111 réponses à ce sujet

[Legbiter]

His will be a tragic end, self-appointed vanguard of humanity fallen to Reaper indoctrination. Death will grant him release.

[PauseforEffect]

Seems inevitable that a face-off against Cerberus (again) is coming. Even Shepard's dialogue when giving the base to them gave a tone of dislike.
While Alliance and the Council have their own skeletons in the closet, the difference is that their mistakes have not required Shepard to walk over dead humans due to their own organizations making pointless, stupid, wasteful decisions. Still waiting to hear their excuse for Akuze, a stupid wasteful move with no profit in sight.

[aeetos21]

^^Which is why Toombs went after the Alliance and not Cerberus?

Modifié par aeetos21, 10 avril 2011 - 02:55 .

[PauseforEffect]

Toombs went after scientists of Cerberus working in the Alliance. No organization is ever pure or will have the best interests of everyone all the time. But it's the consistency of results that determines the worth. Alliance may be just as manipulative and prone to screw-ups as shown with the Darius and nuclear probe incident, but there were FAR less corpses paying for those mistakes

[Kaiser Shepard]

Jzadek72 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Jzadek72 wrote...

Uhhm, did you read the books?

Yes, and the books made Cerberus look even better than the games did.

...That's possibly the most disturbing thing I've read all day...

Meh, Cerbies calling Anderson a traitor to humanity and the Alliance is at least as bad.

[Varus Praetor]

I think deposing TIM and taking control of Cerberus to help fight the Reapers would be a great mission. You may have pissed of TIM by either blowing up the base, or "stealing" the SR2 (or both), but the Cerberus grunts likely love you.

[lovgreno]

Legbiter wrote...

His will be a tragic end, self-appointed vanguard of humanity fallen to Reaper indoctrination. Death will grant him release.

Yeah. he is a bit of a tragic figure.

[Nigawatts]

Varus Praetor wrote...

I think deposing TIM and taking control of Cerberus to help fight the Reapers would be a great mission. You may have pissed of TIM by either blowing up the base, or "stealing" the SR2 (or both), but the Cerberus grunts likely love you.

The whole "Cerberus grunts likely love you" makes me imagine the Henchman from Venture Bros. In the season 2 finale Brock Samson lead them against Phantom Limb, and when Brock came out he was like "I know I've beaten on most of you, but now we gotta work together." and all the henchmen were like "We forgive you Brock Samson!" "We love you Brock Samson!"

[Bluko]

Hmm  indeed...

T.I.M.:"Wait, Shepard you can't kill me I'm the one who brought you back to life! Think where the galaxy would be if I hadn't brought you back!"

Shepard:"Is that why you've been trying to kill me?!"

T.I.M.:"A misunderstanding. Look I instructed my men to bring you back alive at any cost. If it seemed like they we're trying to kill you, that would be more due to your own resilience."

Shepard:"Yeah? Well you could have fooled me."

T.I.M.:"Shepard you've all but destroyed Cerberus. I have nothing left! After saving the galaxy you'd kill me simply out of some kind of petty revenge?"

Shepard:'I won't kill you. Cause even though you're nothing short of a tyrant,  I still owe you my life. But I don't have to stop someone else who might."

*Toombs walks in*

Toombs:"So... this is The Illusive Man?"

*T.I.M. inhales cigarette deeply*

T.I.M.:"Dammit."

[GodWood]

I'm getting the feeling the majority just project the crimes of Cerberus onto TIM.

[lovgreno]

GodWood wrote...

I'm getting the feeling the majority just project the crimes of Cerberus onto TIM.

Well he is the supposed leader of Cerberus and thus the one ultimately responsible.

[GodWood]

lovgreno wrote...

GodWood wrote...
I'm getting the feeling the majority just project the crimes of Cerberus onto TIM.

Well he is the supposed leader of Cerberus and thus the one ultimately responsible.

No the ones who commited the acts are ultimately responsible.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

GodWood wrote...

lovgreno wrote...

GodWood wrote...
I'm getting the feeling the majority just project the crimes of Cerberus onto TIM.

Well he is the supposed leader of Cerberus and thus the one ultimately responsible.

No the ones who commited the acts are ultimately responsible.

Sure, but he shares some of the responsibility. The argument goes something like this.

Say you run a school. And you need your test scores to go up. You cut down on regulations that help curb cheating. You also tell them that if their test scores don't go up, they'll be fired.

A few months later, several of your teachers are found to have helped students cheat on tests. Are you responsible? Not directly, no, But you created an environment where that was much, much more likely to happen.

That's simply the kindest possible example. TIM has created an environment where it is understood that, as long as you get results, you probably won't be punished too harshly for any unethical behavior. Conversely, if you don't get results, he's not going to give you a pat on the back for behaving super ethically.

If you're a warden at a prison and you tell someone "There's a rule against killing prisoners. But every prisoner who dies on your watch, you get $10,000 dollars," and then a bunch of prisoners die... you're at least partially responsible. I think TIM is somewhere between the teacher in my first example and the warden in my last one, in terms of culpability.

[Ieldra]

Ultai wrote...
I disagree, I'm more interested in the Shep/Reaper situation than fulfilling some petty desire to kill TIM.

I agree with this. Cerberus and TIM have to be somehow dealt with (which does not necessarily mean killing TIM but it might come to that), but I'll do that in the context of the bigger picture.

Saphra Deden wrote...

GodWood wrote...
I do not understand this desire to kill TIM.

It's a matter of pride. The same people who hate TIM are the same ones who hate Udina. Both Udina and TIM do not treat you like you are the center of the universe. People hate that. They don't like characters who don't submit to their authority.

There is that yes. But also this: morality is driven by emotions. So here we have a man who
(a) does reprehensible things (moral passion is situation-independent, so the bigger picture doesn't count)
( manipulates events so that we have no choice but to work for him.
© remains uninfluenced by our charm/intimidation (and isn't that almost unique....)
(d) and, having those hateful traits, he has the gall of being responsible for our coming back from the dead.
It's almost the perfect recipe for a knee-jerk hate reaction. 

Personally, I do not like him and I do not trust him, but he has my respect. If not for him, Shepard would not have been able to do what she did in ME2. If anything, "I want him dead" is far too simplistic an attitude when it comes to TIM.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 10 avril 2011 - 07:19 .

[KotOREffecT]

TIM and Shepards destiny is unavoidable. There will be a confrontation all right, like Luke and Vader in ROTJ. Who knows what will go down though, or who else might be around them(someone close like Ash or Anderson). Or what kind of revelation might be revealed..
Remember though, TIM told Shep at the end of ME2 that Shep needed him, for what purpose though, who knows......

[lovgreno]

GodWood wrote...

lovgreno wrote...

GodWood wrote...
I'm getting the feeling the majority just project the crimes of Cerberus onto TIM.

Well he is the supposed leader of Cerberus and thus the one ultimately responsible.

No the ones who commited the acts are ultimately responsible.

TIMmy gave the teams the expected goal, the resources and a nice quiet remote place where they can do whatever they want to reach said goal. TIMmy didn't bother to check what they actualy did. A leader must lead or he is not doing his job.

[GodWood]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
Sure, but he shares some of the responsibility.

Indeed, TIM does share partial resonsibility for some of the crimes committed, he is not however the true criminal, the ones who committed the crimes are.

lovgreno wrote...

GodWood wrote...

lovgreno wrote...

GodWood wrote...
I'm getting the feeling the majority just project the crimes of Cerberus onto TIM.

Well he is the supposed leader of Cerberus and thus the one ultimately responsible.

No the ones who commited the acts are ultimately responsible.

TIMmy gave the teams the expected goal, the resources and a nice quiet remote place where they can do whatever they want to reach said goal. TIMmy didn't bother to check what they actualy did. A leader must lead or he is not doing his job.

Seems to me people just feel the need to punish someone for Cerberus' crimes and since they don't actually know who committed them they just project all their hate onto TIM irregardless of how involved or responsible he was.

Modifié par GodWood, 10 avril 2011 - 07:39 .

[Jzadek72]

GodWood wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
Sure, but he shares some of the responsibility.

Indeed, TIM does share partial resonsibility for some of the crimes committed, he is not however the true criminal, the ones who committed the crimes are.

lovgreno wrote...

GodWood wrote...

lovgreno wrote...

GodWood wrote...
I'm getting the feeling the majority just project the crimes of Cerberus onto TIM.

Well he is the supposed leader of Cerberus and thus the one ultimately responsible.

No the ones who commited the acts are ultimately responsible.

TIMmy gave the teams the expected goal, the resources and a nice quiet remote place where they can do whatever they want to reach said goal. TIMmy didn't bother to check what they actualy did. A leader must lead or he is not doing his job.

Seems to me people just feel the need to punish someone for Cerberus' crimes and since they don't actually know who committed them they just project all their hate onto TIM irregardless of how involved or responsible he was.

He allowed it to happen, either through involvement or negligence, and considering he's leading the group, that's still a pretty major crime.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I'm not a TIM hater. I mean I won't be used as a tool and I somewhat resented his intention to do so, but he also brought me back to life and gave me a ship, so I figure we're even. And by "gave me" I mean "yoink!" I do think he'd make a super awesome villain, though, for many reasons. He's one of your most well-developed NPCs, but he is overconfident and has questionable morality. That makes for a much more interesting and worthy adversary than someone who is simply going to end all life. Also, he generates a lot of different feelings in different players. 

As a Paragon, i think one of the reasons you want to kill him is that he's an example of a necessary evil. something you're fundamentally uncomfortable with. So. now that his usefulness has ended, it's time to make sure he gets the end that all evil, necessary or not, finds at the end of all true heroes' tales. That's the standard reason, anyway.

My Paragon is a little different. To her, TIM is a path that is too, too easy to possibly go down, in pursuit of science and good. Where do you stop making compromises? Where do you stop honoring life? TIM is what she is afraid she will have to become, someday. Can he be saved? probably not. Maybe someday she'll be beyond that salvation, herself.

For some Renegades, TIM is despicable simply because he is so successful, rich, and powerful, and he tried to keep you in a gilded cage. Don't you deserve all that money, all that power? Couldn't you do it better? Time to kill the old man and take his seat on the throne, champion of all humanity. It's your birthright, not the providence of some lazy chainsmoker.

For a other Renegades. TIM can be a surrogate father, the great king or boss or general you always wanted but never had. He wants all the right things. He gets things done. He brought you back to life. Having to kill him would suck. Better to join him, rule together as equals.

So killing him is both morally and emotionally interesting, as is what you decide to "do" with Cerberus after. Disband it? Try to reform it? Take it over and turn it against your enemies? It's your call, and a very interesting one.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 10 avril 2011 - 10:04 .

[omgmahbrain]

Just because the Council and the Alliance are shady too, that doesn't make it right. And from what we've seen, Cerberus is worse.

When was the last time Cerberus committed genocide or allowed genocide to be committed? Moreover, the Council is a body that enforces a galactic dictatorship. I understand Cerberus has done some terrible things, but have they done anything that rivals the Council's worst crimes? I think the answer is clearly 'no'.

[Sebby]

omgmahbrain wrote...

Just because the Council and the Alliance are shady too, that doesn't make it right. And from what we've seen, Cerberus is worse.

When was the last time Cerberus committed genocide or allowed genocide to be committed? Moreover, the Council is a body that enforces a galactic dictatorship. I understand Cerberus has done some terrible things, but have they done anything that rivals the Council's worst crimes? I think the answer is clearly 'no'.

Indeed, the council's actions have lead to the extermination of the Rachni and later the sterlization of the Krogan. It's also a Turian/Asari/Salarian racial caste good ol' boys' club that shuns other races' (Volus,Quarian,Batarian,etc) from having equal represenation.

Jack Harper has every right to be concerned about humanity's interests and long term surival

[GuardianAngel470]

Chewin3 wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Thank you, TIM.

[Boom. Headshot.]

What if you miss?

I won't.