124 réponses à ce sujet

[Torax]

So in other words only happens if Hawke is female. Isabela runs off with the Tome and Fenris is in your party? It's so easy to get Isabela to stay I have no reason to get her to run off.

[22nd MadJack]

 The entire Dragon Age series has been sterilised regarding any mistreatment of women. 

It's utterly childish.

Case and point;

Male Dwarven Noble: "Who is my next opponent?"

Proving Master: "Adal Helmi. A... a woman, your Highness. She's a tenacious fighter." (VO: Hesitant, speaker seems afraid to say this.)

1. I'll fight anyone.
2. You let a woman fight in the Proving in my honor?

Proving Master: "It was not my idea. Lady Helmi was most insistent. I did not expect her to actually win her first match. Will you fight her?" (VO: Speaker is trying not to push blame around.)

2a. If I have to.
2b. Why not? Should be easy.
2c. No. I'm done with this Proving.

Proving Master: "Please forgive me, your Highness. I never meant to cause offense." (SET: Provings_Offended) *End dialogue*

3. Yes, but I must rest first.


When the match begins:

Adal Helmi: "Honor and glory to your house, your Highness." (VO: Respectful)

1. There is no honor in fighting a woman.
2. And to yours.
3. I'm going to slaughter you.

(IF: Victory) Proving Master: "That was a crowd-pleaser. Many were waiting to see that woman put in her place."

Can you imagine similar dialog in DA2?  Of course not.  You are allowed to be a murdering bastard, but under no circumstances are you allowed to be a misogynist.

Modifié par 22nd MadJack, 10 avril 2011 - 01:41 .

[Plaintiff]

22nd MadJack wrote...

 The entire Dragon Age series has been sterilised regarding any mistreatment of women. 

It's utterly childish.

Case and point;

Male Dwarven Noble: "Who is my next opponent?"

Proving Master: "Adal Helmi. A... a woman, your Highness. She's a tenacious fighter." (VO: Hesitant, speaker seems afraid to say this.)

1. I'll fight anyone.
2. You let a woman fight in the Proving in my honor?

Proving Master: "It was not my idea. Lady Helmi was most insistent. I did not expect her to actually win her first match. Will you fight her?" (VO: Speaker is trying not to push blame around.)

2a. If I have to.
2b. Why not? Should be easy.
2c. No. I'm done with this Proving.

Proving Master: "Please forgive me, your Highness. I never meant to cause offense." (SET: Provings_Offended) *End dialogue*

3. Yes, but I must rest first.


When the match begins:

Adal Helmi: "Honor and glory to your house, your Highness." (VO: Respectful)

1. There is no honor in fighting a woman.
2. And to yours.
3. I'm going to slaughter you.

(IF: Victory) Proving Master: "That was a crowd-pleaser. Many were waiting to see that woman put in her place."

Can you imagine similar dialog in DA2?  Of course not.  You are allowed to be a murdering bastard, but under no circumstances are you allowed to be a misogynist.

That's only in the Dwarven Noble Origin. Where else do such opportunities crop up? I can't think of any. Origins makes a point of the fact that women in Thedas are allowed to rule, fight alongside men, or do pretty much whatever the hell they want within the bounds of the law. You can't complain that DA2 is trying to be girl-friendly when Origins had scant few opportunities for sexist douchebaggery to begin with.

Just one question, though. If it's "childish" to remove opprotunities for sexism, does it then follow that sexism is a sign of maturity?

Modifié par Plaintiff, 10 avril 2011 - 02:46 .

[Torax]

Apparently it was Childish in Origins when Orlais recognized Ser Aveline as being the first female Chavilier after her death of course. I mean how dare they let women into their ranks long before the start of Origins. There was only a handful of points when there was Sexism in Origins and those rare cases didn't make the game more Mature. Could argue that sexism just for sexism's sake does nothing for a story. Could argue some of it still existed in Dragon Age 2. Velasco is one example depending on how you handle turning Isabela over to him.

There is the occasional "B" word directed at females. Could say that is sexism. Though my favorite in a while was when someone on the forums tried to say that the way female hawke walks was sexist or objectification of women. But many female posters disagreed.

[Wulfram]

Dragon Age has always been a bit inconsistent about how common female warriors are. Contrast Ostagar, where there are plenty of female warriors about, with Redcliffe where all the women are expected to hide in the chantry, while men who are reluctant to fight are painted as cowards.

[22nd MadJack]

Plaintiff wrote...

That's only in the Dwarven Noble Origin. Where else do such opportunities crop up? I can't think of any. Origins makes a point of the fact that women in Thedas are allowed to rule, fight alongside men, or do pretty much whatever the hell they want within the bounds of the law. You can't complain that DA2 is trying to be girl-friendly when Origins had scant few opportunities for sexist douchebaggery to begin with.

Just one question, though. If it's "childish" to remove opprotunities for sexism, does it then follow that sexism is a sign of maturity?

In removing sexism, we are being treated as children.  It is not mature to be sexist, it is mature to acknowledge that however wrong sexism is, it existed, and does exist today.  It is mature to address its existence within a fictional context.  The exclusion of such offensive themes is an aspect of children's literature.  Its inclusion is an aspect of Adult literature, for example A Song of Ice and Fire (the very series this world is based on).  Now, are you or are you not an Adult capable of dealing with sexism?

'Allowed' is a far cry from 'expected'.  Take the Human Noble Origin for example.  As a female, your combat prowess is treated as exception, not expectation.  Assumed gender roles existed, regardless of what the law may or may not say.

A last note, my partner enjoys killing misogynists much more than generic slavers.  She cites that cutting Bann Vaughan's head off was more satisfying that slaying the archdemon itself.  She further suggests; what is more girl friendly than the maiming of misogyny?

Modifié par 22nd MadJack, 10 avril 2011 - 03:22 .

[Plaintiff]

22nd MadJack wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

That's only in the Dwarven Noble Origin. Where else do such opportunities crop up? I can't think of any. Origins makes a point of the fact that women in Thedas are allowed to rule, fight alongside men, or do pretty much whatever the hell they want within the bounds of the law. You can't complain that DA2 is trying to be girl-friendly when Origins had scant few opportunities for sexist douchebaggery to begin with.

Just one question, though. If it's "childish" to remove opprotunities for sexism, does it then follow that sexism is a sign of maturity?

In removing sexism, we are being treated as children.  It is not mature to be sexist, it is mature to acknowledge that however wrong sexism is, it existed, and does exist today.  It is mature to address its existence within a fictional context.  The exclusion of such offensive themes is an aspect of children's literature.  Its inclusion is an aspect of Adult literature, for example A Song of Ice and Fire (the very series this world is based on).  Now, are you or are you not an Adult capable of dealing with sexism?

'Allowed' is a far cry from 'expected'.  Take the Human Noble Origin for example.  As a female, your combat prowess is treated as exception, not expectation.  Assumed gender roles existed, regardless of what the law may or may not say.

A last note, my partner enjoys killing misogynists much more than generic slavers.  She cites that cutting Bann Vaughan's head off was more satisfying that slaying the archdemon itself.

Thedas is based far more heavily on real-world culture than any fantasy series. It would be more accurate to say that A Song of Ice and Fire is one of many sources of inspiration. And even if it is, they're not required to mimic every aspect of the fictitious society presented within. Indeed, I'm fairly certain copyright law forbids it. Failing to show misogyny does not mean they've retconned it out of the world, it just means they didn't show it.

Failing to display explicit sexism also does not mean you're not addressing it. You can address an issue in a fictional setting just as (if not more effectively) by providing an alternative viewpoint. If I write a fantasy series where it is mentioned as an aside, or otherwise shown that homosexual relationships are considered common and acceptable, I am still making a comment on homophobia without needing to write in a homophobic character.

[Torax]

 Here is an amusing one. He's a little too excited if you ask me. Specially if one of them is his Niece.

Gamlen...

[22nd MadJack]

Plaintiff wrote...

Thedas is based far more heavily on real-world culture than any fantasy series.  It would be more accurate to say that A Song of Ice and Fire is one of many sources of inspiration. And even if it is, they're not required to mimic every aspect of the fictitious society presented within. Indeed, I'm fairly certain copyright law forbids it. Failing to show misogyny does not mean they've retconned it out of the world, it just means they didn't show it.

Sexism, incest, murder, rape and underage marriage are not copyrighted.  I never said they were required to mimic Westeros right down to the last grassy knoll (although in a great many aspects they did).  They are not required to do anything except be consistent, which they are not.  Consistency is the essence of what makes a fantasy world believable, without it ... well mages can then teleport when it was stated they could not.

Plaintiff wrote...

Failing to display explicit sexism also does not mean you're not addressing it. You can address an issue in a fictional setting just as (if not more effectively) by providing an alternative viewpoint. If I write a fantasy series where it is mentioned as an aside, or otherwise shown that homosexual relationships are considered common and acceptable, I am still making a comment on homophobia without needing to write in a homophobic character.

I suppose we will have to disagree on what constitutes as 'addressing' which, in my view, is more of an in depth confrontation than a simple token piece of dialog.  What precisely is wrong with a homophobic character?  Excuse me while I blur clearly drawn lines, but character faults are what make a character.  Adult fiction is full of characters with such questionable faults, yet, can have better traits in equal measure.  Jaime and Sandor Clegane leap to mind.



I like my lines blurred, I like my preconceptions assaulted.  If I can suddenly sympathise with a murdering sexist (and more besides) such as Jaime, then that is the definitive mark of sound writing.  Something that won't happen if you 'gloss over' or 'omit' in case you offend.  A writer must remember that human beings are not good, and they are not evil.  They are always something in between.

How about this; sexism exists in the quantity it did in Origins, except that since all is told by Varric, its exclusion is
one of his many 'embellishments'. 

 

Modifié par 22nd MadJack, 10 avril 2011 - 04:06 .

[The Angry One]

Oh shut the hell up, Madjack. There are many regions in Thedas where there is little to no sexism.

In Origins, Redcliffe was sexist, Orzammar was slowly changing it's attitude (you do know that a female dwarf noble can fight in the Provings if she wants to just fine?) Denerim and Gwaren are not. Cailan and Loghain include many female fighters, Loghain makes a point that you should never be told you can't fight because you're a woman.

DA2 takes place entirely in Kirkwall, a city-state that happens to not be sexist. Get over it.
This is a fantasy world, this is not Earth. It doesn't follow Earth history, so why should it follow it's obsolete and irrelevant patriarcal patterns?

[22nd MadJack]

The Angry One wrote...

Oh shut the hell up, Madjack. There are many regions in Thedas where there is little to no sexism.

In Origins, Redcliffe was sexist, Orzammar was slowly changing it's attitude (you do know that a female dwarf noble can fight in the Provings if she wants to just fine?) Denerim and Gwaren are not. Cailan and Loghain include many female fighters, Loghain makes a point that you should never be told you can't fight because you're a woman.

Since I now know I am touching a nerve, I am less likely to shut up.

1.  The Proving master is not likely do decline your request to fight.  You are a princess for god's sake.
2.  Denerim, City Elf Origin, Bann Vaughan, massive sexist.
3.  Cailan, well, he's his father's son.  Loghain's view could arguably be defined by his experiences with Ser Cauthrien.  And that's fine.

The Angry One wrote...
DA2 takes place entirely in Kirkwall, a city-state that happens to not be sexist. Get over it.
This is a fantasy world, this is not Earth. It doesn't follow Earth history, so why should it follow it's obsolete and irrelevant patriarcal patterns?

Why should it not?  My belief is that doing so will greatly enhance the series.  I had already established that upon entering Kirkwall you are miraculously cleansed of all repressive persuasions.  Except for the poor, mages and elves of course.

Modifié par 22nd MadJack, 10 avril 2011 - 04:41 .

[The Angry One]

22nd MadJack wrote...

Since I now know I am touching a nerve, I am less likely to shut up.

Closet misogynists never do.

1.  The Proving master is not likely do decline your request to fight.  You are a princess for god's sake.

Do the crowd boo you? No.
In fact there are as many in the crowd elated to see women kicking ass and taking names as there are flea-ridden oafs who want women back in the kitchen.

2.  Denerim, City Elf Origin, Bann Vaughan, massive sexist.

Because one Bann's son = the entire city.

3.  Loghains view could arguably be defined by his experiences with Ser Cauthrien.  And that's fine.

Irrelevant. The point is, he has this view, and that's how he runs his Teyrnir.

Why should it not?  My belief is that doing so will greatly enhance the series.  I had already established that upon entering Kirkwall you are miraculously cleansed of all repressive persuasions.  Except for the poor, mages and elves of course.

Dragon Age has it's own prejudices and troubles without lifting everything from real life history.
There is sexism in some reasons, and not in others. Thedas happens to not have a history of patriarchal socities that treat women as property and teach that women are sinful and weak. Again, not every society is going to be the same as ours.

Edit: And frankly, those fantasy worlds that do follow this pattern are by authors with.. limited imagination.

Modifié par The Angry One, 10 avril 2011 - 04:46 .

[Torax]

If you want a game "enhanced" by sexism and other juvenile fantasies wait for Duke Nukem later this year. But that is the teenage mindset to want that kind of trash to make their game better. No game needs that unless they are aiming for the lowest I.Q. idiots who just want to see breasts and women half naked most the time. There is no point in a game where I watched men mocking or belittling women around them and thought "Wow that totally made the game better."

Go and mull that over for a while.

[22nd MadJack]

The Angry One wrote...
Closet misogynists never do.

 I was patiently waiting for the inevitable accusation.  The rebuke I had lined up was; "If I wish there to be blood in a game, that must make me a masochist."  Which of course, it doesn't (unless the game is Hello Kitty or such). 

The Angry One wrote...

Do the crowd boo you? No.
In fact there are as many in the crowd elated to see women kicking ass and taking names as there are flea-ridden oafs who want women back in the kitchen.

I do not understand.  Why do you think I think this is a bad thing?  The Eowyn archetype is one of my preffered characters to play.  To be an exception, to rise against repression.  It is a wonderful well from which to draw stories.  In Dragon Age 2, that well is dry.

The Angry One wrote...

Because one Bann's son = the entire city.

 
I am not interested in the city, I am interested in characters that we encounter within it.

The Angry One wrote...
Irrelevant. The point is, he has this view, and that's how he runs his Teyrnir.

 
Logains characterisation is irrelevant, or the fact that I like it is irrelevant?

The Angry One wrote...

Dragon Age has it's own prejudices and troubles without lifting everything from real life history.
There is sexism in some reasons, and not in others. Thedas happens to not have a history of patriarchal socities that treat women as property and teach that women are sinful and weak. Again, not every society is going to be the same as ours.

Edit: And frankly, those fantasy worlds that do follow this pattern are by authors with.. limited imagination.

Prejudices and troubles which derive from our society.  Slavery, racism, witchcraft, fundimentalism, the rich/poor divide.  I don't yet follow where you are on the bench.  Do you want dark themes such as those we discuss? 

Modifié par 22nd MadJack, 10 avril 2011 - 05:14 .

[Girl on a Rock]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

In Origins Sten was perplexed how a female Warden or any of the female NPCd could fight. Now I've also learned this seems to be less from a beleif that women can't fight, but rather that being a professional fighter is not a role that they have in the Qun. Sten is actually aghast at the idea of women not fighting in a desperate situation if you take him to Redcliffe.

But Ketojin mentions that "your role would change little if you embraced the Qun" to a male or female Hawke. And The Arishok doesn't mention that female warriors are unsual to you that I recall. Even though he wouldn't have expected it to be the case in Kirkwall, I would have imagined he'd be a little surprised to find the most capable enemy in Kirkwall was someone who likley didn't match up to what he'd might expect to be the case based on his experiecne back in Par Vollen.

I think - and I could be mistaken about this, because it was on my first playthrough, I think - but I think that if Isabela doesn't come back and save your ass with the book, but Fenris is with you and brings up the idea of single combat, the Arishok is like NO WAY DUDE SHE'S A LADY I CAN'T FIGHT NO LADY and Fenris is like WHATEVS DUDE YOU ALREADY SAID SHE WAS A [Qunari word for respected person or something] SO SHE'S TOTALLY NOT A LADY AND YOU CAN FIGHT HER and then the Arishok was like OH WORD and then he impaled my rogue on his sword about a hundred times before I remembered to summon her dog and have her use inconspicuous.

True story (I think)!

[The Angry One]

22nd MadJack wrote...

 I was patiently waiting for the inevitable accusation.  The rebuke I had lined up was; "If I wish there to be blood in a game, that must make me a masochist."  Which of course, it doesn't. 

Start making arguments that blood is essential and the story suffers without masses of blood at any given moment and you may just be.

I do not understand.  Why do you think I think this is a bad thing?  The Eowyn archetype is one of my preffered characters to play.  To be an exception, to rise against repression.  It is a wonderful well from which to draw stories.  In Dragon Age 2, that well is dry.

It's a bad thing in Dragon Age, because that's not how the world is written. There are some regions with sexism and some without, it is not widespread or accepted.

I am not interested in the city, I am interested in characters that we encounter within it.

And Vaughn is one character who aside from being sexist is also a rapist, a bully, a spoiled daddy's boy and a moron.

Logains characterisation is irrelevant, or the fact that I like it is irrelevant?

That he doesn't NEED a reason to feel this way.
It may be because of Cauthrien, or it may be because he was never taught that women are weak and must be subjigated by men.

Prejudices and troubles which derive from our society.  Slavery, racism, witchcraft, fundimentalism, the rich/poor divide.  I don't yet follow where you are on the bench.  Do you want dark themes such as those we discuss?

My point is, Dragon Age has darkness and prejudice and the ability to draw from those to create drama without including sexism.
Like has been said, if DA followed all real life prejudices, then mages would all be killed at birth; in real life Catholicism magic and witchcraft are the work of Satan.

[Maria Caliban]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Was the Qun retconed regarding women?

No.

[JabbaDaHutt30]

The Angry One wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

savagesparrow wrote...

I don't think they retconn'd it--When I went to challenge the Arishok to a duel he was all like, "I can't fight you, you're a woman!" but then Fenris said that he had declared me 'bas-alite-aan" (or however that's spelled), which made me "no longer a woman", and therefore ok to fight. Though he didn't make this protest when I challenged him to a duel for Isabela in a later playthrough, but whatevs...

Except Sten harps on femWarden about how "you can't change what you are."  Not that I'm complaining about the difference.  The only part of qunari culture I pay attention to is how they cry when they're bleeding.  It's a pretty funny sound, like a sheep with laryngitis giving birth.

YOU can't.
The Qun can.

This is why I consider the Qun the most dishonest society in existence, every single thing they say can be wriggled out of with a technicality or a lie of omission.

that seems to be BioWare's stance on Dragon Age's lore too. Correlation, perhaps?

[22nd MadJack]

The Angry One wrote...
Start making arguments that blood is essential and the story suffers without masses of blood at any given moment and you may just be.

You have your opinion.  Mine is that a writer worth his salt will not shy away from conflict.  Unless of course that conflict is considered too 'adult' for the intended audience.

The Angry One wrote...
It's a bad thing in Dragon Age, because that's not how the world is written. There are some regions with sexism and some without, it is not widespread or accepted.

You are seemly so angry you do not realise we actually agree.  

The Angry One wrote...
And Vaughn is one character who aside from being sexist is also a rapist, a bully, a spoiled daddy's boy and a moron.

Sexism makes him all the more satisfying to behead.

The Angry One wrote...

That he doesn't NEED a reason to feel this way.
It may be because of Cauthrien, or it may be because he was never taught that women are weak and must be subjigated by men.

A person is a product of their upbringing.  A child is not brought into the world magicaly imbued with universal tolerance and kindness.  Of course Loghain needs a reason to feel the way he does.  More often than not it is the gift of great parenting.

The Angry One wrote...
My point is, Dragon Age has darkness and prejudice and the ability to draw from those to create drama without including sexism.

It does, where did I say it didn't?  Where did I say sexism was essential?  I didn't.  I said that its inclusion is benificial in creating conflict.  I said its exlusion was inconsistent with Origins.  It insinuated that either they were afraid of offending, or they just couldn't be arsed creating a different experience depending on the Gender of Hawke.

Modifié par 22nd MadJack, 10 avril 2011 - 05:42 .

[The Angry One]

22nd MadJack wrote...

You have your opinion.  Mine is that a writer worth his salt will not shy away from conflict.  Unless of course that conflict is considered too 'adult' for the intended audience.

There *is* conflict.
You just appear to want more conflict for the sake of that alone even though it doesn't fit in this world.

You are seemly so angry you do not realise we actually agree. 

And if we agree, what is your problem? DA2 doesn't take place over an entire country, just one city, and there's no reason why a cosmopolitan city-state should have the same level of sexism as, say, a village run by an old hobo of an Arl.

Sexism makes him all the more satisfying to behead.

Personally raping my character's cousin and generally being a fool was enough for me.

A person is a product of their upbringing.  A child is not brought into the world magical imbued with universal tolerance and kindness.  Of course Loghain needs a reason to feel the way he does.  More often than not it is the gift of great parenting.

Loghain is not universally tolerant in the slightest. He is simply a product of the reality of this world, in which women are not coddled and subjigated everywhere.

It does, where did I say it didn't?  Where did I say sexism was essential?  I didn't.  I said that it's inclusion is benificial in creating conflict.  I said it's exlusion was inconsistent with Origins.  It insinuated that either they were afraid of offending, or they just couldn't be arsed creating a difference experience depending on the Gender of Hawke.

And I'm saying it's not inconsistent at all. There were few regions in DA:O with outright sexism, which wasn't present in the major cities as an institution. Even in Orzammar there are mixed views. Women are allowed in the Provings despite complaints of some, many do support them, there are women in the Legion of the Dead and Bhelen makes a compelling argument about support for a female "King" if you are a female dwarf noble. He's manipulating you, but if his argument had no basis it wouldn't be very convincing.
The only outright example of sexism (with regards to fighting alone) is Redcliffe, a relatively small Arldom.

Modifié par The Angry One, 10 avril 2011 - 05:46 .

[Aldandil]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Was the Qun retconed regarding women?

No.

This will teach people not to ask yes or no questions about the Qun.

[Torax]

Aldandil wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Was the Qun retconed regarding women?

No.

This will teach people not to ask yes or no questions about the Qun.

Yes

[Addai]

22nd MadJack wrote...

I like my lines blurred, I like my preconceptions assaulted.  If I can suddenly sympathise with a murdering sexist (and more besides) such as Jaime, then that is the definitive mark of sound writing.  Something that won't happen if you 'gloss over' or 'omit' in case you offend.  A writer must remember that human beings are not good, and they are not evil.  They are always something in between.

How about this; sexism exists in the quantity it did in Origins, except that since all is told by Varric, its exclusion is
one of his many 'embellishments'. 

 

I think you have a point.  I preferred it as it was in Origins, where female soldiers were present but few and far between.  It made those who had excelled, such as Cauthrien, all the more memorable and sympathetic.  It seems that they decided this did not represent canon, however, because even as of Awakening you saw female templars whereas there were none in Origins.  Now you are just as likely to see a female guardsman or soldier as male.  I guess the writers like it better that way, or they're responding to perceived marketing/ social pressure, who knows.

[22nd MadJack]

The Angry One wrote...
There *is* conflict.
You just appear to want more conflict for the sake of that alone even though it doesn't fit in this world.

... Doesn't fit?  You are quick to come up with examples of sexism in Origins yet you say it doesn't fit in the world?  I will not believe that the design team took the decision to remove sexism because whoever originally designed the world gave specific details of Kirkwall's pristine gender equality.  Far more believable is that, as I said, the design team felt that varying encounters by gender was not 'streamlined' enough, and/or they didn't want to shock us kids.

If DA3 has dialog options similar to my original post, then you will be right and I will gladly eat my hat.  But if DA2 is any indication of the sterlised/streamlined direction they are taking the series, then you will not see their like again.

If we ever return to redcliffe I wouldn't be surprised if half the milita has sprouted breasts and nobody seems to notice a difference.

Modifié par 22nd MadJack, 10 avril 2011 - 06:09 .