TIM :"Shepard i made you, I gave you life when there was nothing, You should be in awe - i am GOD to you! -".
[Boom Headshot inferno ammo]
Shep:"Fitting..now you're just a burning bush".
The confrontation with the Illusive Man will be the best part of Mass Effect 3
Débuté par
PsychoWARD23
, avril 09 2011 07:05
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#77
Posté 10 avril 2011 - 11:13
TobyHasEyes
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Seboist wrote...
omgmahbrain wrote...
Just because the Council and the Alliance are shady too, that doesn't make it right. And from what we've seen, Cerberus is worse.
When was the last time Cerberus committed genocide or allowed genocide to be committed? Moreover, the Council is a body that enforces a galactic dictatorship. I understand Cerberus has done some terrible things, but have they done anything that rivals the Council's worst crimes? I think the answer is clearly 'no'.
Indeed, the council's actions have lead to the extermination of the Rachni and later the sterlization of the Krogan. It's also a Turian/Asari/Salarian racial caste good ol' boys' club that shuns other races' (Volus,Quarian,Batarian,etc) from having equal represenation.
Jack Harper has every right to be concerned about humanity's interests and long term surival
Membership to the Council seems to be based on the idea that your species can join the Council if you can show you are willing to put the needs of the galaxy above the needs of your own species. They have sometimes made arguably 'nasty' decisions when forced into a corner, but at least I can get behind the principle. Jack Harper is willing to make 'nasty' decisions based simply on advancing humanity regardless of the impact on the rest of the galaxy. Its the difference between doing whatever it takes to save the world and doing whatever it takes to advance, say, the UK's interests.
I could even get behind a group which united all non-Council races in increasing your standing. For that reason a lot of my me1 playthroughs involved Shep, Wrex and Tali. But really, I think the Council would be rubbish if it was made up of race representatives who simply fought to advance their species' interests
#78
Posté 10 avril 2011 - 11:40
Tyrannosaurus Rex
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CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
I'm not a TIM hater. I mean I won't be used as a tool and I somewhat resented his intention to do so, but he also brought me back to life and gave me a ship, so I figure we're even. And by "gave me" I mean "yoink!" I do think he'd make a super awesome villain, though, for many reasons. He's one of your most well-developed NPCs, but he is overconfident and has questionable morality. That makes for a much more interesting and worthy adversary than someone who is simply going to end all life. Also, he generates a lot of different feelings in different players.
I disagree. What made TIM interesting was that he was not Shepard's friend (this is how most players felt I guess), but he was not his enemy either. The fact that he was a grey character and a third party with his own agenda made him interesting. Now? He is just another bad guy gunning for Shepard. TIM being made into a villain makes the character lose alot of its charm.
Another reason I disliked Cerberus being turned into villains is the fact that they pretty much represented many renegade Shepards. Paragon Shep got the council and the alliance as their representing factions, what does renegade Shepard got now?
#79
Posté 10 avril 2011 - 11:52
CulturalGeekGirl
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Lizardviking wrote...
CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
I'm not a TIM hater. I mean I won't be used as a tool and I somewhat resented his intention to do so, but he also brought me back to life and gave me a ship, so I figure we're even. And by "gave me" I mean "yoink!" I do think he'd make a super awesome villain, though, for many reasons. He's one of your most well-developed NPCs, but he is overconfident and has questionable morality. That makes for a much more interesting and worthy adversary than someone who is simply going to end all life. Also, he generates a lot of different feelings in different players.
I disagree. What made TIM interesting was that he was not Shepard's friend (this is how most players felt I guess), but he was not his enemy either. The fact that he was a grey character and a third party with his own agenda made him interesting. Now? He is just another bad guy gunning for Shepard. TIM being made into a villain makes the character lose alot of its charm.
Another reason I disliked Cerberus being turned into villains is the fact that they pretty much represented many renegade Shepards. Paragon Shep got the council and the alliance as their representing factions, what does renegade Shepard got now?
When I said villain, I didn't mean "generic bad guy who wants to murder you." I was thinking more that there must be something in the back of Shepard's head that is going "I thought he was... more reasonable than this... what is he up to?"
I don't expect him to be cackling and steepling his fingers. I think he has a damn good reason for this, or at least thinks he does, and it is going to bug the HELL out of my Shep what that reason could be. What if he's right? What if I'm indoctrinated? How could I tell? etc. Who knows? When my copy of GI finally shows up, I'll read what it actually SAYS about this, and post a bit about it. I have the feeling we may be getting a misinterpretation of what's going on. I could be wrong, though.
#80
Posté 10 avril 2011 - 12:04
Tyrannosaurus Rex
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CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
Lizardviking wrote...
I disagree. What made TIM interesting was that he was not Shepard's friend (this is how most players felt I guess), but he was not his enemy either. The fact that he was a grey character and a third party with his own agenda made him interesting. Now? He is just another bad guy gunning for Shepard. TIM being made into a villain makes the character lose alot of its charm.
Another reason I disliked Cerberus being turned into villains is the fact that they pretty much represented many renegade Shepards. Paragon Shep got the council and the alliance as their representing factions, what does renegade Shepard got now?
When I said villain, I didn't mean "generic bad guy who wants to murder you." I was thinking more that there must be something in the back of Shepard's head that is going "I thought he was... more reasonable than this... what is he up to?"
I don't expect him to be cackling and steepling his fingers. I think he has a damn good reason for this, or at least thinks he does, and it is going to bug the HELL out of my Shep what that reason could be. What if he's right? What if I'm indoctrinated? How could I tell? etc. Who knows? When my copy of GI finally shows up, I'll read what it actually SAYS about this, and post a bit about it. I have the feeling we may be getting a misinterpretation of what's going on. I could be wrong, though.
The "TIM is trying to kill Shepard because he is a key-part of the Reapers plan" is so far the only explaination that I could buy for why is trying to murder him. But I have this bad feeling that Bioware's reason for why Cerberus is against us now is simply "TIM is evulz luls" <_<.
But no matter what, the whole thing is bothering me because Cerberus should have never been made into an opposing force to begin with.
#81
Posté 10 avril 2011 - 12:12
TobyHasEyes
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As much as I am no fan of TIM or Cerberus, I do think we need a good reason for them to hunt down Shepard. I do think though, when he referenced to the Collector Base ensuring human dominance against the Reaper threat "and beyond" it did seem like he has much more on his mind than beating the Reapers. To me it seems naive to think of much beyond the Reaper threat, for example I am not Paragon out of some thinking that a unified galaxy post-Reapers would be nicer (though it would), but out of the idea that a unified galaxy is better suited to tackle the Reapers.
So it is not completely unrealistic for TIM to take his eyes of the ball
So it is not completely unrealistic for TIM to take his eyes of the ball
#82
Posté 10 avril 2011 - 12:25
Ieldra
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[quote]Saphra Deden wrote...
[quote]Ieldra2 wrote...
But also this: morality is driven by emotions. List. Knee-jerk reaction. Ect...[/quote]
Indeed, but when we grow up we're supposed to detach our emotions from our morals. Just because something feels right doesn't mean it is and just because it feels wrong doesn't mean it is wrong. With all that is at stake I think we need to set aside our emotions and our morals to look at the big picture. As bad as TIM is, he isn't the worst figure out there. Nor are Cerberus even the worst faction, despite any transgressions made by its leaders.[/quote]
I agree. My post was supposed to be a descriptive account. The thing is: we are supposed to detach our morals from our emotions, but how many people actually manage that, and in how many cultures on Earth is this actually supposed to happen? Studies have convincingly shown the "intuitive primacy" when it comes to morality. A more rational attitude is mental work and mostly restricted to highly educated people.
[quote]Ieldra2 wrote...
Personally, I do not like him and I do not trust him, but he has my respect. If not for him, Shepard would not have been able to do what she did in ME2. If anything, "I want him dead" is far too simplistic an attitude when it comes to TIM.
[/quote]
I don't trust him either, not on a personal level anyway. I only trust TIM in the sense that I trust that his feelings on humanity are genuine. He isn't secretly a selfish-capitalist out for personal gain and he is not a coward. When he told you it was a tempting offer to board the Normandy and go on the trip through the Omega-4 Relay I suspect that he was telling the truth.
He and Cerberus aren't given enough credit for what they did in ME2. Bringing Shepard back was the least of their accomplishments. Once Shepard was up and running it was Cerberus that gave him all his leads and all his assets. Ultimately in ME2 Shepard was mostly just a guy with a gun while TIM did all the strategic planning. [/quote]
I agree on this as well. Without TIM bringing back Shepard and giving her what was needed, a few million humans more would be Reaper food, and there would be a human Reaper in the galaxy. There would be no EDI and no SR2, even had Shepard been alive and someone else given him the same mission, he'd never have made it past the Collector Ship.
[quote]Ieldra2 wrote...
But also this: morality is driven by emotions. List. Knee-jerk reaction. Ect...[/quote]
Indeed, but when we grow up we're supposed to detach our emotions from our morals. Just because something feels right doesn't mean it is and just because it feels wrong doesn't mean it is wrong. With all that is at stake I think we need to set aside our emotions and our morals to look at the big picture. As bad as TIM is, he isn't the worst figure out there. Nor are Cerberus even the worst faction, despite any transgressions made by its leaders.[/quote]
I agree. My post was supposed to be a descriptive account. The thing is: we are supposed to detach our morals from our emotions, but how many people actually manage that, and in how many cultures on Earth is this actually supposed to happen? Studies have convincingly shown the "intuitive primacy" when it comes to morality. A more rational attitude is mental work and mostly restricted to highly educated people.
[quote]Ieldra2 wrote...
Personally, I do not like him and I do not trust him, but he has my respect. If not for him, Shepard would not have been able to do what she did in ME2. If anything, "I want him dead" is far too simplistic an attitude when it comes to TIM.
[/quote]
I don't trust him either, not on a personal level anyway. I only trust TIM in the sense that I trust that his feelings on humanity are genuine. He isn't secretly a selfish-capitalist out for personal gain and he is not a coward. When he told you it was a tempting offer to board the Normandy and go on the trip through the Omega-4 Relay I suspect that he was telling the truth.
He and Cerberus aren't given enough credit for what they did in ME2. Bringing Shepard back was the least of their accomplishments. Once Shepard was up and running it was Cerberus that gave him all his leads and all his assets. Ultimately in ME2 Shepard was mostly just a guy with a gun while TIM did all the strategic planning. [/quote]
I agree on this as well. Without TIM bringing back Shepard and giving her what was needed, a few million humans more would be Reaper food, and there would be a human Reaper in the galaxy. There would be no EDI and no SR2, even had Shepard been alive and someone else given him the same mission, he'd never have made it past the Collector Ship.
Modifié par Ieldra2, 10 avril 2011 - 12:25 .
#83
Posté 10 avril 2011 - 12:30
GodWood
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Not at all.TobyHasEyes wrote...
Membership to the Council seems to be based on the idea that your species can join the Council if you can show you are willing to put the needs of the galaxy above the needs of your own species.
Membership to the council is based purely on military strength and numbers.
#84
Posté 10 avril 2011 - 12:34
Sebby
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TIM knows that even if the Reapers are stopped that a lot humans will be killed and that afterwords there'd be a race for all the species to gather up enough Reaper tech for themselves(like with what happened to Sovereign's remains).
TIM is perfectly justified in wanting the Collector Base to insure "human dominance against the Reapers and beyond" and has my Femshep's support on a personal and strategic level.
TIM is perfectly justified in wanting the Collector Base to insure "human dominance against the Reapers and beyond" and has my Femshep's support on a personal and strategic level.
Modifié par Seboist, 10 avril 2011 - 12:37 .
#85
Posté 10 avril 2011 - 12:44
omgmahbrain
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Not at all.
Membership to the council is based purely on military strength and numbers.
The volus' lack of membership is an excellent example of that.
#86
Posté 10 avril 2011 - 12:46
TobyHasEyes
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GodWood wrote...
Not at all.TobyHasEyes wrote...
Membership to the Council seems to be based on the idea that your species can join the Council if you can show you are willing to put the needs of the galaxy above the needs of your own species.
Membership to the council is based purely on military strength and numbers.
Turians were made Council members because of the sacrifices they made in stopping the Krogans
#87
Posté 10 avril 2011 - 12:48
TobyHasEyes
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The same argument is used at the end of me1 if you save the Council, as to why humanity can now have a seat in the Council (bearing in mind if you save the Council, human numbers and military strength will if anything have gone down, due to said sacrifices)
#88
Posté 10 avril 2011 - 12:50
Sebby
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TobyHasEyes wrote...
GodWood wrote...
Not at all.TobyHasEyes wrote...
Membership to the Council seems to be based on the idea that your species can join the Council if you can show you are willing to put the needs of the galaxy above the needs of your own species.
Membership to the council is based purely on military strength and numbers.
Turians were made Council members because of the sacrifices they made in stopping the Krogans
Sacrifices they could have only made because of their military strength. Did the Krogans get a seat for their sacrifices against Rachni? NO!
#89
Posté 10 avril 2011 - 12:55
TobyHasEyes
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Seboist wrote...
TobyHasEyes wrote...
GodWood wrote...
Not at all.TobyHasEyes wrote...
Membership to the Council seems to be based on the idea that your species can join the Council if you can show you are willing to put the needs of the galaxy above the needs of your own species.
Membership to the council is based purely on military strength and numbers.
Turians were made Council members because of the sacrifices they made in stopping the Krogans
Sacrifices they could have only made because of their military strength. Did the Krogans get a seat for their sacrifices against Rachni? NO!
If you intend to use the Krogans as evidence against my 'sacrifice-perspective' view of the Council, then you have to admit that it also works against the 'military-strength' view as well. Clearly the reason Krogans were not allowed a Council seat is because of the Krogan Rebellions
#90
Posté 10 avril 2011 - 01:06
Tyrannosaurus Rex
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TobyHasEyes wrote...
If you intend to use the Krogans as evidence against my 'sacrifice-perspective' view of the Council, then you have to admit that it also works against the 'military-strength' view as well. Clearly the reason Krogans were not allowed a Council seat is because of the Krogan Rebellions
In order for a race to become part of the council. It must have enough military strenght, and be a good team player with the other council races.
#91
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 10 avril 2011 - 01:09
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
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Ieldra2 wrote...
I agree. My post was supposed to be a descriptive account. The thing is: we are supposed to detach our morals from our emotions, but how many people actually manage that, and in how many cultures on Earth is this actually supposed to happen? Studies have convincingly shown the "intuitive primacy" when it comes to morality. A more rational attitude is mental work and mostly restricted to highly educated people.
I know what your post was doing and I'm agree with everything you are saying. Most people think with their hearts and not their heads. It is a lot more comforting to follow the herd.
I didn't start Mass Effect as a Renegade, you know. My first run of the game I made pretty much all Paragon choices with some intimidate thrown in. It took me discussing the game on the forums and reading some other webpages before I took the plunge. I had to work at it. Killing the rachni queen was very hard the first time I did it and I actually had a knot in my stomach.
Point is, you have to work at it. In the end it can change you a bit. The more clearly you understand the world the less bright it is, I find. The less sacred, too.
#92
Posté 10 avril 2011 - 01:22
TobyHasEyes
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Lizardviking wrote...
TobyHasEyes wrote...
If you intend to use the Krogans as evidence against my 'sacrifice-perspective' view of the Council, then you have to admit that it also works against the 'military-strength' view as well. Clearly the reason Krogans were not allowed a Council seat is because of the Krogan Rebellions
In order for a race to become part of the council. It must have enough military strenght, and be a good team player with the other council races.
So the expressed commitment to work in Council interests rather than your own, and the means to do so. Maybe I communicated it badly, but that was what I meant by when the game refers to recognising the sacrifices' of the Turians and humans being what elevated them to Council status.
Either way, the split here is whether being a good team player is seen as being part of the Council 'old boys club' or putting the interests of the galaxy ahead of your own species
#93
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 10 avril 2011 - 01:26
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
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It was indeed the sacrifices of the turians that elevated humanity to Council status. Humans were invited in because the Council races still lost a lot of ships. Humanity became stronger and if the Council didn't give them an invite the humans would be able to invite themselves.
You see? There is always a cynical angle to look at it from.
You see? There is always a cynical angle to look at it from.
#94
Posté 10 avril 2011 - 02:36
TobyHasEyes
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Won't deny the Council could be read as a negative force, I just don't buy it personally
#95
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 10 avril 2011 - 02:46
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TobyHasEyes wrote...
Won't deny the Council could be read as a negative force, I just don't buy it personally
Why won't you buy it? The writing's on the wall, sir.
They treat everyone like crap, including you.
#96
Posté 10 avril 2011 - 02:50
Sebby
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The Council also has a secret police force that can do whatever it wants(to a certain point).
#97
Posté 10 avril 2011 - 02:59
TobyHasEyes
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Saphra Deden wrote...
TobyHasEyes wrote...
Won't deny the Council could be read as a negative force, I just don't buy it personally
Why won't you buy it? The writing's on the wall, sir.
They treat everyone like crap, including you.
Am not trying to goad you or anyone, but could you give some examples of the Council treating people like crap because, though I don't agree with every decision they are said to have made, in general I empathise with their choices
#98
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 10 avril 2011 - 03:21
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
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TobyHasEyes wrote...
Am not trying to goad you or anyone, but could you give some examples of the Council treating people like crap
Okay, first they uplift an innocent species to serve as cannon fodder in a war. Later when that species, which was not ready for interstellar civilization, becomes a problem the Council nearly drives them to extinction too. Look at it from the krogan perspective. They got completely screwed because of the Councils medling.
Centuries later when the geth turn on their creators and the quarians are being killed in the tens of billions, their entire civilization being eradicated, the Council does nothing. Despite knowing and observing the danger the geth present, the Council is content to let the quarians be eradicated then to discriminate against the survivors. The quarians too are on the brink of extinction.
This policy in addition to cruel, was stupid. A.I. were already outlawed because of the danger yet the Council was unwilling to confront the threat. They should have destroyed the geth 300 years ago instead of letting them develop in secrecy beyond the capability of anyone to control. Look at how that paid off.
Some time later we have the batarians, who petitioned the Council to stop the humans from colonizing a region already claimed by them. The Council however had no use for the batarians since the humans were stronger. So the batarians got screwed.
When the geth invaded the Traverse and began attacking human colonies did the Council take action? No, they refused to do anything and undermined the investigation into Saren. They wouldn't sen the fleet and indeed tried to blame humanity for the situation. They repeated this line when the Collectors attacked our colonies.
As others have pointed out the Council also maintains control with the Spectres. The Spectres are secret agents with no accountability and the right to violate the civil liberties of any citizen who gets in their way or is an inconvenience. The only people who control them are the Councilor's themselves, which makes them private enforcers, not agents of the law.
Spectres are ruthless murderers. Saren is the perfect example of this. He was their golden boy for decades and his reputation was well known. The Council simply didn't care. All the Council cares about when it comes to Spectres is that they get results. Therefore they sanction the brutalitly Spectres perpetuate.
Furthermore, consider the Council's justifications for the races under its control and in its ranks. They say that only a race with a large and formidable military can meet the responsbilities of membership. However at the same time the Council outlaws such militar-strength with the Treaty of Farixen and considers any race that tries to build up its military to be "rogue". If you play by the Council's rules you will never be one of them because the rules are designed to keep others out. That's why in 3000 years of history the volus are still not members, despite making immense contributions to the galaxy.
So my point is, they are not better than us or anyone else. The Council just has the luxury of being at the top of the food chain because they were in the right place at the right time. As far as I'm concerned that gives us the right to assume the same kind of dominance they have. They aren't entitled it, nobody is.
#99
Posté 10 avril 2011 - 03:24
TobyHasEyes
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Seboist wrote...
The Council also has a secret police force that can do whatever it wants(to a certain point).
Could argue that Spectre's are more accountable, but have to accept that we don't know what sort of parameters the Council puts on their behaviour (how far a Spectre has to go to have gone too far) and the same can be said for TIM and Cerberus agents.
The significant difference as I say is I see the Council as taking decisions that best benefit the galaxy as a whole, even if they do not satisfy the impatience of any one species. The argument then is whether you believe that is the way decisions should be made, or whether you believe the Council has a secret agenda to put down various species and keep things Asari, Salarian and Turian run
#100
Posté 10 avril 2011 - 03:45
Maestro975
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If is this is the end, I figure there will be some endings where TIM survives and some where he doesn't, but the same will hold for Anderson, Liara, Joker, and even Shepard.
I can't believe how many Mary Sues and Pollyannas are here. Next thing you know there'll be some naive ideaologues wanting to arrest Bailey for taking money from the mob. (Seriously, if someone really wants that option, then they should be forced to wear a Javert nametag at all times).
Neutral Pragmatic Shepard FTW.
I can't believe how many Mary Sues and Pollyannas are here. Next thing you know there'll be some naive ideaologues wanting to arrest Bailey for taking money from the mob. (Seriously, if someone really wants that option, then they should be forced to wear a Javert nametag at all times).
Neutral Pragmatic Shepard FTW.
