and laughed. And then I did again when my character ended up running off with Anders in the end. It was even funnier since me and Varric were BFFs--I felt like he was lamenting that my Hawke ended up obsessed with her crazy boyfriend.

MCPOWill wrote...

Anders is such a brilliantly written
tragic figure. Whether he romanced or not, killed or given a second
chance, his dissent into madness truly is that of Shakespeare. Hell, I
just recently played through Awakening, and there is a ton of
foreshadowing towards both Anders and Justice that I think they had this
all planned from the beginning (of course 5 years of dev time for DAO, I
think it stands to reason they really had several stories that they
planned to tell in this wonderfully crafted world). With party banter of
Justice realizing the injustice that is shown towards mages and Anders
LACK of care for his mage brethren makes me wonder how much of Anders
even exists in DA2.

People like harp on Anders being poorly
written but they never went back and compared Justice and Anders and
their views in Awakening. Anders is just such a fascinating character. I
dare say he is the Hamlet of Video Game characters.

While I don't think I would say he's one of the best written characters EVER in Video Games, I definitely got a "classic Greek Tragedy" feel to him. Anders doesn't START from greatness, but by the end of the game he's a powerful mage and companion of the Champion--and if you romance him, he's even living in your mansion in Hightown. But his mistakes and flaws destroy the city he lives in and starts a war.

Actually, Hawke's story itself is even more like this. A refugee claws their way up from nothing to become a beloved hero and one of the most respected people in the town--and no matter what, your character will fall from grace, particularly if you take the mage's side. (It doesn't work as well on the Templar's side, though...)

..Oh, but Meredith is the most like that, isn't she? She starts in power, and her obsession destroys her town and kills her. Hmm.

Okay, now I'm rambling, sorry.

[vedlingtonii]

I noticed a lot of this and very much enjoyed it. I've played a lot of games/read a lot of books/seen a lot of movies where the foreshadowing is disgustingly blatant, but I think they did a good job in DA2. It was enough to keep me interested and involved in the story without telling me exactly what is going to happen. I didn't catch on to Petrice being Anders's foil until after all was said and done, but I liked it.

On my second playthrough, I picked up on a lot of a different kind of foreshadowing -- I don't know if it can even be called foreshadowing as much as blatant teasing. For instance, every single time any character uses the word "justice," you can read it as relating directly to THE Justice and his future wicked deeds. I can't find any specific examples right now, but it's a little literary trick that I liked.

And then the most awesome one of all:

After you successfully distract the Grand Cleric and Anders shows up to tell you it's time to go home, Elthina says to him (paraphrased): "I hope you were able to find a balm for your soul."

It made me lol.

[DebatableBubble]

http://dragonage.wik...Anders/Dialogue

Go down to his banter with Justice. Mind = blown.

[Oneiropolos]

Oh geeze, yeah, if you want to go into Awakening, consideirng David Gaider wrote Anders, Justice, AND Nathaniel in Awakening, I'm highly suspicious of him either looking back at his own dialogue and going "...we're so using that" or he was hinting at things WAY in advance. There's actually a whole banter between Justice and Nathaniel about how Nathaniel says... oh, nevermind. Let me just find it. It's better read.:

Nathaniel: What if you found a living body to possess?
Justice: Even if I knew how, I would not possess the living. Such is an act for demons.
Nathaniel: What if the person were willing?
Justice: Why would a mortal ever allow such a thing?
Nathaniel: For life. For love. Perhaps together, you can do what they cannot do alone. If you gave instead of taking, I would consider you no demon.
Justice: It is...something to consider. Thank you, Nathaniel.

In other words. DAMMIT NATHANIEL!

[The Angry One]

Oneiropolos wrote...

In other words. DAMMIT NATHANIEL!

I knew it! This has all been Arl Howe's diabolical plan to instigate chaos in Thedas!
Working with Loghain? Killing the Couslands? All a ploy to get the name of Howe disgraced, so Nathaniel will one day be forced to become a Grey Warden and work with Justice, giving him the idea to merge with Anders.

Damn you, Howe!

[Oneiropolos]

The Angry One wrote...

Oneiropolos wrote...

In other words. DAMMIT NATHANIEL!

I knew it! This has all been Arl Howe's diabolical plan to instigate chaos in Thedas!
Working with Loghain? Killing the Couslands? All a ploy to get the name of Howe disgraced, so Nathaniel will one day be forced to become a Grey Warden and work with Justice, giving him the idea to merge with Anders.

Damn you, Howe!

D: 

It all... makes so much sense... Howe is the ultimate villain. I bet poor Nathaniel didn't even know he was going to be used... Rendon Howe was just THAT GOOD. Watch. There's going to be a Howe in the next game and we're going to have to band together with like Flemeth to bring him down in order to save -everything-. 

edit: Of course, considering who did Rendon Howe's voice, it should have been blatantly obvious to us earlier that he was ultimately the main villain of the entire series. 

Modifié par Oneiropolos, 11 avril 2011 - 04:06 .

[vedlingtonii]

Oneiropolos wrote...
edit: Of course, considering who did Rendon Howe's voice, it should have been blatantly obvious to us earlier that he was ultimately the main villain of the entire series.

You mean... there are some people who DON'T KNOW?

I am sitting here aghast.