124 réponses à ce sujet

[Sabariel]

PantheraOnca wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

The Qun > Eamon.

God I hate Eamon.

Now that my customary Eamon hate whenever someone mentions Redcliffe out of the way, it's always seemed to me a question of the kind of soldiers the Qun uses.
They seem to favour berserker style fighting. Strength overcoming all. Thus, men who are physically stronger are ideal for this role, while women who are considered smarter take on logistics and administration.
I imagine their style of fighting is as rigid as their beliefs, so there's little room for variation in the Antaam.

Female fighters from other cultures are probably not expected to use these same berserker tactics and have already proven themselves anyway.

maybe they have all female spec-ops squads? sounds like shiny leather sexytiiiiime!

You're thinking of asari

[Helena Tylena]

Torax wrote...

Helena Tylena wrote...

Torax wrote...

PantheraOnca wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

The Qun > Eamon.

God I hate Eamon.

Now that my customary Eamon hate whenever someone mentions Redcliffe out of the way, it's always seemed to me a question of the kind of soldiers the Qun uses.
They seem to favour berserker style fighting. Strength overcoming all. Thus, men who are physically stronger are ideal for this role, while women who are considered smarter take on logistics and administration.
I imagine their style of fighting is as rigid as their beliefs, so there's little room for variation in the Antaam.

Female fighters from other cultures are probably not expected to use these same berserker tactics and have already proven themselves anyway.

maybe they have all female spec-ops squads? sounds like shiny leather sexytiiiiime!

Bioware could go that way with Female Qunari in their forces. For example the Asari Commandos as an example for them to base it on. Plus out of any of the races. The only ones who could have Commandos that would meet such a term would be the Qunari.

Why's this? I think Leliana is pretty commando-ish in DA2.

The Qunari are the most advanced at making things like stronger ships and bombs and so on. The main reason they've held Seheron and also using things like this let them in the past fight about all of Thedas to a stand still.

I might be horribly wrong here, but I always assumed that being a commando was all about having the skill to use whatever toys you were given, rather than being given the shiniest toys...

[Sarielle]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Sarielle wrote...

Speaking of this, I've been wondering if the devs pulled this from the French "en bas" which, among other things, means "below." As in, the bas are beneath the Qunari.

It translates to thing.

In the Qunari language, you mean? That doesn't surprise me, lol.

[Helena Tylena]

Sabariel wrote...

PantheraOnca wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

The Qun > Eamon.

God I hate Eamon.

Now that my customary Eamon hate whenever someone mentions Redcliffe out of the way, it's always seemed to me a question of the kind of soldiers the Qun uses.
They seem to favour berserker style fighting. Strength overcoming all. Thus, men who are physically stronger are ideal for this role, while women who are considered smarter take on logistics and administration.
I imagine their style of fighting is as rigid as their beliefs, so there's little room for variation in the Antaam.

Female fighters from other cultures are probably not expected to use these same berserker tactics and have already proven themselves anyway.

maybe they have all female spec-ops squads? sounds like shiny leather sexytiiiiime!

You're thinking of asari

Qunari, Asari, no real difference.

Apart, you know, from the 'Qun' and 'As' bits...

[Rifneno]

savagesparrow wrote...

I don't think they retconn'd it--When I went to challenge the Arishok to a duel he was all like, "I can't fight you, you're a woman!" but then Fenris said that he had declared me 'bas-alite-aan" (or however that's spelled), which made me "no longer a woman", and therefore ok to fight. Though he didn't make this protest when I challenged him to a duel for Isabela in a later playthrough, but whatevs...

Except Sten harps on femWarden about how "you can't change what you are."  Not that I'm complaining about the difference.  The only part of qunari culture I pay attention to is how they cry when they're bleeding.  It's a pretty funny sound, like a sheep with laryngitis giving birth.

[The Angry One]

savagesparrow wrote...

I don't think they retconn'd it--When I went to challenge the Arishok to a duel he was all like, "I can't fight you, you're a woman!" but then Fenris said that he had declared me 'bas-alite-aan" (or however that's spelled), which made me "no longer a woman", and therefore ok to fight. Though he didn't make this protest when I challenged him to a duel for Isabela in a later playthrough, but whatevs...

I've never gotten this, so I don't know.
But again, the Qun operates through denial. The Arishok can use a tecnicality to instantly declare someone "no longer a woman" so I can see the Qun looking over Aveline and Hawke if they converted, declaring them "no longer women" (for the purposes of the Qunari census or whatever) and going "continue fighting".

[The Angry One]

Rifneno wrote...

savagesparrow wrote...

I don't think they retconn'd it--When I went to challenge the Arishok to a duel he was all like, "I can't fight you, you're a woman!" but then Fenris said that he had declared me 'bas-alite-aan" (or however that's spelled), which made me "no longer a woman", and therefore ok to fight. Though he didn't make this protest when I challenged him to a duel for Isabela in a later playthrough, but whatevs...

Except Sten harps on femWarden about how "you can't change what you are."  Not that I'm complaining about the difference.  The only part of qunari culture I pay attention to is how they cry when they're bleeding.  It's a pretty funny sound, like a sheep with laryngitis giving birth.

YOU can't.
The Qun can.

This is why I consider the Qun the most dishonest society in existence, every single thing they say can be wriggled out of with a technicality or a lie of omission.

[Shorinjikan]

Helena Tylena wrote...
I might be horribly wrong here, but I always assumed that being a commando was all about having the skill to use whatever toys you were given, rather than being given the shiniest toys...

As I understand, it's actually about running up and down with a bergen whilst wearing a different hat.

[Helena Tylena]

Shorinjikan wrote...

Helena Tylena wrote...
I might be horribly wrong here, but I always assumed that being a commando was all about having the skill to use whatever toys you were given, rather than being given the shiniest toys...

As I understand, it's actually about running up and down with a bergen whilst wearing a different hat.

And that. Verrry important.

[Torax]

The Angry One wrote...

savagesparrow wrote...

I don't think they retconn'd it--When I went to challenge the Arishok to a duel he was all like, "I can't fight you, you're a woman!" but then Fenris said that he had declared me 'bas-alite-aan" (or however that's spelled), which made me "no longer a woman", and therefore ok to fight. Though he didn't make this protest when I challenged him to a duel for Isabela in a later playthrough, but whatevs...

I've never gotten this, so I don't know.
But again, the Qun operates through denial. The Arishok can use a tecnicality to instantly declare someone "no longer a woman" so I can see the Qun looking over Aveline and Hawke if they converted, declaring them "no longer women" (for the purposes of the Qunari census or whatever) and going "continue fighting".

Maybe I've just not taken Fenris with me when I've seen the Arishok. But he's always offered the duel that I remember. I'll get his respect and then take Fenris next. I just doubt it changes it. I thought Fenris only interjects though if respect is not completed.

Edited to add.

Maybe he also only has to interject if Isabela ran off so the Arishok will not duel over her at all. He instead duels to leave without killing all his men.

Modifié par Torax, 10 avril 2011 - 12:57 .

[The Angry One]

I've taken Fenris with respect and the Arishok just duels me, nothing else said.

[Shorinjikan]

The Angry One wrote...

I've taken Fenris with respect and the Arishok just duels me, nothing else said.

Well I believe I was declared an "honoured outsider", or some such bull****.

[Torax]

Shorinjikan wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

I've taken Fenris with respect and the Arishok just duels me, nothing else said.

Well I believe I was declared an "honoured outsider", or some such bull****.

Did isabela run off with the book?

[_Aine_]

Camenae wrote...

I wonder what the Qun would do with Aveline.

Aveline probably would have grown up differently so have NOT ended up being a warrior   Sounds to me like they are routed into skillfully careers while they are still young.  It isn't so much that there may be the odd woman who is capable of fighting, it is rather that they plan by the majority and route them into the area within those boundaries that the individual would be best in.  

I really do think they think they are being practical and pragmatic rather than biased and bigoted.  

If you EARN respect by being a great fighter, they GIVE you 100% that respect.  None of the other qunari fight you once you have a dual, or the respect.    There were plenty of times they could swarm and kill you easily, but don't.  

They honor those who prove themselves worthy by deed, but train based on general probability rather than the genetic exceptions.  Strong, hearty women to them would likely be better to keep healthy for having babies than running around getting their heads cut off.  Warrior as a job likely doesn't have the best life expectancy.  

I think they WOULD expect women and men to defend what is theirs  --- running out to conquer the world?  More prone to likely ends i would say.  

[Shorinjikan]

Torax wrote...
Did isabela run off with the book?

That's it.  She ran off, (I can't believe I couldn't try and stab her as she ran off "to stop him getting away") when we went to get the book.  I told the arishok she'd stolen the book again and gone.


(After murdering somebody I might add, but then DA2 combat involves the wholesale slaughter of half of Thedas anyway.)

[PantheraOnca]

The Angry One wrote...

YOU can't.
The Qun can.

This is why I consider the Qun the most dishonest society in existence, every single thing they say can be wriggled out of with a technicality or a lie of omission.

So the qun is full of lawyers?

[theangryllama]

The Angry One wrote...

I've taken Fenris with respect and the Arishok just duels me, nothing else said.

Yep, my warrior playthrough went to the arishok first with fenris, then went to him first with everything (after you talk to javaris, tell him his envoy is missing after you find out) don't burn the bodies and go talk to him afterwards and you will get the respect achievement. At that point even if you don't have fenris he will offer to duel you over bella and no honor guard fight.
As a side note to the boat thing. I think its an omission type thing. He is waiting for another boat, the qunari however know that another boat isn't coming until he has fulfilled the duty to the qun he is there to do. 

[Torax]

Shorinjikan wrote...

Torax wrote...
Did isabela run off with the book?

That's it.  She ran off, (I can't believe I couldn't try and stab her as she ran off "to stop him getting away") when we went to get the book.  I told the arishok she'd stolen the book again and gone.


(After murdering somebody I might add, but then DA2 combat involves the wholesale slaughter of half of Thedas anyway.)

That why. Not only did he not respect you. Isabela didn't return to force the duel. Next time if you got him to respect you? Then he would have just dueled you either way without Fenris' input.

Furthermore he would refuse to duel a male hawke at the same instance.

Modifié par Torax, 10 avril 2011 - 01:10 .

[Sabariel]

Torax wrote...

Shorinjikan wrote...

Torax wrote...
Did isabela run off with the book?

That's it.  She ran off, (I can't believe I couldn't try and stab her as she ran off "to stop him getting away") when we went to get the book.  I told the arishok she'd stolen the book again and gone.


(After murdering somebody I might add, but then DA2 combat involves the wholesale slaughter of half of Thedas anyway.)

That why. Not only did he not respect you. Isabela didn't return to force the duel. Next time if you got him to respect you? Then he would have just dueled you either way without Fenris' input.

Furthermore he would refuse to duel a male hawke at the same instance.

Edit: Never mind. I can't read

Modifié par Sabariel, 10 avril 2011 - 02:02 .

[savagesparrow]

Yeah, from what I remember Isabela had taken the book, but I said that I had no idea where it was (which is true, because who knows where she went), and then I can't really remember what happened but I suggested we duel it out (I think) and then he said "Pfft, that dude's a lady and I don't fight ladies" which is when Fen interjected with his thing. He did call me 'basaleetahn(sp??' at the very beginning of the convo though, so I have no idea if that means he respected me or not, but that's probably why Fen said, "By your own admission, Hawk is this thing instead of a lady".

But, in my second playthrough when Isabela did return there was no mention of his objections to my lady parts at all, so what's up with that?

[Shorinjikan]

Torax wrote...
Not only did he not respect you.

Yet he did - he respected my straightforwardness.  All this aside, the point is it provides insight into how senior followers of the Qun regard women & outsiders.

Like sten said, women can't be warriors.  If they are warriors, they are no longer women - they are warriors.  Sten changes his opinion, but that is not really the Qun.  It is the result of his continued close contact and soul searching with teh warden.

[Torax]

Shorinjikan wrote...

Torax wrote...
Not only did he not respect you.

Yet he did - he respected my straightforwardness.  All this aside, the point is it provides insight into how senior followers of the Qun regard women & outsiders.

Like sten said, women can't be warriors.  If they are warriors, they are no longer women - they are warriors.  Sten changes his opinion, but that is not really the Qun.  It is the result of his continued close contact and soul searching with teh warden.

No you see Respect as the game mechanic deams you did not earn it. It's very specific track of conversations to get his respect. Which also grants an achievement. The fact that he didn't challenge you from the start proves you did not earn it. Period!

Main Rule. Never lie to the Arishok. He will know.

Step 1. Bring Fenris for your first meeting with the Arishok.
Step 2. Mention that you were promised Future Profits at the first meeting.
Step 3. Report the deaths of Arvaarad & Saarebas to the Arishok. I'd suggest turning Katejon over to Arvaarad.
Step 4. Report  the missing Qunari Delegates to the Arishok.
Step 5. Tell the Viscount not to hide the torture on the bodies.
Step 6. Do "To Catch a Thief" first.
Step 7. Report the deaths of the Delegates to the Arishok. Do not lie about the Torture. (During the Shaemus talk).
Step 8. Tell the Arishok that Isabela stole the book. (During the face off with Aveline).

Now at some point between 7 & 8 you'll have earned his respect fully and he should challenge you to do a duel no matter if your male or female or even if Isabela doesn't come back. But if she left it meant you failed to get a Friendship/Rivalry over 50 anyway. Which is your own fault.

Modifié par Torax, 10 avril 2011 - 11:41 .

[AlexXIV]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

In Origins Sten was perplexed how a female Warden or any of the female NPCd could fight. Now I've also learned this seems to be less from a beleif that women can't fight, but rather that being a professional fighter is not a role that they have in the Qun. Sten is actually aghast at the idea of women not fighting in a desperate situation if you take him to Redcliffe.

But Ketojin mentions that "your role would change little if you embraced the Qun" to a male or female Hawke. And The Arishok doesn't mention that female warriors are unsual to you that I recall. Even though he wouldn't have expected it to be the case in Kirkwall, I would have imagined he'd be a little surprised to find the most capable enemy in Kirkwall was someone who likley didn't match up to what he'd might expect to be the case based on his experiecne back in Par Vollen.

Bioware screwed up. That's the short answer. The qunari mage gave that line to my female mage Hawke and I was like 'Yeah right, I guess that was what you wanted to tell my male non-mage Hawke'.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 10 avril 2011 - 12:02 .

[Snowbug]

Torax wrote...

No you see Respect as the game mechanic deams you did not earn it. It's very specific track of conversations to get his respect. Which also grants an achievement. The fact that he didn't challenge you from the start proves you did not earn it. Period!

Main Rule. Never lie to the Arishok. He will know.

Step 1. Bring Fenris for your first meeting with the Arishok.
Step 2. Mention that you were promised Future Profits at the first meeting.
Step 3. Report the deaths of Arvaarad & Saarebas to the Arishok. I'd suggest turning Katejon over to Arvaarad.
Step 4. Report  the missing Qunari Delegates to the Arishok.
Step 5. Tell the Viscount not to hide the torture on the bodies.
Step 6. Do "To Catch a Thief" first.
Step 7. Report the deaths of the Delegates to the Arishok. Do not lie about the Torture. (During the Shaemus talk).
Step 8. Tell the Arishok that Isabela stole the book. (During the face off with Aveline).

Now at some point between 7 & 8 you'll have earned his respect fully and he should challenge you to do a duel no matter if your male or female or even if Isabela doesn't come back. But if she left it meant you failed to get a Friendship/Rivalry over 50 anyway. Which is your own fault.

The Arishok called my female Hawke basalit-an, and went on about how he respected her to the assembled terrified audience. I got the achievement. When the arishok asked how Hawke thinks this situation should be solved, she suggested there should be some way to work it out. Arishok said it was past the time for words. Fenris intercepted and said by the Qun law, Hawke had the right to challenge the Arishok to a duel. Arishok said that if Fenris really knew the Qun, he would not suggest a duel with a female. Fenris said that Hawke was not really a female, as the arishok himself had named her a "respected outsider." After this the Arishok asked if Hawke agreed to the duel.

Edited to add: I just replayed the scene without Fenris in party (with the same character, just booted Fenris out of the party in advance), and this time the Arishok challenged Hawke on his own. So the above dialogue happens the way it happens only because Fenris is in the party.

Modifié par Snowbug, 10 avril 2011 - 12:43 .

[yoshibb]

That dialogue with Fenris will also not happen if Isabela comes back. I wish it always did, it makes more sense that way.