190 réponses à ce sujet

[Borrachofunk69]

You all know the OP is right.

I tried to defend DA2 myself as well. About the small focus of the story and "maturity" of it. It didn't fly. Any reasonable, open-minded, unbiased player will tell you the same. A game can take place in one room with two people and be epic. In DA2 nearly none of your choices mattered, combat was a thankless chore and the environments felt deader than an 8bit static map in Wasteland.

Fact.

[EccentricSage]

Borrachofunk69 wrote...

You all know the OP is right.

I tried to defend DA2 myself as well. About the small focus of the story and "maturity" of it. It didn't fly. Any reasonable, open-minded, unbiased player will tell you the same. A game can take place in one room with two people and be epic. In DA2 nearly none of your choices mattered, combat was a thankless chore and the environments felt deader than an 8bit static map in Wasteland.

Fact.

I agree. 

I'm only defending what the writers tried to do.  Most of how it was implimented was awful. 

[Relshar]

mrcrusty wrote...

I get the impression that Dragon Age 2 lacks cohesion, whether narrative or logical. That's why it doesn't "feel epic".

The lack of epic scale is hardly a bad thing, but I think it's a common misunderstanding to make. A game where the world changes after various events and the story becomes a culmination of choices you've made, that feels epic. Even if the scale of the game wasn't epic in size.

If Dragon Age 2 is Hawke becoming the Champion of Kirkwall, what is Planescape: Torment but The Nameless One regaining his memories?

On the face of it, that is not an epic story. But it is. Because of how it was executed.

^^ this.
DA:2 was executed very badly BioWare pandered to the console kiddies and forgot about the PC customers in the hopes to make alot of money. I see DA:2 as a crowning fail for them as a company. I certainly will not be buying DA:3 untill I have played a demo and waited for a few reviews. No more pre-Orders from me.

[Dr Bawbag]

Nothing in DA:O was epic too. Flemeth, The High Dragon, The battle for Denerim and the final battle were all a bit... well... meh. The latter two were simply a large stream of enemies that we had encountered numerous times before.

[Boiny Bunny]

^ Yes, because obviously epic means to fight a large horde of new enemies that you have never seen before all at once.



Epic is defined by the feeling you get from a situation. It could be a well conceived large battle (e.g. Denerim, the ending sequence of Mass Effect 1), or something on a much smaller scale.

If you didn't get an 'epic' feeling from the battle of Denerim, well, too bad for you I guess.

[turian councilor Knockout]

Emile de Launcet was epicly awkward though, but other than that DA 2 is nowhere near origins storywise.

Modifié par turian councilor Knockout, 12 avril 2011 - 09:41 .

[Fallstar]

At the end of the day, Hawke does some pretty epic stuff by 'normal standards'. But if you've played Origins, Hawke just doesn't compare to The Warden. The Warden makes things happen, I mean lets just list what the Warden does that I view as epic:
- Saves a circle tower that has been overwhelmed by abominations
- Manages to convince Zathrian and the Lady of the Forest, who have been enemies for centuries, to come to a peaceful agreement in, oh, a couple of hours.
- Finds the ashes of Andraste, the bride of the Maker, lost for eight centuries. No problem for the Warden. Uses said ashes to cure a powerful Arl.
- Slays a high dragon, Hawke does this too.
- Defeats Flemeth in her high dragon form. Flemeth, the powerful, secretive witch who is more dangerous than we know, according to Morrigan.
- Pieces together a lost story spread across Fereldan, then finds and slays one of the most powerful entities in existence, who has preyed on adventurers for Ages.
- Reclaim's the lost Soldier's Peak.
- Decides who to put on the throne of Orzammar; the fate of one of the most powerful civilisations in Thedas lies in your hands here.
- Avoids a civil war, by turning the Landsmeet against Loghain, hero of the river Dane, one of the most loved and respected people in Fereldan.
- Slays a fricking Archdemon. I mean come on; an Archdemon, a corrupted old god, or a templar who who went a bit loony?
- Awakening: take over an entire arling, take back the Blackmarsh, slay Inferno Golems, Spirit Dragons, multiple broodmothers, intelligent darkspawn and experience a moral quandry with the Architect.
- Amgarrak: visit a lost Dwarven thaig, and fight one of the deadliest foes in Thedas. I mean come on, the Harvester in DA:2 was pathetic by comparison.
- And finally, search for and find a single person in an entire world, before stepping through an ancient, elven mirror to god knows where.

And Bioware wonder why people find DA:2 to be a bit, well, meh?

[turian councilor Knockout]

Well, the Warden accomplished significantly greater things than Hawke have done yet so Bioware must see that they can't just ignore that Choices and Story telling failed in DA 2 ( maybe they have become lazy or something i just don't care anymore).

[gotthammer]

SirLogical wrote...

At the end of the day, Hawke does some pretty epic stuff by 'normal standards'. But if you've played Origins, Hawke just doesn't compare to The Warden. The Warden makes things happen, I mean lets just list what the Warden does that I view as epic:
- Saves a circle tower that has been overwhelmed by abominations
- Manages to convince Zathrian and the Lady of the Forest, who have been enemies for centuries, to come to a peaceful agreement in, oh, a couple of hours.
- Finds the ashes of Andraste, the bride of the Maker, lost for eight centuries. No problem for the Warden. Uses said ashes to cure a powerful Arl.
- Slays a high dragon, Hawke does this too.
- Defeats Flemeth in her high dragon form. Flemeth, the powerful, secretive witch who is more dangerous than we know, according to Morrigan.
- Pieces together a lost story spread across Fereldan, then finds and slays one of the most powerful entities in existence, who has preyed on adventurers for Ages.
- Reclaim's the lost Soldier's Peak.
- Decides who to put on the throne of Orzammar; the fate of one of the most powerful civilisations in Thedas lies in your hands here.
- Avoids a civil war, by turning the Landsmeet against Loghain, hero of the river Dane, one of the most loved and respected people in Fereldan.
- Slays a fricking Archdemon. I mean come on; an Archdemon, a corrupted old god, or a templar who who went a bit loony?
- Awakening: take over an entire arling, take back the Blackmarsh, slay Inferno Golems, Spirit Dragons, multiple broodmothers, intelligent darkspawn and experience a moral quandry with the Architect.
- Amgarrak: visit a lost Dwarven thaig, and fight one of the deadliest foes in Thedas. I mean come on, the Harvester in DA:2 was pathetic by comparison.
- And finally, search for and find a single person in an entire world, before stepping through an ancient, elven mirror to god knows where.

And Bioware wonder why people find DA:2 to be a bit, well, meh?

IMHO, it's not just the deeds...it's how one can be made to feel about them. The characters and the story, IMHO, were just better presented/told/executed in DA:O than in DA2. I felt that there was a connection between my character and the story and other characters in DA:O. While it wasn't a perfect game (DA:O also had a fair amount of parts where I thought, "dang, that could've been better, what a wasted opportunity"), DA:O felt more...'complete'.

In DA2 stuff really felt 'rushed': who is Hawke? who is his/her brother/sister and why should I care what happens to one of them? The lack of time given to flesh out characters (not just at the start) and tell a more cohesive story, IMHO, creates a 'disconnect'.

It's not even the kind of narrative style that's at fault, but how stuff was executed as a whole, methinks. Even if the story were supposed to be grand/epic, if it's poorly executed...then it won't 'feel' that way, I guess.

It can still be 'fixed', tho'...free Enhanced Edition, BioWare? 

[PlumPaul93]

I know this is gonna sound stupid and I like DA2 but team plasma's battle theme in pokemon black and white is more epic to me than anything in DA2 although the battle at the end of act 2 is somewhat epic although tedious.

[Curlain]

Boiny Bunny wrote...


Hawke is not a catalyst for anything.  Anders is solely responsible.  Hawke has nothing to do with Isabela stealing the relic in the first place and bringing the Qunari to Kirkwall.  Hawke has nothing to do with Anders plans for the Chantry, and his eventual actions.  Hanging out with influential people (Isabela, Anders) does NOT make you influential, in the slightest.

Hawke did not start the revolution at all.  Had very little to do with it.  If the people of Thedas believe that Hawke did, it is only because of Varric's blatant lies and extaggeration.

And on this point, it's actually the Warden again and not Hawke who has the decisive influence on Anders fate.  It was the Warden's (or the Orlesian Warden) actions in Awakenings that spares Anders from the templars by recruiting him into the Grey Wardens, and then finds Justice and brings him fully out of the Fade.  And the Warden then brings Justice into the party with Anders and thus connects these two together.  So though unintentionally, it's the Warden who puts things in motion that led to the creation of Vengeance and enabled Anders to go on to do what he did 

[AlainNagel]

SirLogical wrote...

At the end of the day, Hawke does some pretty epic stuff by 'normal standards'. But if you've played Origins, Hawke just doesn't compare to The Warden. The Warden makes things happen, I mean lets just list what the Warden does that I view as epic:
...

Don't forget:
- Saves a village from a zombie invasion with about 20 NPCs that you wanted to keep alive as much as possible (and not just because it made you stronger).
- Restores a stronghold that will stand for centuries

[xkg]

Curlain wrote...

Boiny Bunny wrote...


Hawke is not a catalyst for anything.  Anders is solely responsible.  Hawke has nothing to do with Isabela stealing the relic in the first place and bringing the Qunari to Kirkwall.  Hawke has nothing to do with Anders plans for the Chantry, and his eventual actions.  Hanging out with influential people (Isabela, Anders) does NOT make you influential, in the slightest.

Hawke did not start the revolution at all.  Had very little to do with it.  If the people of Thedas believe that Hawke did, it is only because of Varric's blatant lies and extaggeration.

And on this point, it's actually the Warden again and not Hawke who has the decisive influence on Anders fate.  It was the Warden's (or the Orlesian Warden) actions in Awakenings that spares Anders from the templars by recruiting him into the Grey Wardens, and then finds Justice and brings him fully out of the Fade.  And the Warden then brings Justice into the party with Anders and thus connects these two together.  So though unintentionally, it's the Warden who puts things in motion that led to the creation of Vengeance and enabled Anders to go on to do what he did 

with my import from awakening i feel even more disconected from story now

I hate Anders he is so annoying. I gave him to the Templars so how the hell did he became grey warden suddenly ? and justice ?

Whts the point in importing savegame ?

[Sabriana]

Curlain wrote...

Boiny Bunny wrote...


Hawke is not a catalyst for anything.  Anders is solely responsible.  Hawke has nothing to do with Isabela stealing the relic in the first place and bringing the Qunari to Kirkwall.  Hawke has nothing to do with Anders plans for the Chantry, and his eventual actions.  Hanging out with influential people (Isabela, Anders) does NOT make you influential, in the slightest.

Hawke did not start the revolution at all.  Had very little to do with it.  If the people of Thedas believe that Hawke did, it is only because of Varric's blatant lies and extaggeration.

And on this point, it's actually the Warden again and not Hawke who has the decisive influence on Anders fate.  It was the Warden's (or the Orlesian Warden) actions in Awakenings that spares Anders from the templars by recruiting him into the Grey Wardens, and then finds Justice and brings him fully out of the Fade.  And the Warden then brings Justice into the party with Anders and thus connects these two together.  So though unintentionally, it's the Warden who puts things in motion that led to the creation of Vengeance and enabled Anders to go on to do what he did 

Quite an intersting spin you put on this, I'm intrigued. I never thought of it that way, but I don't own Awakening, it simply never appealed to me at all.

To me, Anders is just a new NPC, like Aveline or Fenris are. I have no special connection to him, and in my 2 playthroughs I more or less ignored him completely.

But I do like this spin on it. Go Warden! She has more impact in DA 2 than Hawke ever did

[Tommy6860]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

Kasces wrote...

Act 1: Hawke is responsible for the Expedition going well. According to Nate no one had ever gone that deep into the 'Roads, not even Wardens, and one can argue if not for Hawke the Expedition would have never happened/ gone as far as it did, therefore no idol, much less succeed. This also leads to Hawke enhancing the wealth of all of Kirkwall.

Yep, absolutely.  And the expedition had nothing to do with anything.  It was not an event of any importance whatsover.  Rather, it was an event that was important for Hawke's family and Varric's family.  If Hawke had never existed, perhaps the expedition would have gone ahead anyway, perhaps not.  Either way, it has no grand impact on what happened in Kirkwall or Thedas.  The expdition was a non-event - simply Hawke's shot at 'get rich or die trying'.

Kasces wrote...

Act 2: You are instrumental in stoppping the Qunari. In fact, you're the reason, whether you gave Isabela up, killed the Arishok one on one or killed all opposers in the room. You did it and probably did it in the best way. Without Hawke, it would have gone way worse for everyone. Even if that isn't specifically true, you stopped the Qunari and one of there three main leaders. That says something.

Nope, not in the slightest.  Hawke kills about 30 Qunari and some other randoms (a few Carta thugs and elves) on the way to the keep.  He/she then goes in, kills about another 15 Qunari, and kills the Arishok/lets the Arishok leave.  If Hawke had never existed, Meredith's Templars would have easily handled the threat - as they more or less were when you first found them.  The Arishok had almost no Qunari left - only 300 landed with him, and many left before the events of the end of Act 2.

Hawke was the one who actually beheaded the Arishok - and sure, if it was a duel, that's no mean feat.  But sigificant?  Not at all.  Meredith with a few templar could have raided the keep easily (and were on the verge of doing so when you got there), and killed the Arishok.  Perhaps not in as glorious a manner, but that makes little difference.

Kasces wrote...

Act  3: You are forced to react to an escalating situation, and as far as history is concerned it matters which side you chose (becoming viscount, supporting the rebellion, etc)

So because it might have had a slim chance of happening anyway, it doesn't matter? So I guess since plenty of Wardens would've been available to stop the th blight the Warden was ultimately meaningless? I mean that is what he/she is known for, stopping the blight.

What are you talking about?  'Slim' chance of happening??  Every event that lead up to the escalation had nothing to do with Hawke.  Orsino had grown tired of the Tempars, and was beginning to cause a lot of trouble.  This made Meredith grasp them harder than ever, which caused Orsino to rebel even more.  This is explained in the cutscene between act 2 and 3.

Anders blows up the Chantry and was always going to, utterly irrespective of whether or not you help him.  Even if you refuse to help him, he still gathers what he needs and blows it up, sparking the war.

Hawke decision of 'which side to support' carries no meaning whatsoever.  Whichever side he/she picks, Hawke slays a few dozen mages/templar once Anders has set the conflict ablaze, then kills Orsino and Meredith.  If Hawke had never been there, they just would have fought one another until one was dead and the other on the brink of death to be taken down by somebody else.

Your point about the Grey Wardens makes no sense.  It has been confirmed literally, that if the Warden had never existed, Ferelden would have fallen.  Alistair and the other party members would have been killed, resulting in no Grey Wardens in all of Ferelden (due to Loghain's madness and rejecting all Grey Wardens at the border from other countries).

Kasces wrote...

Basically, the story is even possible because of Hawke and who he associates with, and who he associates with matters. Praise the Warden all you want, but without Alistair, a companion, there would be no Landsmeet and the Warden would've failed. Without Morrigan, a companion, you can't survive the Archdemon and would be even less legendary among Wardens. Companion importance is a good thing. Anders aids Hawke (and Hawke may indirectly help Anders, which matters to the public), Isabela is the reason the Qunari were even in the vicinity, Aveline, who came with Hawke from Ferelden, became head of the City Guard, etc. Most importantly, Varric. You have to take into account there's only a legend of Hawke because Hawke is the catalyst for a continental wide revolution, and Varric and others no doubt told the story once everyone else simply dissapeared. This left room for Hawke's legend to be exxagerated and gotten wrong, eveident of Cassandra who apparently thought Hawke simply showed up with a bunch of badasses to purposely instigate Qunari, bring back old dwaven stuff and overthrow off the Chantry.

Hawke is not a catalyst for anything.  Anders is solely responsible.  Hawke has nothing to do with Isabela stealing the relic in the first place and bringing the Qunari to Kirkwall.  Hawke has nothing to do with Anders plans for the Chantry, and his eventual actions.  Hanging out with influential people (Isabela, Anders) does NOT make you influential, in the slightest.

Hawke did not start the revolution at all.  Had very little to do with it.  If the people of Thedas believe that Hawke did, it is only because of Varric's blatant lies and extaggeration.

And yes, the Warden did need the help of others, who were partly important in their own rights.  That doesn't take away from the importance of the Warden.

The point is, if the Warden had never existed, what would be different?

1) Alistair and entire party are killed
2) Ferelden falls to the blight (the implications of this could be no more than what I've written, or could imply a 400 year war against the Darkspawn for the rest of the world)
3) Hawke is killed at Lothering, as Flemeth does not require him/her to 'save' her from the Warden

If Hawke had never existed, what would be different?

Zip.  Nadda.  A completely unimportant expedition may not have happened.  Meredith and Orsino would have dealt with the Arishok instead of Hawke.  Due to the extreme actions of Anders, the conflict would have blown up in the exact same manner anyway.  So...pretty much nothing?

Kasces wrote...

You can say the game didn't give you much choice outside the cosmetic, sure, but Hawke not important? Hardly. I don't hear anyone outside of Ferelden caring about the Hero of Ferelden so much they wrote a book about him.
Actually, that makes my Kausmere Suranna a little sad. Forget I brought that up.

That's exactly right.  The Warden is somebody who did something important, and was forgotten quickly, because nobody ever really even saw him/her, and there was no dwarf to spread the legend.

Hawke is known because he/she is a political figure.  He/she lived in Kirkwall for 7 years, became a noble that attended many parties etc. and had his/her name spread all over the place by a serious extaggerating dwarf (Varric).

The Warden was to most, a mysterious figure who brought 4 large armies to Denerim, slaughtered the darkspawn and the Archdemon, then disappeared into the winds.  The Warden never spent much time interacting with anybody outside of his/her party, and thus never really had the opportunity to 'become famous'.

Fame is not a measure of importance.

Well said, I must say. In a nutshell, it comes down to simply being the adventure of the PC that ends with a HUH?!

[Roxlimn]

I have not seen a coherent commentary about the game not being epic that didn't just want Hawke to be as powerful as the Warden and to replay yet another juvenile power fantasy.

I get that many gamers like to feel powerful and potent within the game world and to essentially be the center of the universe that everything revolves around.

That said, a protagonist with more realistic and lesser influence on the events around him is neither a failure in execution or an inferior story. It's just a DIFFERENT one.

[Mecher3k]

Roxlimn wrote...

I have not seen a coherent commentary about the game not being epic that didn't just want Hawke to be as powerful as the Warden and to replay yet another juvenile power fantasy.

I get that many gamers like to feel powerful and potent within the game world and to essentially be the center of the universe that everything revolves around.

That said, a protagonist with more realistic and lesser influence on the events around him is neither a failure in execution or an inferior story. It's just a DIFFERENT one.

Or maybe we want our choices to have, get this, MEANING?

It's funny you say you have yet to see a coherent commentart about why DA2 is not epic, and yet call does who like DA:O's storyline an "juvenile power fantasy."

Yea because having a game were our choices matter and we have an actual impact on the story is so childish, amirite?

[AAHook2]

I just played through the Dwarf Noble Origin again and I've just reached Lothering. This portion of the game alone has been "Epic". It's been months since I've had another run through, but this game is still amazing.
It feels like just as much has happened in this first portion of the game as had happened in the entirety of Dragon Age 2. The story drives pretty straight forward but has a lot of texture and complexity.
Even at this early stage you're confronted with a complicated tangle of obstacles. Sure, it's your "standard" save the world scenario, but from whom am I saving the world from? The Blight and Darkspawn? Sure, I guess. But then what for and why does this happen again and again? Is it a "True Blight"? Who or what is the Archdemon? A fallen god? I don't know at this point. Then again, what are Flemeth's designs in this affair? WHY did she choose to save me and Alistair? REALLY why? Is Morrigan just a plant? Does she serve Flemeth? It doesn't seem that she does so completely, having spoken to her about it. Does Morrigan have her own scheme?
What is Alistair hiding? What's his story? He knows and knows of important men in the world, the Wardens, the Arls and Bannorn, the Templars and Chantry. He's deeply embroiled in this larger world that a dwarf doesn't think to ponder on, yet he defers to your lead and hesitates to trust his own sense of direction and purpose.
And what of yourself? You're a cast out noble from Orzammar, betrayed by his own people and the politics of that world. What should you care about the above ground troubles of Ferelden? Do you want to just go back and take revenge on your brother, on your own people? Or do you actually start to care about your new life on the Surface? Who are these people? What are these places, these settings, these open air intrigues? What does it mean to be a Warden? A Dwarf Warden...last of your kind. Lothering will be just the beginning of your quest to find out, and maybe you'll survive long enough to see Ferelden saved. To be a hero. Let's begin then.

Jeez, haven't even entered Lothering yet and already it's epic.

[nuclearpengu1nn]

i too was looking for an epic moment like in DAO
when you save Ferelden and become a hero
or
when you save the City of Amarantine

in DA2 even becoming champion of Kirkwall didn't feel epic

[Kenrae]

Why must every single story made by Bioware be "epic"? Frankly, I'm quite tired of so much epicness in games, I want some variation. There are many kinds of good stories and not all of them are epic.

[xkg]

Kenrae wrote...

Why must every single story made by Bioware be "epic"? Frankly, I'm quite tired of so much epicness in games, I want some variation. There are many kinds of good stories and not all of them are epic.

because i want to forget about grayness of everyday life
If i want to play some non epic daily hores ill go play sims or such

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

I don't know... Not pre-ordering it then later not buying it in a store felt pretty epic to me.

[DJBare]

GreyWarden36 wrote...

in DA2 even becoming champion of Kirkwall didn't feel epic

My reaction to that scene
Meredith: Seems we have a new champion.
Me: eh?, what happened to the old one?

It's even worse on a second play through because you know what Meredith will become, and you think yeah riiight, that's such an important announcement coming from you <_<

Yes there were minimal epic moments, but "overall" the game itself is not epic, as in an epic journey.

[Stegoceras]

To me the lack of epic'ness was because I never really got what the story was about, there was no red line I could follow, I just drudged forth, fight after fight, after fight, after fight, after fight,... well you get the picture. Because of that, things just hit me as they came around the corner, never giving much meaning to the situation I ended up in.