190 réponses à ce sujet

[Wye]

I don't need a game to be epic to keep myself entertained.

[Kusy]

Hmm... I must addmit, there wasn't even one moment when I could say I was excited... no goose bumps like during final cutscenes of ME, ME2 or DA:O. But I enjoyed the game still.

[DrWoo]

Wye wrote...

I don't need a game to be epic to keep myself entertained.

What can I say, some special people are easily entertained.

My cat for example likes to stare at the window all day. I'm sure he would love the heck out of DA2, all those people moving in Kirkwall is pure entertainment.

[Kasces]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

EccentricSage wrote...

Not really.  Stoping a blight is merely stopping a decidedly negative change in the world.  Defeating the Archdeamon makes you a hero, not the god of thedas who lays down laws across nations.  In 2, you pick sides in a war that is only starting.  That elf mage and mad templar were only the two fools who escalated a decidedly local conflict to the point where a revolutionary had cause and opportunity to take drastic actions.  Actions that make the conflict in Kirkwall into a conflict between all Templars, Mages, and the Chantry.  It's a very political story instead of a 'hero slays dragons and monsters, and everyone congratulates him' fairytale.

Sort of, except it's not.

Dragon Age 2 is a story of various fragile political states falling to pieces for various reasons.  Hawke has little to nothing to do with any of these.

The ends of Act 1 were entirely meaningless. 

The events of Act 2 were not meaningless, however, would have transpired in exactly the same way had Hawke never existed.

The events of Act 3 were also not meaningless, but again, had nothing to do with Hawke.  Hawke was just a moron who was at the wrong place at the wrong time.  He/she picked a side, and made absolutely no difference whatsoever.  Completely irrespective of whether Hawke had been present or not, the war would have come about in exactly the same manner, and resulted in both the final bosses dead anyway.

Anders is more or less responsible for everything.  And even had Hawke AND Anders not existed, it is quite arguable that the situation would have escalated to the stage it got to anyway.

I disagree.

Act 1: Hawke is responsible for the Expedition going well. According to Nate no one had ever gone that deep into the 'Roads, not even Wardens, and one can argue if not for Hawke the Expedition would have never happened/ gone as far as it did, therefore no idol, much less succeed. This also leads to Hawke enhancing the wealth of all of Kirkwall.

Act 2: You are instrumental in stoppping the Qunari. In fact, you're the reason, whether you gave Isabela up, killed the Arishok one on one or killed all opposers in the room. You did it and probably did it in the best way. Without Hawke, it would have gone way worse for everyone. Even if that isn't specifically true, you stopped the Qunari and one of there three main leaders. That says something.

Act  3: You are forced to react to an escalating situation, and as far as history is concerned it matters which side you chose (becoming viscount, supporting the rebellion, etc)

So because it might have had a slim chance of happening anyway, it doesn't matter? So I guess since plenty of Wardens would've been available to stop the th blight the Warden was ultimately meaningless? I mean that is what he/she is known for, stopping the blight.

I also just remembered Hawke may be responsible for Flemeth surviving DA:O, and Flemeth will undoubtedly matter more later. 

Basically, the story is even possible because of Hawke and who he associates with, and associates matter. Praise the Warden all you want but without Alistair, a companion, there would be no Landsmeet and the Warden would've failed. Without Morrigan, a companion, you can't survive the Archdemon and would be even less legendary among Wardens. Companion importance is a good thing. Anders aids Hawke (and Hawke may indirectly help Anders, which matters to the public), Isabela is the reason the Qunari were even in the vicinity, Aveline, who came with Hawke from Ferelden, became head of the City Guard, etc. Most importantly, Varric. You have to take into account there's only a legend of Hawke because Hawke is the catalyst for a continental wide revolution, and Varric and others no doubt told the story once everyone else simply dissapeared. This left room for Hawke's legend to be exaggerated and gotten wrong, eveident of Cassandra who apparently thought Hawke simply showed up with a bunch of badasses to purposely instigate Qunari, bring back old dwaven stuff and overthrow off the Chantry. The game is about finding out the truth of Hawke.

The truth is not extravagent as the myth? Good, that's how reality often is.

You can say the game didn't give you much choice outside the cosmetic, sure, but Hawke not important? Hardly. I don't hear anyone outside of Ferelden caring about the Hero of Ferelden so much they wrote a book about him.
Actually, that makes my Kausmere Suranna a little sad. Forget I brought that up.

Modifié par Kasces, 11 avril 2011 - 03:56 .

[Wye]

DrWoo wrote...

Wye wrote...

I don't need a game to be epic to keep myself entertained.

What can I say, some special people are easily entertained.

My cat for example likes to stare at the window all day. I'm sure he would love the heck out of DA2, all those people moving in Kirkwall is pure entertainment.

What is your definition of "epic"? If yours is "fun," then your use of the word is incorrect. The game was fun for me. "Fun" is in the eye of the beholder. I'm not your cat.

[Cataca]

Amioran wrote...



Good to know.

Just one question: have you ever read the Faust of Goethe? Just in case you have (which I higly doubt) I bet you find it not "epic" too, isn't it?

Not all stories must have an "epic" background to be so. If you want to troll at last do so intelligently or just shut up.

Are you quite sane? Comparing an epic of german literature to a video game with no coherent storytelling at all?  I wont say you didnt read faust, but just "reading" in the sense of looking at the words, doesnt quite cut it in that sense. Or do you have the audacity to claim you understand a piece of work that others write their PHD about. Besides, its called an "epic" because thats what it is, its a form of a book, and has nothing to do with the quality behind it. 

Purple People Eater wrote...

I dont think it was the intent of the devs to go for "epic" in this game.It was always meant to be a smaller story told on a smaller scale. Not every RPG needs to be "epic". I actually liked that about DA2. It diddnt follow the tried and true RPG setup.

Apart from breaking the immersion and the 4th wall with pretty much every encounter you face, the lack of epic content isnt the reason of the shortcomings of the story. Quite the opposite really, the *slight spoilers ahead* deep road expedition, the qunari thing and the mage stuff would have been epic enough, but the storytelling was rubbish, it didnt FEEL epic, even tho there was no lack of story elements to exploit. The billions of sidequests you did next to the main story elements dimished their impact. Re-re used locations  just added to that. What was left (for me at least) was the feeling that i just completed another sidequest.

Modifié par Cataca, 11 avril 2011 - 03:50 .

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

Lol, we are really getting a disconnect in what we mean by "epic".

Epic need not mean big in number or scale.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 11 avril 2011 - 03:52 .

[DrWoo]

Wye wrote...

DrWoo wrote...

Wye wrote...

I don't need a game to be epic to keep myself entertained.

What can I say, some special people are easily entertained.

My cat for example likes to stare at the window all day. I'm sure he would love the heck out of DA2, all those people moving in Kirkwall is pure entertainment.

What is your definition of "epic"? If yours is "fun," then your use of the word is incorrect. The game was fun for me. "Fun" is in the eye of the beholder. I'm not your cat.

Meh too bad, I love cats.

[AAHook2]

I really wish they had suck with the Qunari plot. I feel the most epic moment in the game didn't even involve the Arishok. It was the ending of the free the Qunari mage scenario. My heart actually lept because I thought that here was the start of when this game becomes truly epic, finally. Sadly that scenario just ended and pretty much was just mentioned in passing a couple of times later in the game.
Oh well, at least there were some really brilliant moments in the game.

Modifié par AAHook2, 11 avril 2011 - 04:03 .

[PurpleJesus]

 I would have bought it if the ad's 

"Button = Awsome  and"
"Follow the gripping tale of some guy"
"Who spends a decade in a city that never changes"
"Who has a marginal impact on the world"
"And does some stuff"  

Why would i want to role play  "That Guy"  and i use that loosely because i don't wear cardboard armour while i play.

Yes i want an epic tale ...
because there is a good chance that in real life i wont go exploring a dungeon , wield a sword , or bed elf chicks.

I want Epic , why in gods name are people defending a Non EPic tale.

What is the next game going to be ?
Cubicle Warriors .... Follow the story of Bob as he get's coffee for the team meeting. 
then climbs the ladder to to project management. ... BORING!!! 

Modifié par PurpleJesus, 11 avril 2011 - 04:13 .

[tybert7]

SoR82 wrote...

thatbwoyblu wrote...

People who make complain accounts are 65 year old weirdos that need to grow the F up real spit. Bioware put they heart in DA 2 and all yall old azz EMOs wanna tear it apart. I say its time for Bioware to become console exclusive and leave these old LameOs in the dust.

I think i just threw up a little...

If I was on the same side as that comment... I think Id change sides on that alone

You are stronger than I am, I threw up on half my relatives for like an hour after seeing that statement.

[Boiny Bunny]

Kasces wrote...

Act 1: Hawke is responsible for the Expedition going well. According to Nate no one had ever gone that deep into the 'Roads, not even Wardens, and one can argue if not for Hawke the Expedition would have never happened/ gone as far as it did, therefore no idol, much less succeed. This also leads to Hawke enhancing the wealth of all of Kirkwall.

Yep, absolutely.  And the expedition had nothing to do with anything.  It was not an event of any importance whatsover.  Rather, it was an event that was important for Hawke's family and Varric's family.  If Hawke had never existed, perhaps the expedition would have gone ahead anyway, perhaps not.  Either way, it has no grand impact on what happened in Kirkwall or Thedas.  The expdition was a non-event - simply Hawke's shot at 'get rich or die trying'.

Kasces wrote...

Act 2: You are instrumental in stoppping the Qunari. In fact, you're the reason, whether you gave Isabela up, killed the Arishok one on one or killed all opposers in the room. You did it and probably did it in the best way. Without Hawke, it would have gone way worse for everyone. Even if that isn't specifically true, you stopped the Qunari and one of there three main leaders. That says something.

Nope, not in the slightest.  Hawke kills about 30 Qunari and some other randoms (a few Carta thugs and elves) on the way to the keep.  He/she then goes in, kills about another 15 Qunari, and kills the Arishok/lets the Arishok leave.  If Hawke had never existed, Meredith's Templars would have easily handled the threat - as they more or less were when you first found them.  The Arishok had almost no Qunari left - only 300 landed with him, and many left before the events of the end of Act 2.

Hawke was the one who actually beheaded the Arishok - and sure, if it was a duel, that's no mean feat.  But sigificant?  Not at all.  Meredith with a few templar could have raided the keep easily (and were on the verge of doing so when you got there), and killed the Arishok.  Perhaps not in as glorious a manner, but that makes little difference.

Kasces wrote...

Act  3: You are forced to react to an escalating situation, and as far as history is concerned it matters which side you chose (becoming viscount, supporting the rebellion, etc)

So because it might have had a slim chance of happening anyway, it doesn't matter? So I guess since plenty of Wardens would've been available to stop the th blight the Warden was ultimately meaningless? I mean that is what he/she is known for, stopping the blight.

What are you talking about?  'Slim' chance of happening??  Every event that lead up to the escalation had nothing to do with Hawke.  Orsino had grown tired of the Tempars, and was beginning to cause a lot of trouble.  This made Meredith grasp them harder than ever, which caused Orsino to rebel even more.  This is explained in the cutscene between act 2 and 3.

Anders blows up the Chantry and was always going to, utterly irrespective of whether or not you help him.  Even if you refuse to help him, he still gathers what he needs and blows it up, sparking the war.

Hawke decision of 'which side to support' carries no meaning whatsoever.  Whichever side he/she picks, Hawke slays a few dozen mages/templar once Anders has set the conflict ablaze, then kills Orsino and Meredith.  If Hawke had never been there, they just would have fought one another until one was dead and the other on the brink of death to be taken down by somebody else.

Your point about the Grey Wardens makes no sense.  It has been confirmed literally, that if the Warden had never existed, Ferelden would have fallen.  Alistair and the other party members would have been killed, resulting in no Grey Wardens in all of Ferelden (due to Loghain's madness and rejecting all Grey Wardens at the border from other countries).

Kasces wrote...

Basically, the story is even possible because of Hawke and who he associates with, and who he associates with matters. Praise the Warden all you want, but without Alistair, a companion, there would be no Landsmeet and the Warden would've failed. Without Morrigan, a companion, you can't survive the Archdemon and would be even less legendary among Wardens. Companion importance is a good thing. Anders aids Hawke (and Hawke may indirectly help Anders, which matters to the public), Isabela is the reason the Qunari were even in the vicinity, Aveline, who came with Hawke from Ferelden, became head of the City Guard, etc. Most importantly, Varric. You have to take into account there's only a legend of Hawke because Hawke is the catalyst for a continental wide revolution, and Varric and others no doubt told the story once everyone else simply dissapeared. This left room for Hawke's legend to be exxagerated and gotten wrong, eveident of Cassandra who apparently thought Hawke simply showed up with a bunch of badasses to purposely instigate Qunari, bring back old dwaven stuff and overthrow off the Chantry.

Hawke is not a catalyst for anything.  Anders is solely responsible.  Hawke has nothing to do with Isabela stealing the relic in the first place and bringing the Qunari to Kirkwall.  Hawke has nothing to do with Anders plans for the Chantry, and his eventual actions.  Hanging out with influential people (Isabela, Anders) does NOT make you influential, in the slightest.

Hawke did not start the revolution at all.  Had very little to do with it.  If the people of Thedas believe that Hawke did, it is only because of Varric's blatant lies and extaggeration.

And yes, the Warden did need the help of others, who were partly important in their own rights.  That doesn't take away from the importance of the Warden.

The point is, if the Warden had never existed, what would be different?

1) Alistair and entire party are killed
2) Ferelden falls to the blight (the implications of this could be no more than what I've written, or could imply a 400 year war against the Darkspawn for the rest of the world)
3) Hawke is killed at Lothering, as Flemeth does not require him/her to 'save' her from the Warden

If Hawke had never existed, what would be different?

Zip.  Nadda.  A completely unimportant expedition may not have happened.  Meredith and Orsino would have dealt with the Arishok instead of Hawke.  Due to the extreme actions of Anders, the conflict would have blown up in the exact same manner anyway.  So...pretty much nothing?

Kasces wrote...

You can say the game didn't give you much choice outside the cosmetic, sure, but Hawke not important? Hardly. I don't hear anyone outside of Ferelden caring about the Hero of Ferelden so much they wrote a book about him.
Actually, that makes my Kausmere Suranna a little sad. Forget I brought that up.

That's exactly right.  The Warden is somebody who did something important, and was forgotten quickly, because nobody ever really even saw him/her, and there was no dwarf to spread the legend.

Hawke is known because he/she is a political figure.  He/she lived in Kirkwall for 7 years, became a noble that attended many parties etc. and had his/her name spread all over the place by a serious extaggerating dwarf (Varric).

The Warden was to most, a mysterious figure who brought 4 large armies to Denerim, slaughtered the darkspawn and the Archdemon, then disappeared into the winds.  The Warden never spent much time interacting with anybody outside of his/her party, and thus never really had the opportunity to 'become famous'.

Fame is not a measure of importance.

[DrWoo]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

Kasces wrote...

Act 1: Hawke is responsible for the Expedition going well. According to Nate no one had ever gone that deep into the 'Roads, not even Wardens, and one can argue if not for Hawke the Expedition would have never happened/ gone as far as it did, therefore no idol, much less succeed. This also leads to Hawke enhancing the wealth of all of Kirkwall.

Yep, absolutely.  And the expedition had nothing to do with anything.  It was not an event of any importance whatsover.  Rather, it was an event that was important for Hawke's family and Varric's family.  If Hawke had never existed, perhaps the expedition would have gone ahead anyway, perhaps not.  Either way, it has no grand impact on what happened in Kirkwall or Thedas.  The expdition was a non-event - simply Hawke's shot at 'get rich or die trying'.

Kasces wrote...

Act 2: You are instrumental in stoppping the Qunari. In fact, you're the reason, whether you gave Isabela up, killed the Arishok one on one or killed all opposers in the room. You did it and probably did it in the best way. Without Hawke, it would have gone way worse for everyone. Even if that isn't specifically true, you stopped the Qunari and one of there three main leaders. That says something.

Nope, not in the slightest.  Hawke kills about 30 Qunari and some other randoms (a few Carta thugs and elves) on the way to the keep.  He/she then goes in, kills about another 15 Qunari, and kills the Arishok/lets the Arishok leave.  If Hawke had never existed, Meredith's Templars would have easily handled the threat - as they more or less were when you first found them.  The Arishok had almost no Qunari left - only 300 landed with him, and many left before the events of the end of Act 2.

Hawke was the one who actually beheaded the Arishok - and sure, if it was a duel, that's no mean feat.  But sigificant?  Not at all.  Meredith with a few templar could have raided the keep easily (and were on the verge of doing so when you got there), and killed the Arishok.  Perhaps not in as glorious a manner, but that makes little difference.

Kasces wrote...

Act  3: You are forced to react to an escalating situation, and as far as history is concerned it matters which side you chose (becoming viscount, supporting the rebellion, etc)

So because it might have had a slim chance of happening anyway, it doesn't matter? So I guess since plenty of Wardens would've been available to stop the th blight the Warden was ultimately meaningless? I mean that is what he/she is known for, stopping the blight.

What are you talking about?  'Slim' chance of happening??  Every event that lead up to the escalation had nothing to do with Hawke.  Orsino had grown tired of the Tempars, and was beginning to cause a lot of trouble.  This made Meredith grasp them harder than ever, which caused Orsino to rebel even more.  This is explained in the cutscene between act 2 and 3.

Anders blows up the Chantry and was always going to, utterly irrespective of whether or not you help him.  Even if you refuse to help him, he still gathers what he needs and blows it up, sparking the war.

Hawke decision of 'which side to support' carries no meaning whatsoever.  Whichever side he/she picks, Hawke slays a few dozen mages/templar once Anders has set the conflict ablaze, then kills Orsino and Meredith.  If Hawke had never been there, they just would have fought one another until one was dead and the other on the brink of death to be taken down by somebody else.

Your point about the Grey Wardens makes no sense.  It has been confirmed literally, that if the Warden had never existed, Ferelden would have fallen.  Alistair and the other party members would have been killed, resulting in no Grey Wardens in all of Ferelden (due to Loghain's madness and rejecting all Grey Wardens at the border from other countries).

Kasces wrote...

Basically, the story is even possible because of Hawke and who he associates with, and who he associates with matters. Praise the Warden all you want, but without Alistair, a companion, there would be no Landsmeet and the Warden would've failed. Without Morrigan, a companion, you can't survive the Archdemon and would be even less legendary among Wardens. Companion importance is a good thing. Anders aids Hawke (and Hawke may indirectly help Anders, which matters to the public), Isabela is the reason the Qunari were even in the vicinity, Aveline, who came with Hawke from Ferelden, became head of the City Guard, etc. Most importantly, Varric. You have to take into account there's only a legend of Hawke because Hawke is the catalyst for a continental wide revolution, and Varric and others no doubt told the story once everyone else simply dissapeared. This left room for Hawke's legend to be exxagerated and gotten wrong, eveident of Cassandra who apparently thought Hawke simply showed up with a bunch of badasses to purposely instigate Qunari, bring back old dwaven stuff and overthrow off the Chantry.

Hawke is not a catalyst for anything.  Anders is solely responsible.  Hawke has nothing to do with Isabela stealing the relic in the first place and bringing the Qunari to Kirkwall.  Hawke has nothing to do with Anders plans for the Chantry, and his eventual actions.  Hanging out with influential people (Isabela, Anders) does NOT make you influential, in the slightest.

Hawke did not start the revolution at all.  Had very little to do with it.  If the people of Thedas believe that Hawke did, it is only because of Varric's blatant lies and extaggeration.

And yes, the Warden did need the help of others, who were partly important in their own rights.  That doesn't take away from the importance of the Warden.

The point is, if the Warden had never existed, what would be different?

1) Alistair and entire party are killed
2) Ferelden falls to the blight (the implications of this could be no more than what I've written, or could imply a 400 year war against the Darkspawn for the rest of the world)
3) Hawke is killed at Lothering, as Flemeth does not require him/her to 'save' her from the Warden

If Hawke had never existed, what would be different?

Zip.  Nadda.  A completely unimportant expedition may not have happened.  Meredith and Orsino would have dealt with the Arishok instead of Hawke.  Due to the extreme actions of Anders, the conflict would have blown up in the exact same manner anyway.  So...pretty much nothing?

Kasces wrote...

You can say the game didn't give you much choice outside the cosmetic, sure, but Hawke not important? Hardly. I don't hear anyone outside of Ferelden caring about the Hero of Ferelden so much they wrote a book about him.
Actually, that makes my Kausmere Suranna a little sad. Forget I brought that up.

That's exactly right.  The Warden is somebody who did something important, and was forgotten quickly, because nobody ever really even saw him/her, and there was no dwarf to spread the legend.

Hawke is known because he/she is a political figure.  He/she lived in Kirkwall for 7 years, became a noble that attended many parties etc. and had his/her name spread all over the place by a serious extaggerating dwarf (Varric).

The Warden was to most, a mysterious figure who brought 4 large armies to Denerim, slaughtered the darkspawn and the Archdemon, then disappeared into the winds.  The Warden never spent much time interacting with anybody outside of his/her party, and thus never really had the opportunity to 'become famous'.

Fame is not a measure of importance.

Damn I think I'm in love with your argumentative skills...God I hope you're a chick.

I'm humbled by your abilities. I feel bad for the guy you replied to.

[lobi]

Step one to world dominance by corporations.
Convince peons that being part of something larger is more important than leaving your own mark on history.

[DrWoo]

Dragon Age Hawke.

The story of a random guy who was in the right place at the right time and eliminated a bunch of nameless goons on his way to gaining absolutely nothing by killing nobody important.

AWESOME! -Mike Laidlaw
Trend-changing! -The Escapist
GAME OF THE YEAR ALL YEARS! -PCamer
Game is total crap-Gaming magasine whose check got lost in the mail

Modifié par DrWoo, 11 avril 2011 - 04:38 .

[Fishy]

Mrbananagrabber wrote...

I might as well have been shopping around Kirkwall during those 10 years. Nothing I did changed squat, my choices didn't matter, no exploration, stuck in the same town from start to finish, no big plot to foil, no final boss to fell.

If I want to spend 7 years being bored in one area, do nothing of my life and doing chores for strangers I'll just freaking start volunteering, at least its free.

It's nice to have ambition .. and traveling .. But you're really naive.You think like a 20 years old..It's fine though.
That exactly how i was thinking 10 years ago when i was 20 and left my parent house for the 'Big city' .

Because i was BETTER THAN EVERYONE..FEAR ME CITY HERE I COMEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Modifié par Suprez30, 11 avril 2011 - 06:27 .

[Teredan]

I find it hard to imagine how anyone couldn't find Anders doing his thing near the end not epic.
Bitter yes because you have no say in the matter, but is was very memorable and fullfills my requirements of epic. Not everything has to be a final showdown of hardfound allies clashing against the ultimate evil to be epic.

That said to me it was overall less memorable than my origins experience, but it doesn't mean that this making it all out bad is justified

Modifié par Teredan, 11 avril 2011 - 08:19 .

[Sabriana]

What Anders did was as stupid as it can get. It was lame, imo. All he did was doom the cause he so harped on all through the game. He paved the way for a certain Templar boss by eliminating the only one who stood in her way, thereby giving her complete control.

Any civilian population who even entertained the thought that maybe it wasn't right to lock up mages will quickly change their collective minds.

All Anders did was emphazise the very things that led to the supression of mages in the first place, and he doomed all the Kirkwall mages in one fell stroke.

Sorry, but that ending was nothing short of silly, and showed me, personally, that little thought of cohesion, aforethought, logical thinking, and reasonable conclusion forming was put into the game as a whole.

The whole "boom" thing was, imo, nothing more than pretty cinematics, moar dramah at all cost, and lookee here, pretty colors.

I also agree with B. Bunny's take on Hawke. I go further than that, and say that the expedition would most likely still happen. I recall that Hawke wasn't the only one interested in financing it, and iirc, Varric was not opposed to the alternate financier.

[BLunted]

erynnar wrote...

I was Hawke...Champion of Chores!

Hehe, stealing that for my sig.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

Your point about the Grey Wardens makes no sense.  It has been confirmed literally, that if the Warden had never existed, Ferelden would have fallen.  Alistair and the other party members would have been killed, resulting in no Grey Wardens in all of Ferelden (due to Loghain's madness and rejecting all Grey Wardens at the border from other countries).

Where has that been confirmed? The Darkspawn DLC is NOT canon.

Kasces wrote...
Act 1:
Hawke is responsible for the Expedition going well. According to Nate no
one had ever gone that deep into the 'Roads, not even Wardens, and one
can argue if not for Hawke the Expedition would have never happened/
gone as far as it did, therefore no idol, much less succeed. This also
leads to Hawke enhancing the wealth of all of Kirkwall.

Because there's no one in Kirkwall with coin or skill?

Wthout Hawke (no replacement) the expedition would have faield. With someone else in his place - who knows. Hawke was a hired sword there and financial support.
If not Hawke, Varric would have found someone else.

[Brp650]

you know if you play the Benny Hill theme song while playing this, it kinda makes sense.

[Teredan]

Sabriana wrote...

What Anders did was as stupid as it can get. It was lame, imo. All he did was doom the cause he so harped on all through the game. He paved the way for a certain Templar boss by eliminating the only one who stood in her way, thereby giving her complete control.

Any civilian population who even entertained the thought that maybe it wasn't right to lock up mages will quickly change their collective minds.

All Anders did was emphazise the very things that led to the supression of mages in the first place, and he doomed all the Kirkwall mages in one fell stroke.

Sorry, but that ending was nothing short of silly, and showed me, personally, that little thought of cohesion, aforethought, logical thinking, and reasonable conclusion forming was put into the game as a whole.

You know the point is that his decision wasn't rational, it is the decision of someone driven mad by his urge for retalation (vengeance). It's quite clear throughout the game that his feelings have been accelerating. The act in itself was quite unexpected for me, well at least it's drasticness.

[EccentricSage]

mrcrusty wrote...

neppakyo wrote...

TRfore wrote...

The only thing epic about this game is that it basically destroyed Bioware's  EPIC reputation as a producer of quality RPGs.
If you don't believe me checkout Metacritic's and Amazon's buyer's reviews

I shall counter with the defense of "metric scores are dum" Which is usually said when someone brings it up.

Not me, I give it a 5.5-6.5/10.

No, it's usually the "metacritic scores are full of trolls from 4chan and RPGCodex" line.

Personally, the game has some good underlying concepts and good material to work with, but was absolutely butchered in execution due to conscious design decisions and the shortened development time. I like the faster paced combat. I like the cross class combos. I liked the integration of companions into dialogue (compared with Origins). But for everything that DA 2 does right, it does several things wrong.

What does get me though is the attitude that some Bioware employees bring to the table. That being that Dragon Age 2 was a great game, they will continue in this direction with minor tweaks. People who disagree are generally afraid of change and stuck in the past.

The worst part is that if they could justify many of the changes more than "because we can", it wouldn't be so bad. If the changes had a practical benefit that adds depth to the experience, then I'm all for it. The wheel doesn't bother me as much as the paraphrasing. Voiced protagonist doesn't bother me as much as the voice acting itself. Give us variety (5-6 per gender per race) and the option to stay silent and I wouldn't mind it so much.

On the other hand, I have no idea what the re-used environments or waves of materialising enemies or non customizable companions (thereby ruining much of the inventory system) or no tactical camera or limited choices have to do with adding depth. All of which were defended by Bioware.

Nice.  I agree with you.  And that bit right there... is mostly cut corners to get the product out on time.  I also have a theory that the lead level designer is a complete **** who thinks he's working on a franchise to be marketed to 12 year olds.  Or at least that's the impression I got from the interview.  He wants Dragon Age to be God of War or Devil May Cry, and he doesn't even do that well.

Laidaw said that the companion armor was intended to make the characters more recognisable and more individual, and that the accessories and character specific items were an attempt to keep their stats a bit customisable in spite of that.  I have to admit, he has a point.  Why would Hawke get to tell his friends how to dress?  LOL  But there should be a variety of character specific outfits and upgrades available, IMO.  I can understand that they ran out of time, though.

I'm mostly pissed at the lack of variety in outcomes of choices PCs make, and the rediculously repetative and non strategic level design and silly looking combat.  It's great that the combat becomes a bit faster and more dynamic, but they pushed it too far in that direction.  So now everyone runs around flailing madly, looking like a fast-forward button is being held down, in order to avoid getting hit long enough to pull off certain moves.  I really hate the overall look and feel of it.  (Almost as much as I hate characters going into battle without shoes.  WTF.  Who does that?)

I'll defend the main story line, though.  It's a shame it wasn't executed better with more variables.  I'm all for the one catastrophic event at the end not being stoppable, but they shouldn't make the Player feel like they're just being dragged along by their party like that, and it's silly to have to fight the side you...sided with.  (Though it makes for awesome Cullen moment, which is awesome)  The narrative and what it means for Theidas is inherantly epic, but the execution of that, takes a lot away from the power of the narative, I'll agree.

[EccentricSage]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

EccentricSage wrote...

Not really.  Stoping a blight is merely stopping a decidedly negative change in the world.  Defeating the Archdeamon makes you a hero, not the god of thedas who lays down laws across nations.  In 2, you pick sides in a war that is only starting.  That elf mage and mad templar were only the two fools who escalated a decidedly local conflict to the point where a revolutionary had cause and opportunity to take drastic actions.  Actions that make the conflict in Kirkwall into a conflict between all Templars, Mages, and the Chantry.  It's a very political story instead of a 'hero slays dragons and monsters, and everyone congratulates him' fairytale.

Sort of, except it's not.

Dragon Age 2 is a story of various fragile political states falling to pieces for various reasons.  Hawke has little to nothing to do with any of these.

The ends of Act 1 were entirely meaningless.

Act one sucks, but is there to get you aquanted with characters and party members, and to make you work for what you get in act 2.  I think it could have been done so much better, though.

The events of Act 2 were not meaningless, however, would have transpired in exactly the same way had Hawke never existed.

Why?  Because someone else would step in and take care of it after no one else did for years?  You could say the same about any storyline... if 'the hero of the day' didn't take care of it, some other slob could... or not. 

The events of Act 3 were also not meaningless, but again, had nothing to do with Hawke.  Hawke was just a moron who was at the wrong place at the wrong time.  He/she picked a side, and made absolutely no difference whatsoever.  Completely irrespective of whether Hawke had been present or not, the war would have come about in exactly the same manner, and resulted in both the final bosses dead anyway.

Anders is more or less responsible for everything.  And even had Hawke AND Anders not existed, it is quite arguable that the situation would have escalated to the stage it got to anyway.

Hawk's decission to side with the Mages spares some of the mages from slaughter, according to Verric.  Not sure what happens if you side with the Templars other than getting bowed to. 

Without Hawke and Anders, I think the context of the battle would have been different in the long run.  It's quite possible Maradith would have simply annuled the circle eventually, no war at all.  There still would have been new mages, and the wounds of the city would have continued to fester.  I agree Anders is more important than Hawke, though.  Here Hawke is... this respected figure who rose to power in Kirkwall, protecting apostates and trying to mediate a conflict, and Anders does what he does.  THAT was EPIC.  Anders saw to it that the conflict would not be ignored, not by the chantry, not by the circles, and not by the world.  So I guess Anders is more Epic than Hawke, but I can live with that.

BTW, totally agree with those who complain that there is too much fighting and it's largely pointless.  It really seemed like Laidaw and that lead level designer were trying to turn the Dragon Age franchise into God of War, which does not fit the narrative or style of Dragon Age: 2 AT ALL.  It's hard to feel like Hawke is even trying to mediate anything when most situations lead to violence no matter what, and peasant ninjas try to kill 'the Champion' for simply going out for a stroll at night.  The Lead Level Designer should really be ashamed of how he marred the storyline with his ****ty poorly thought out work, and complete disregard of in-game logic.

[EccentricSage]

Brp650 wrote...

you know if you play the Benny Hill theme song while playing this, it kinda makes sense.

I think I love you.  Make the video.