49 réponses à ce sujet

[Sinfulvannila]

I completely disagree with the silent protangonist part. For one thing, it's not actually a silent protagonist. Silent protagonists never chime in, they just gesture. For another thing, this game is far longer and has many more dialogue options than Mass Effect 2.

I also disagree that the game needs the arbitrary qualities of "vision, inspiration and soul" or even "originality", graphics, music etc. A game is a game first and formost. The gameplay should be the number one priority in it's development. That is something that Bioware has failed to do since Baldur's Gate 2 and has finally succeeded in with Dragon Age. Any window dressing is great, as long as it complements the gameplay. A game should never be chided for lacking something unneccesary.

Modifié par Sinfulvannila, 19 novembre 2009 - 06:57 .

[MadaSnave2]

i think bioware did a great job on many things, i think they failed on the core game in many aspects though.

1 the core game was broken on launch dex was pointless. if this had been an mmo like they plan to launch next year it would of lost 40% of its players day one.

2 they said they created a whole new world not based upon any other world. the bad guys look like orcs and goblins and have ogres with them... oh and are lead by dragons. omg i could of got this in a nes title!!! yes they do have new ideas of society, ie elves are looked at as scumb by humans and vise versa... well thats not really new thats the norm cep elves look at the humans as slave holders where as most games have elves looking at humans as destoryers of nature.

3 they advertised a toolset that was used to create the game, but from what ive seen of it the game was created and put into the tool set. and the tool set its self haveing to be downloaded seperately wow i digitally perchased the game and had to wait for it to dl, then had to download another 1/2 gig for a program that in every other game they included in the orignal game. and then to get the fixes for my game i have to have that because patches are a thing of the future and hottfixes requier the toolset.

as far as the storyline its self it was not wholely predictable but lacks a lot of replay to me, i have played all the way through each of the origens and they are well done, some funner then others but thats for you to decide. what gets me is how freaking long the game is and how dule it is in the middle and really in the end but there is excitment twards the end. its just once you know the story haveing to sit through the same betrails and the same choices even if you chose them diffrent you can tell which side will do what no matter who you chose because you saw what the other side would do and that sides reaction. just replay is dule to me, and the toolset's lack of being used by the average player makes the game collect dust had i perchsed disk.

edit:

Sinfulvannila wrote...

I completely disagree with the silent protangonist part. For one thing, it's not actually a silent protagonist. Silent protagonists never chime in, they just gesture. For another thing, this game is far longer and has many more dialogue options than Mass Effect 2.

I also disagree that the game needs the arbitrary qualities of "vision, inspiration and soul" or even "originality", graphics, music etc. A game is a game first and formost. The gameplay should be the number one priority in it's development. That is something that Bioware has failed to do since Baldur's Gate 2 and has finally succeeded in with Dragon Age. Any window dressing is great, as long as it complements the gameplay. A game should never be chided for lacking something unneccesary.

the game play is great had it had dex fixed so that rogues and dual weilding warriors had been able to play fully from the start i would of been better, that oversite when bioware its self stated they focused more on haveing hte core game play done then anything else is a MAJOR over site.  it shouldnt of goten past alpha that way and the closed beta should of got it and how open beta didnt i dont know.

Modifié par MadaSnave2, 19 novembre 2009 - 07:15 .

[Sinfulvannila]

IMO the dagger fix is a minor oversight. It hardly makes rogues or especially DW warriors unplayable and at low levels it doesn't even make a difference. I would go so far to say that it doesn't really affect the core gameplay. Plus there was a fan fix out for it like day 1.

Modifié par Sinfulvannila, 19 novembre 2009 - 07:26 .

[SphereofSilence]

Sinfulvannila wrote...

I also disagree that the game needs the arbitrary qualities of "vision, inspiration and soul" or even "originality", graphics, music etc. A game is a game first and formost. The gameplay should be the number one priority in it's development. That is something that Bioware has failed to do since Baldur's Gate 2 and has finally succeeded in with Dragon Age. Any window dressing is great, as long as it complements the gameplay. A game should never be chided for lacking something unneccesary.

For any other most games, yes. But not for a blockbuster RPG that is DAO. The combat is probably the best I've seen from BW. What's lacking is that little spark that draws people in to a fantasy realm. To me, for a sprawling RPG with such narrative strength needs a very compelling world that goes beyond just physical environments and characters. Call it background lore, history, soul, setting, identity or whatever, the point is it's an area that is an equally important one as combat.

[Thibbledorf26]

What BW did right:



clever use of slightly old graphics to create vast, detailed 3d areas which pcs can fight and explore in, without much lag. Good graphical options to scale to your computer.



-Very good sound and music, but not perfect. Superb voice acting.



-interesting story



-truckload of interesting rpg choices and dialogue interactions, including coercion options



-well-balanced and fun combat. each class had a different, powerful role it could fulfill in combat, and I think the combats were enjoyable.



-very few bugs, well-developed game, obviously tested thoroughly.



-interesting lore, they really have the little details that only come from a focused and refined game world and concept.



-good dialogue and companion interaction.



What BW did wrong:



-many dungeons are too long, repetitive and mundane in parts. It can start to feel like a hack and slash game at some points.



-too much fighting. I expected a lot of combat, but there are too many repetitive groups of enemies encountered again and again in the same kinds of rooms.



-some areas feel like they are there to pad time, which is totally uncessary in this already very long game. If BW reduced the size of dungeons so you could get to the sweet story parts quicker, the game would be a lot more consistently fun, and would still be long. It seems like BW worried about the people who will always complain that a game is short, so they amped up the dungeon lenghts. BW, do not worry about people complaining about the game length. If a dedicated player makes an attempt to experience most of the content and ends up with a long playtime, that is what important. There is always someone who will skip all the dialogue and the meat of the game, to brag about completing it in 2 hours or something. Do not cater to them.



-minor graphical bugs, not worth mentioning them specifically, but you'll see them.



-some npcs are too long-winded. I enjoy long dialogues as long as there is something interesting to say, but many npcs spend too long saying nothing. Remember some merchants who would give you the same thirty-second long response when you asked to see their wares? After hearing the same response ten times, it gets frustrating.



-pickpocketing and opening locks are boring skills, loot is mostly tons of low-level stuff.



-sometimes the game feels confused about what kind of tone it wants to maintain, there are some dark tones, some frantic horror scenes, and other captivating, high-fantasy scenes.



-having to wander around hellish, dark tunnels and ruins can be atmospheric and is necssary (you need to cleanse evil from somewhere), but if experienced for too long, can become depressing and loathsome. Keep the length of dungeons limited so they are both challenging and don't wear out their welcome



Overall it is still an excellent game, one of the best RPGs made. It is hard to find an RPG without many faults, as creating an RPG is a huge undertaking and can be more demanding than creating other genres of games.

[Sinfulvannila]

SphereofSilence wrote...

Sinfulvannila wrote...

I also disagree that the game needs the arbitrary qualities of "vision, inspiration and soul" or even "originality", graphics, music etc. A game is a game first and formost. The gameplay should be the number one priority in it's development. That is something that Bioware has failed to do since Baldur's Gate 2 and has finally succeeded in with Dragon Age. Any window dressing is great, as long as it complements the gameplay. A game should never be chided for lacking something unneccesary.

For any other most games, yes. But not for a blockbuster RPG that is DAO. The combat is probably the best I've seen from BW. What's lacking is that little spark that draws people in to a fantasy realm. To me, for a sprawling RPG with such narrative strength needs a very compelling world that goes beyond just physical environments and characters. Call it background lore, history, soul, setting, identity or whatever, the point is it's an area that is an equally important one as combat.

To me it you're coming off as meaning that for Bioware, ancilary elements are more important than actual gameplay. You start off by saying that it's the best combat that Bioware has ever done, yet you still express dissapointment in the game since it lacks an element you can't even define. How can you say Bioware failed if you can't even verbalize how they failed? If you truly believed that gameplay and whatever else are equally important, than a great deal of success in one factor relative to the other wouldn't bar you from satisfaction in the game.

I have a few questions for you:

1) Why simply blockbuster RPGs? Shouldn't all other games fall into your same standards for measurement. In gameplay, they may vary, but essentially they are all just code.

2)Is it possible you are letting expectations cloud your judgement? Since it was described as a story-based RPG, are you dissapointed because the story wasn't the high point of the game?

3)Why Bioware? They have hardly had a track record of original or imaginative games. The Baldur's Gate games, Neverwinter Nights and KOTOR have all been licensed from someone else's material. Mass Effect and Jade Empire may be Bioware's own intellectual property, but they have each been heavily influenced by contemporary science fiction and Asian mythology respectively. How is Dragon Age any different from Mass Effect or Jade Empire?

Modifié par Sinfulvannila, 19 novembre 2009 - 08:05 .

[SphereofSilence]

Sinfulvannila wrote...

To me it you're coming off as meaning that for Bioware, ancilary elements are more important than actual gameplay. You start off by saying that it's the best combat that Bioware has ever done, yet you still express dissapointment in the game since it lacks an element you can't even define. How can you say Bioware failed if you can't even verbalize how they failed? If you truly believed that gameplay and whatever else are equally important, than a great deal of success in one factor relative to the other wouldn't bar you from satisfaction in the game.

I have a few questions for you:

1) Why simply blockbuster RPGs? Shouldn't all other games fall into your same standards for measurement. In gameplay, they may vary, but essentially they are all just code.

2)Is it possible you are letting expectations cloud your judgement? Since it was described as a story-based RPG, are you dissapointed because the story wasn't the high point of the game?

3)Why Bioware? They have hardly had a track record of original or imaginative games. The Baldur's Gate games, Neverwinter Nights and KOTOR have all been licensed from someone else's material. Mass Effect and Jade Empire may be Bioware's own intellectual property, but they have each been heavily influenced by contemporary science fiction and Asian mythology respectively. How is Dragon Age any different from Mass Effect or Jade Empire?

I think you misunderstand where I'm coming from. I love and enjoyed the game immensely and would love to see improvements on the one area that I felt was overused. To put in simply, IMO, the game's world - while good - fell within all too familiar tropes - dwarves, elves, dragons, darkspawns (aka orc), swords and sorcery, etc. I'd expect the game to add enough spin and newness to it so that it remains fresh, but somehow it didn't for me. Mass Effect has certainly added enough spin, Jade Empire brought a largely unexplored eastern setting such that it felt truly new.

In general, most games don't need great stories, they don't need elaborate backstories and settings. Do you see that in Sims? What about Counter-Strike? Or Gears of War? But why then did BW spend years on background lores on the world of Dragon Age? Because they consider it important as a foundation for a great RPG/storytelling experience and I couldn't agree more on that. So no, not all games should fall within the game the same standards of measurement. I wouldn't expect a soccer game to have a great story because it doesn't need it.

[spernus]

SphereofSilence wrote...

I think you misunderstand where I'm coming from. I love and enjoyed the game immensely and would love to see improvements on the one area that I felt was overused. To put in simply, IMO, the game's world - while good - fell within all too familiar tropes - dwarves, elves, dragons, darkspawns (aka orc), swords and sorcery, etc. I'd expect the game to add enough spin and newness to it so that it remains fresh, but somehow it didn't for me. Mass Effect has certainly added enough spin, Jade Empire brought a largely unexplored eastern setting such that it felt truly new.

In general, most games don't need great stories, they don't need elaborate backstories and settings. Do you see that in Sims? What about Counter-Strike? Or Gears of War? But why then did BW spend years on background lores on the world of Dragon Age? Because they consider it important as a foundation for a great RPG/storytelling experience and I couldn't agree more on that. So no, not all games should fall within the game the same standards of measurement. I wouldn't expect a soccer game to have a great story because it doesn't need it.

Giving feedback is all good and dandy,but the fact remains that the world is already created.

I do not want to disappoint you too much,but Bioware just isn't original by any stretch of the imagination.Jade empire and Mass effect were quite sterile and generic as well,so I don't understand why you would say that it felt new.

It's something that you have to accept and understand if you want to enjoy a Bioware game,just like you have to accept that Final Fantasy is junevile and aimed at teens while Bethesda can't write or animate a game worth...

[SphereofSilence]

spernus wrote...

Giving feedback is all good and dandy,but the fact remains that the world is already created.

I do not want to disappoint you too much,but Bioware just isn't original by any stretch of the imagination.Jade empire and Mass effect were quite sterile and generic as well,so I don't understand why you would say that it felt new.

It's something that you have to accept and understand if you want to enjoy a Bioware game,just like you have to accept that Final Fantasy is junevile and aimed at teens while Bethesda can't write or animate a game worth...

Fact is, this is but the first of a franchise, so BW can still do something about it right? Not for Origins perhaps, but for the next installments and beyond. On Mass Effect and Jade Empire, well, it's a subjective matter, different people will feel differently. The last point, I did enjoy the game dude.

[Mnemnosyne]

SphereofSilence wrote...

-       The tempo is even quicker than the Dungeons & Dragons games that preceded Dragon Age, thanks to important tweaks that minimize downtime. For example, you do not need to rest between encounters to replenish your health and recharge your spells. Instead, health and stamina are replenished quickly once the skirmish ends, allowing you to string encounters together without unwanted breaks in between. Should a party member fall during battle, he or she will be resuscitated once the battle has ended. These factors, and more, give Dragon Age an excellent sense of forward direction.

While the consistently quick combat pace and lack of long-term resource management can be an advantage, it shouldn't be contrasted with the long-term resource management as though that were a bad point of the earlier games.  Of course, if you are the type that did rest between encounters, that's one thing, but having never played those games in such an absurd way, I can't speak to that playstyle, nor do I understand why anyone would choose to do it that way.  I can only say that learning to manage your resources over time was an interesting part of the game and overall strategy, and both methods have their advantages and disadvantages.  

Even I can't say I absolutely prefer one method over the other, because at times I do enjoy the ability to have all my spells available in every fight, as I do in Dragon Age.  At other times I find myself missing having to think long-term, like I did in the Baldur's Gate series, always weighing the decision of whether to use a spell at a particular moment as opposed to saving it for a later encounter before leaving the area to rest.

I will say that I particularly do not like the fact that party members automatically come back to life at the end of the combat.  Having a party member fall in combat should not be an occasion that is of little to no consequence.  I would be much happier if there was at least a chance that they die permanently, kind of like back in Baldur's Gate where they could be 'chunked' and therefore impossible to raise.  And I really wish that injuries posed a permanent penalty of some sort, rather than one easily removed.  As a player I should never feel like having a party member fall in battle is an acceptable loss in order to win the battle, and I should be doing everything within my power to avoid it.

[spernus]

SphereofSilence wrote...

Fact is, this is but the first of a franchise, so BW can still do something about it right? Not for Origins perhaps, but for the next installments and beyond. On Mass Effect and Jade Empire, well, it's a subjective matter, different people will feel differently. The last point, I did enjoy the game dude.

So do I,but I'm being realistic about Bioware's limits. <_<

If you think about it,developers like Blizzard who are considered king on PC created their own "material" since day one.You can say that Warcraft or Starcraft are mostly inspired from Warhammer/Warhammer 40000 and you are right,but Blizzard did put it's own spin on those universe to create their own.Even before those,Blizzard was creating stuff like Blackthorne or Lost vikings or Rock'n'roll racing. The same goes for Valve or most of the top tier western developer or even Square-Enix(love or hate,there's no denying that they do create their own worlds with a unique art style or monsters).
It took like 7 years for Bioware to create it's first "original" game which was a commercial flop. While they had to create characters and stories for the D&D or Star wars games,nobody is going to convince me that Bioware is the proper example of creativity.Even Black isles created their own franchise (Fallout) a year after being born.

[TimelordDC]

Greye wrote...

bleeding hearts wrote...

New/updated codex entries should be outlined in bright yellow when you open the codex--the general header as well as the little numbered boxes.

Thanks.  Yes, early on, I kept opening the codex to find things I thought I'd read, even entire sections, were re-highlighted again.  I assumed it was bugged.  I'm guessing on the PC you can mousewheel and just click these to open them.  On the PS3 I'm sure it's significantly more tedious to open and navigate all of the menus and their tabs, especially the codex.  I'm not complaining, DA is a great game, just telling it like it is.  New to console--this is the first game in years my PC could not run (due to CPU combined with Vista).

Same problem with receiving an item as with a codex entry, at least on PS3. "Items received."  I have to hunt through my entire pack to try to figure out what it was.  I look in weapons and armor, then give up.  If I don't even find anything, I'll hope to locate it when I'm at a vendor.  Or is there a solution to this?  A record, like a classic PC game chat window?  I don't find a standard game event log that includes items received, game saved, etc.  Some things I'm given I 'm not sure what they are or how much.  (Major Cunning, etc.)  No combat log either.

I agree with this, even though I am playing on the PC.
A log window would be nice -> to show what items were received, why did you level up suddenly (you didn't; you just unlocked a specialization...had me wondering what was wrong for a while), explanation for the companion boosts.
Also, the journal entries could have been done better. There are so many quests where you have to do things for multiple people and you lose track of what you've done and what you have yet to do, especially since those quests involve going to multiple areas.

Other than the above UI issues and broken dex on day 1 (that was terrible for a game this long in the making and with the PC version done many months back -> what the heck where QA doing?), I think the game is just fantastic with lots of twists on conventional fantasy and tons of choices for plot replayability.

[Sinfulvannila]

I agree with you Kyosha in that it would have been cool if there was some downside to resting all the time, or at least an option to prevent you from doing so. I truly feel that the game was intentionally designed to take advantage of that, at least on the first playthrough.

As for DA's world, I thought they did enough twists on fantasy. Dwarf and Elf society, the nature of the Darkspawn, Mages place in society, etc.

Modifié par Sinfulvannila, 19 novembre 2009 - 11:37 .

[SphereofSilence]

spernus wrote...

While they had to create characters and stories for the D&D or Star wars games,nobody is going to convince me that Bioware is the proper example of creativity.

I agree, they're the type of company that tend to take their influences from around and create something that originally doesn't come out of their own minds. They tend to use back the same formula, refine what they're good at, building upon what worked well before. It's a strategy that's been successful and has brought them to what they are today.

Still, I'm eager to see what they have in store for us for the next DA.

[SphereofSilence]

Koyasha wrote...

Even I can't say I absolutely prefer one method over the other, because at times I do enjoy the ability to have all my spells available in every fight, as I do in Dragon Age.  At other times I find myself missing having to think long-term, like I did in the Baldur's Gate series, always weighing the decision of whether to use a spell at a particular moment as opposed to saving it for a later encounter before leaving the area to rest.

I will say that I particularly do not like the fact that party members automatically come back to life at the end of the combat.  Having a party member fall in combat should not be an occasion that is of little to no consequence.  I would be much happier if there was at least a chance that they die permanently, kind of like back in Baldur's Gate where they could be 'chunked' and therefore impossible to raise.  And I really wish that injuries posed a permanent penalty of some sort, rather than one easily removed.  As a player I should never feel like having a party member fall in battle is an acceptable loss in order to win the battle, and I should be doing everything within my power to avoid it.

Now that you mention it, that's one thing I recall liking as well. Having to manage party spells in long dungeons, and being encouraged to play well to avoid deaths and injuries actually made for a challenge that was all the more rewarding once the quest was completed, standing in the midst of enemy corpses. 

Likely with all the new players coming to this type of CRPG, it would be too much for them to handle.

[Cayb]

Truthfully i have yet beat the game im actually at the Landsmeet now (have started over a few times when i got to Lothering to check out basic racial set ups) and i love it. i will play through a couple of times once each with every race.



with that said the only thing i feel missing from the game is like a tower/base building aspect. (Overlord style maybe)

[Sinfulvannila]

Character death just meant an annoying reload for me...

[GravityParade]

Im so tired of people wanting to hear the PCs voice. I think ME was sucktastic for this very reason. The dialogue options were generic, and superficial. I much prefer the script over the voice acted PC.

[DragonRageGT]

I agree with the OP and let me just say that

The good: deserves a 10/10
The bad:  reduces it 1/10

Total score:  9/10 - pretty fair!!

I'm grateful that BW keeps true to its style. When I want to play a full voiced char in a seamless 3D world with buildings that have stairs and roofs, cliffs I can jump off or climb, weapons that I can forge, ore that I can prospect, etc., there is always the amazing and beloved Nameless Hero of Gothic and now, Risen!

I don't think a fusion between Piranha Bytes and Bioware would work though.

I like very much to be able to enjoy both styles. It is just a pitty that Risen got very extremed reviews. It too deserves a 9 from me and from many serious reviewers around. And it has a great community, which, when when Gothic 3 publishers forced a bugged game into the market and cut off hands and legs of the great Piranhas, united and produced a 900 MB community patch that made G3 another Epic game. (you might not know what I'm talking about until you face a Black Troll, on the highest peak of the highest mountain!)

I have faith, based on my experience with BW games, that both Bioware and the community here will produce amazing things with Dragon Age too. And when a game, like DA, causes so many people to reach the final scene with tears in their eyes, oh man, there is the Epic written all over it!

[Demonbox1]

Agree with those above me, i do not like the "ok fight is over, and now everyone back on his feet ready to fight again" style.

more generally speaking, the game is good, but i feel something is missing, not sure yet what's related to, 'cause like i said the game is good;

like i posted in another thread maybe is just me becoming "aged"

[Aether99]

Perhaps you are a younger gamer?  A lot of your cons are opinion...The graphics sure, the games graphics are a little dated.

But silent protagonist?  opinion, I know many people who prefer a silent one, largely because they have there characters persona imagined, and dont like there immersion broken by having there character say something whether it be the words, or the inflection that is off of what they had imagined.

The lifeless animations have been around for most games like this, while it is a bit of a problem, ill take the proper voicework over fluid animation.

I havent finished the game yet, so I have no comment on how the gameworlds immersion yet

I also didnt know that not deviating far from expectations was a con, sure the game isnt groundbreaking, but it doesnt need to be, it just needs to be solid.

as far as the sidequests, I agree.  though some are better then others (the random fetch quests with almost no involving story are a bit of downers, but then, every rpg like this has had them.  Just not quite so centralized with things like the repeating npc that you get the quests from, whether it be the mages collective, or the chantry board)

[koshiee]

I agree that there's something missing. There are lot of things to nitpick and there are a lot of things they did great but somehow the whole package is missing something. To me their greatest failure was the story and the world. At the end of it I felt unsatisfied. I kept waiting for the story/world to pull me in at some point but then the game ended and that was that. It's missing that little piece of magic that made the BG series so engaging. Or maybe like another poster said I'm just getting older and what I want has changed. But for all that it did well DAO fell completely flat for me.

Modifié par koshiee, 20 novembre 2009 - 09:40 .

[SphereofSilence]

koshiee wrote...

I agree that there's something missing. There are lot of things to nitpick and there are a lot of things they did great but somehow the whole package is missing something. To me their greatest failure was the story and the world. At the end of it I felt unsatisfied. I kept waiting for the story/world to pull me in at some point but then the game ended and that was that. It's missing that little piece of magic that made the BG series so engaging. Or maybe like another poster said I'm just getting older and what I want has changed. But for all that it did well DAO fell completely flat for me.

While it didn't felt completely flat, that pretty much sums up what I felt. I expected to feel a sense of wonder and awe with the world that was created, I expected the story at the latter stages to really make me dying to see what's going to happen next,  I expected at the end of it all I would look back at the long journey, cherishing all the memories and felt 'wow, it's been truly great.' But nope, it never really came.

Perhaps one thing missing was the element of intrigue and mystery in it's story and the way it tells it. Also, unlike BW's other games, there wasn't any big shocking revelations or unexpected twists that change the way the player views what happened before. Not that it should include these if the story doesn't need it, just saying.

Still, it's a great game with a good story, and I almost did cry at the end as Alistair gave a eulogy for the PC.