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Family Life (Or Lack Thereof)


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#1
Lethys1

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There are many flaws with the story of the game such as ridiculous dialog choices, the lack of a decent straight male romance option, the inability to truly control anything that happens in the story, the inability of the game to recognize that you are in fact a mage, the poorly written companions who only complain CONSTANTLY, not a lot of interaction with aforementioned companions, and the inability of all NPC mages besides Anders to resist blood magic (but he's an abomination anyway, also he's an ****).

But this thread doesn't focus on any of that.  This thread focuses on one of the most fatal flaws (get it?) of the whole story: your entire family dies.  There are lots of problems caused by each death, and we will examine the deaths one by one and see all of these.

Death One: Brother or Sister Depending on class

The first thing that happens in the game is that your sibling dies.  We are just getting used to the game at this point, and your sibling dies.  A character we don't know, have no reason to care about, dies.  We know why, it's because of class balancing, but it's honestly ridiculous that it happens.  We are numbed to family death by this.  We hear the mother say something like, "I won't ever forget you, Carver."  It's good someone won't, because I definitely didn't give a single thought to him through my entire playthrough.  I never said to myself, damn, I wish my brother who I never met was here.  It's a video game.  It can't possibly have the emotional response of real life.  Any emotional impact it may have had if we'd known him is completely eliminated.  In fact, placing it so early numbs players to the idea of family death at all.  It's worthless, cheap writing that has no place in a game by devs touted for their story writing abilities.  To quote the only good video game released in March, "Shameful display."

Death Two: Remaining Brother or Sister

I am aware that the next death is avoidable through either leaving the respective sibling at home or bringing along Anders to initiate the Joining ritual.  I know.  Still, lots of players had their sibling die at this point.  The problem with the next death is that it's too random.  There is no real reason the next sibling should die.  It doesn't serve as some amazing plot device, it isn't as a result of a negative choice you make.  It isn't shocking because of what the mother says beforehand.  It felt like a cheap way to try and get some emotion out of the player, once again.  It doesn't have any reason for being there.  It really made the game unenjoyable for me because I liked playing with Bethany much more than with Anders or Merrill as my mage.  I don't even mind companion deaths.  I played original Mass Effect and thought it was brilliantly written.  Wrex had an actual dilemma that he was willing to die over, and needing to kill either Kaidan or Ashley so the bomb went off just worked out well from a story writing stnadpoint.  We knew the characters well enough to feel actual emotion for them in Mass Effect.  The only reason I was sad for Bethany was that I lost my main mage, not that I lost my sister.  I said crap, now the game is gonna be more annoying to play, not oh no, my sister died.

Death Three: Death of the Mother

Again, a pointless, cheap death that comes as a result of lazy writing.  Ultimately I didn't even care about this death either.  When it happened, though, I almost put this game down because I thought to myself, no, it can't be this bad.  But it was.  I had more problems with this death than any other.  The biggest problem I had was that it was a carbon copy of what happens in what should be a far inferior game: Ego Draconis 2.  Literally exactly what happens, the guy trying to recreate his lover through necromancy.  Necromancy never had a large place in DA:O, it really shouldn't have had such prominence in DA2.

Other than the fact that it is suspiciously similar to Ego Draconis 2, the problem with this death is again how random it is.  It didn't come as a result of any choice I made or did not make.  It wasn't some sort of amazing emotional point in the plot.  We hardly knew the mother.  All she did was cry and cry about the death of her other two children, both of which we barely knew at all from the start.  At no point did I think to myself, well, at least Mama Hawke isn't dead.  I just didn't care.  It felt forced.  Like the writers were running out of ways to connect you to the plot, so they throw in this random death.  Again, lazy writing to kill off characters to try and evoke non-existent emotions for them.  Sure it gives you a reason to be pissed off at Orsino, but EVERY mage gives you a reason to be pissed off at ALL mages.  There is not a single good mage to be found in the world of Dragon Age 2.

We BARELY speak to the mother at all.  She has nothing useful to say, just "If your father was around..." 

Conclusion

This game lacks memorable characters.  It lacks guys like Wrex, Garrus, Leliana, Alistair, Shale, Thane, Miranda, etc.  To make up for the lack of memorable characters, it just kills off characters instead, hoping to evoke at least some emotions.  Because we aren't made to care about the characters, this device of killing family members fails.  Family deaths gets tired.

And the placement of the death of the Viscount's son is what truly makes this laughable.  I started laughing when the Viscount's son died because it's placed right after a long chain of deaths.  When it happened, I just thought to myself, wow, these characters who don't matter at all are dropping like flies.

To illustrate my final point, I will say that I would rather have had all of Hawke's family and companions die than have Sandal die.  If Sandal died, I would have been far more upset than if any of the companions or family I had in DA2 died.  That's pathetic.

Modifié par Lethys1, 10 avril 2011 - 03:33 .


#2
jds1bio

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You make way too many points outside of the family life subject, but let's stick with family life for now.

In one of my playthroughs my sibling was alive all the way up through the final battle.  In another playthrough I lost the sibling early on.  Both did affect my playthroughs, and at different points I was upset about both in different ways.  But I had a good game on both playthroughs.

Modifié par jds1bio, 10 avril 2011 - 03:41 .


#3
Chuvvy

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I think Carver could have been a memorable character. The conversation you have with him, where he blames you for Bethanys death, is one of if not the best conversation in the game. To me anyway. But they killed him he either has no conversations or three.

#4
savagesparrow

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I agree with you about the first death--I think that if they had given us more interaction with them or maybe written the other one a bit better I would've felt kinda bad or shocked. They also die in kind of a ridiculous way--my Hawke got run over so many times by Ogres that I lost count. She got dangled like a shish-kabab on the end of the Arishok's sword, and still ok. But Carver takes one hit and he's dead?

I actually felt really sad at the death of Sir Wesley in this opening, and I think it's because we get to see their relationship through Aveline. With them, you see how supportive Avaline is of her husband, how she fights impossible odds to make sure he's safe, picks up his shield to defend him all the while screaming "You will not have him!" The point is, they made us feel this relationship not by telling us, "Hey, these guys are married and in love and you should care about them" but by showing us through their actions and their dialogue how much they care for each other. With Hawke's sibling (and all your interactions with your family in the prologue), you are basically told, "This is your family. You should care about them." None of the characters really feel like they have a relationship to your Hawke until the one sibling dies, and then you notice mom Hawke's upset. But again, because we are =told= to care about Hawke's family, it all feels kinda artificial.

Death 2, while still kinda abrupt, I could get behind a bit more. I had Bethany stay at home mostly because I personally just found her to be kind of a boring character, but I did feel a little bad that she got sent to the Circle. But it seems weird that Bethany would get sent to the Circle when Anders, who's healing all sorts of people in his clinic on a daily basis and running a mage underground/resistance never really sees hide nor hair of templars. But I did like that Bethany sent me a letter from the circle--oddly enough, that letter really made me feel like she had a sisterly relationship to Hawke moreso than her quest (which was more about her mom than about her or our relationship). It would've been nice if we could've gotten more letters from her, but oh well.

Death 3 I have to totally disagree with you on. I thought it was super well handled, and I personally was really depressed over this death. For me at least, I liked Leandra through Act 2, as it's cute when she talks about setting up a husband for fem Hawke, possibly remarrying now that her children are grown up, and expresses concern in my choice of romantic companion ("An elven slave?! I hope you know what you're doing....") ---little conversations like this made her feel like my/Hawke's mom, way more than anything in the previous act and the prologue. When she talks about how proud she is that Hawke bought the mansion and is becoming a hero and all--I felt super proud of myself too. But yeah, onto the death--for me, I followed the trail of blood option, and the voice acting by lady Hawke was truly amazing in this section. I as the player felt more and more uneasy as my Hawke's cries grew more and more frantic following this trail, and the big reveal was so disturbing and depressing. While I really wish I could've saved Leandra (because again, I liked her a lot), I think the dev's made the right choice in making it impossible to save her. Because you know, if there was an option to save her, most everyone would chose that option and thus, her death/undeath becomes a really cheap reload option instead of an example of the horrors of magic.

I also liked the companions coming to talk to Hawke after the event--first time I had Aveline and the second I had Fenris, and in both cases it was really nice because both characters really felt like friends comforting (or in Fenris' case, awkwardly attempting to comfort) a friend in need. So yeah, for me at least, Leandra's death was up there with some of the emotional moments from DAO because it was so damn personal.

#5
Darth Krytie

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Oh, another tl;dr whine-fest from someone else with too much time on their hands. Why anyone would bother wasting their time making their own thread to share their own personal whinging about stuff they hate is beyond my comprehension.

Anyhow, I thought the family deaths made sense. I've dealt with literature all my life and almost every hero is ultimately alone. It made sense and when Carver and Bethany died, I cared. When Leandra died, I was moved. And the emotional scenes after, the fallout, was done brilliantly.

Modifié par Darth Krytie, 10 avril 2011 - 04:12 .


#6
Cutlass Jack

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While you make a fair enough point on the first sibling death, my feeling is that's not the playthrough where you get to learn about that one. But that death builds your connection to your mother and surviving sibling.

The second sibling's death is both easilly avoidable and entirely sensible. You both were tempting fate dancing with Darkspawn more than you should have. Its more unrealistic that someone didn't catch the blight than the reverse. If you didn't feel close to your sister, I'm not sure what you did wrong. There were plenty of opportunities to get to know them prior to that point. In Carver's case this isn't always a good thing...

The mother's death I couldn't disagree more on. That was one of the more emotional moments I've felt in a long time in an RPG. I connected to it quite a bit and felt quite a sense of loss. Moreso than I ever felt over Virmire. It gets even stronger in the aftermath during the conversations with Gamelin and your romanitc interest. It was incredibly well done, epecially when I played through it as Witty Male Hawke. Trying to joke to hide his pain and failing miserably.

Really it seems to me like you spent more time trying to trivialize your interactions with your family than really trying to connect with them. The moments are there if you look for them. Especially with your surviving sibling.

But just my opinion.

Modifié par Cutlass Jack, 10 avril 2011 - 04:24 .


#7
Rockpopple

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Lack of a decent romance option for a straight male? Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?

Anyway, Bethany didn't die in my first playthrough, so Hawke ended up with family in the end. Plus there's always Gamlen.

#8
Cutlass Jack

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Rockpopple wrote...

Anyway, Bethany didn't die in my first playthrough, so Hawke ended up with family in the end. Plus there's always Gamlen.


And Charade. Image IPB

#9
Super_Fr33k

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I think you greatly overstate the characters and story in ME1 & 2 to make your point. I mean, one of your awesome characters is Miranda? She's not that compelling dude. And DA2 has several characters as good or better than ones in DAO or ME2. Varric, Merrill and Fenris are especially interesting and creative characters, while Oghren, Jack, Zevran and Jacob were less so. Ultimately, I think your complaint boils down to your subjective distaste for the characters, for whatever reason, rather than the quality of their design, dialogue or implementation. Every game has good, average, and bad characters.

I agree that the forced death of Bethany/Carver is a tad lame and unnecessary. I would have preferred keeping them both, as I liked both of them. Bethany plays a virtuous apostate very well, and Carver exemplifies sibling rivalry.

Losing the remaining sibling following the Deep Roads is much less forced and more effective, as you've had time to build an actual relationship with him or her. Carver leaving to escape Hawke's shadow is especially realistic, and while Bethany getting taken into the circle is somewhat arbitrary, it does make the mage-templar question more personal. I remember being more than a little worried when I sided with the Templars after Bethany was in the circle.

Leandra's death was simply good. It was chillingly done, and there is plenty of dialogue to make you feel connected to her, if you explore it.

Leandra's death and the losses of your siblings do a good job of making Hawke seem imperfect, isolated and vulnerable. Instead of going, "Rarr, that's lame, I should be able to reload and save them all," I realized good protagonists march forward with physical and emotional scars. Much like the tragedies that befell the protagonist in DAO, they keep your character grounded and prevent complacency.

Modifié par Super_Fr33k, 10 avril 2011 - 04:42 .


#10
GabranthSG

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Well would anyone have known in their first playthrough that the second sibling dies in the Deep Roads? Without having been spoiled that is. You would not have known that you were making a choice between having your sibling die or live. In any case, your sibling still gets taken from you regardless, and yeah, it felt pretty forced.

But what I really had a problem with was how the taint in the Deep Roads occurs. You're not even showed how Carver or Bethany gets infected, and it's just a "Oh dear, I think I'm infected with the taint out of nowhere!" sort of thing. And it feels like such a cop out! They should at least have made a scene where your sibling gets hit by a darkspawn arrow or something. The way that death was handled was too ... abrupt and felt like it served no purpose. I hated it.

#11
AlexXIV

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There isn't more family life in DA2 than we had in DA:O. Quite the opposite actually.

#12
Icy Magebane

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I thought I was going to agree with this, but the OP went off on some tangents I just couldn't follow. Mostly the stuff about the family's emotional impact... I realize this is going to be different for each player, but IMO the characters came alive, and I've never had a playthrough where I just shrugged my shoulders at Leandra's death.

However, I have to agree that the second sibling death was bizarre. I mean, that's some pretty bad luck that Hawke's brother or sister always gets tainted in the Deep Roads. It's not like people haven't gone down there before, and I notice that nobody else is at risk. Only Hawke's immediate family. I mean hell, everybody fought darkspawn down there... Most of the time, it makes no sense that my warrior would travel anywhere with Anders, so Bethany ends up dead regardless...

I guess I can also agree that most of this is just done for cheap drama... It's kind of absurd that all of this is pretty much out of the player's hands. Except of the second death, but that requires metagaming... and even then, you still lose them for pretty much the entire game.

#13
Cutlass Jack

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Dylandl wrote...

Well would anyone have known in their first playthrough that the second sibling dies in the Deep Roads? Without having been spoiled that is. You would not have known that you were making a choice between having your sibling die or live. In any case, your sibling still gets taken from you regardless, and yeah, it felt pretty forced.

But what I really had a problem with was how the taint in the Deep Roads occurs. You're not even showed how Carver or Bethany gets infected, and it's just a "Oh dear, I think I'm infected with the taint out of nowhere!" sort of thing. And it feels like such a cop out! They should at least have made a scene where your sibling gets hit by a darkspawn arrow or something. The way that death was handled was too ... abrupt and felt like it served no purpose. I hated it.



Well your mother makes it pretty darn clear she doesn't want to risk losing both her children to the Deep Roads the minute before you leave. She practially beats you over the head with hints. So that had to flash a warning light in nearly anyone's brain. No spoiler required. The game did everything in its power short of flashing tombstones on the screen to let you know that decision was an important one.

Even neglecting that warning, (As I did my first time) the most logical canidate for the 4th party slot would be the Grey Warden. He has experience in the Deep, he heals, and more importantly he's completely immune to the taint. So reasonable chance your sibling could live even if you ignored the warnings.

I didn't see Bethany catch it as being the least bit surprising since the team spends that segment exploding bodies filled with darkspawn blood. And she was the only one there unprotected by Plot Shield. That Stroud was conveniently nearby to perform the ritual was the bigger stretch than her catching the taint to begin with.

#14
TobiTobsen

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Dylandl wrote...

But what I really had a problem with was how the taint in the Deep Roads occurs. You're not even showed how Carver or Bethany gets infected, and it's just a "Oh dear, I think I'm infected with the taint out of nowhere!" sort of thing. And it feels like such a cop out! They should at least have made a scene where your sibling gets hit by a darkspawn arrow or something. The way that death was handled was too ... abrupt and felt like it served no purpose. I hated it.


Actually it's not completly out of nowhere. If you watch the cutscenes in the Deep Roads closely you will notice that you sibling is always hanging around in the back, holding their head with one hand, or wiping their eyes and stuff like that.
Compared to Wesleys incubation time, they actually last pretty long Image IPB

#15
highcastle

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This is where role playing has to come into effect. Sure, you the player might not know Bethany or Carver well on your first run. But Hawke does. So when I play, I read the codex. I know Beth's a mage and so am I. I figure our father would have taught us both in secret. Being mages, we were probably closer and friendlier than my relationship with Carver suggests of the two of us. And so I do miss Beth because Hawke would miss her. This is supported by banter between Anders and Carver and subsequent conversations with your mother. Just because you personally don't know someone doesn't mean your character is the same. If you've ever lost someone, you can summon those feelings and apply them to someone else. It's rather like acting in a way.

Regarding Leandra, I have to disagree with her never having anything to say. She felt like an integral part of the story on many occasions, and I have to wonder if you really sought out all the dialogues with her. She speaks several times during Act 1 with regards to the family's estate and those quests. She also has 2 dialogues outside those quests. Come Act 2, she'll speak with you initially in the act and also comment on your LI. I felt like she was a part of Hawke's life, and a big one at that. But it makes sense she wouldn't be included in as many dialogues in this part of the game. In the first part, Hawke's working to take care of his family. In the second part, he's done that. Mission accomplished. His friends and personal life are becoming more important, taking precedence over his family to some degree. This made the loss of Leandra hit even harder for my Hawke, as he felt like he had some role in it. If he'd been more involved with Leandra, paid more attention to her and her goings on, maybe he could have prevented this. But that distancing from her, it's a very natural reaction. Everyone goes through it when they hit a certain age, I think.

And lastly, regarding the final sibling. I think this was handled very well. The three different outcomes for what can happen dramatically affect the story. Carver dying in the Deep Roads is one more loss Hawke could have prevented. Him becoming a templar puts the brothers at odds to an even greater degree than before. Becoming a Grey Warden is one more choice someone else made for Carver. This affects their relationship in different ways, and it was interesting watch all the outcomes play out. Again, you have to examine this from the eyes of the PC, not your own personal biases. What does Hawke think/feel about these events? Carver becoming a templar is a betrayal, whereas making Carver a warden might make him feel guilty about bringing his brother with him in the Deep Roads, particularly after Leandra pleaded with him not to allow it. Guilt and betrayal are great motivators, powerful feelings.

#16
Amfortas

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I have to agree with the OP, in general deaths were really badly handled (and I agree in the romance part as well, but I don't care about that). The first death was totally pointless, oh look a random NPC who says she is my sister has died! as if I care. Why can't we reach Kirkwall with both our siblings? mystery.

The next death was semi-logical, but it came really out of nowhere, they should have given us at least a fight against the darkspawn where your brother is injured. I was actually upset when Carver died, because he was being my favorite character so far, so you could say it was a good death, with some impact, but considering the other sibling had just died not long ago it began to feel a bit ridiculous. I thought: next Gamlen, then mother. I have to say I was surprised that Gamlen didn't die in Act III during his mission.

Leandra's death, well, I cared about my mother and I wanted to save her, but when I saw that scene I really laughed, it was so poorly done... it reminds me of one of those teen horror/comedy films. Pathetic, really. It was one of those moments that made me question myself, should I be wasting my time with this?

I don't mind the fact that Hawke looses his whole family, but it's all so forced, especially the siblings deaths, that it looks like cheap melodrama worthy of one of those after lunch telefilms. Wasted potential.

Modifié par Amfortas, 10 avril 2011 - 03:05 .