190 réponses à ce sujet

[Mecher3k]

Roxlimn wrote...

What's Japan's motivation for blowing up their nuclear power plants? They don't. They didn't want that to happen.

Ok with that quote you just proven yourself to be a complete idiot below worth talking to. I can see how your mind has DA2 so warped if your think Japan caused units 1-3 at one of the power plants to lose their cooling and go into partial meltdowns.

[Merced652]

Roxlimn wrote...

You want to do a whole year's worth of ultimately pointless side quests? Really?

We already got that, it was called act1. Personally i would've preferred doing stuff for the mercenaries or smugglers instead of that ****. 

[DeathStride]

Roxlimn wrote...
DeathStride:

If you guys think that the majority of the quests in Act 1 were just to make gold, then you're missing the entirety of the setup of DA2. Go to YouTube and play the narrative bits again, in sequence, knowing what you know of later events.

I'm not saying the dev's intended it that way, but it certainly came across that way with the way they presented it. There's a reason that Act 1 is almost unanimously considered the slowest and least interesting in the game.

But. I do want to hear your take on it. Tell me what Act 1 was about(besides just a big leadup to the lyrium idol).[not being sarcastic]

[Mecher3k]

Roxlimn wrote...

DeathStride:

If you guys think that the majority of the quests in Act 1 were just to make gold, then you're missing the entirety of the setup of DA2. Go to YouTube and play the narrative bits again, in sequence, knowing what you know of later events.

Plot points that you have ZERO control over. Events happen in a certain way no matter what. Ya, so much better then DA:O when I can have an entire circle mage be put to death or save the remaining mages, or bring back the ability to make golems for the dwarves, etc.

[Bostur]

Roxlimn wrote...

DeathStride:

If you guys think that the majority of the quests in Act 1 were just to make gold, then you're missing the entirety of the setup of DA2. Go to YouTube and play the narrative bits again, in sequence, knowing what you know of later events.

Then I missed the entirety of the setup. No I won't go to youtube and watch the vids. Its a game and the story should work as a game.

Admittedly after 20 hours of gameplay and nothing going on at all except random occurences, I gave up and didn't see the rest of the story.

If the story in a novel doesn't start within the first 100 pages I will put the book aside and never go back. Poor workmanship in storytelling is not the same as a mature story.


In terms of DAO I didn't write off the framework plot. It's essential for the storytelling style as a framework. I said it was 'weak' because it needs to fade into the background to support the characters. But it serves a purpose as a backdrop.

In DA2 the city of Kirkwall might have served as a backdrop, if it was a believable city. If we could be convinced it had real people struggling for a future, making their fortune.
In "Assasin's Creed" Florence felt like a real city, in GTA Liberty City felt real, in DA2 its just random buildings with robotic NPCs.

[Roxlimn]

Mecher3k:

Ok with that quote you just proven yourself to be a complete idiot below worth talking to. I can see how your mind has DA2 so warped if your think Japan caused units 1-3 at one of the power plants to lose their cooling and go into partial meltdowns.

Er... ...that's not even near what I said. You have a serious problem with reading comprehension, dude. Is English not your primary language?

Merced652:

We already got that, it was called act1. Personally i would've preferred doing stuff for the mercenaries or smugglers instead of that ****.

We have an example of that. There's one quest in Act 1 which exemplifies the stuff you do for the mercs or smugglers. They weren't very interesting, either one. If you like that compared to the actual quests presented, you have very strange tastes.

Deathstride:

I'm not saying the dev's intended it that way, but it certainly came across that way with the way they presented it. There's a reason that Act 1 is almost unanimously considered the slowest and least interesting in the game.

But. I do want to hear your take on it. Tell me what Act 1 was about(besides just a big leadup to the lyrium idol).[not being sarcastic]

Don't worry. Sarcasm is hard to convey in written form, and it's a bad rhetorical device anyways. I don't assume it unless it's blatant.

Act 1 is, in many ways, similar to the opening chapters of a classic novel. I don't mean those new dime novels that the kids are into these days. Those are ADD versions of the real classics - all action, all the time.

Most of the quests you're doing in Act 1 are either Companion Quests, Rumors, or Main Plot. Companion Quests establish, introduce, and develop main characters. The Rumors and Main Plots in Act 1 lay down the foundation of what will come after.

For instance, Blackpowder Promise seems like a random pointless quest, as does Shepherding Wolves, but both those quests are instrumental for why Act 2 ultimately unfolds the way it does. The Arishock wouldn't ask for Hawke in Act 2 if he wasn't already impressed with how Hawke conducted himself in Act 1. Likewise, Petrice wouldn't deal with Hawke the way she does if he was just some random rich guy (and we wouldn't know who she was anyway if not for Shepherding Wolves).

Even the seemingly random missing persons quest turns sinister in Act 2 and eventually becomes All That Remains, which ties into how the First Enchanter eventually acts in the final sequence.

[Roxlimn]

Bostur wrote...

Roxlimn wrote...

DeathStride:

If you guys think that the majority of the quests in Act 1 were just to make gold, then you're missing the entirety of the setup of DA2. Go to YouTube and play the narrative bits again, in sequence, knowing what you know of later events.

Then I missed the entirety of the setup. No I won't go to youtube and watch the vids. Its a game and the story should work as a game.

Admittedly after 20 hours of gameplay and nothing going on at all except random occurences, I gave up and didn't see the rest of the story.

If the story in a novel doesn't start within the first 100 pages I will put the book aside and never go back. Poor workmanship in storytelling is not the same as a mature story.

In terms of DAO I didn't write off the framework plot. It's essential for the storytelling style as a framework. I said it was 'weak' because it needs to fade into the background to support the characters. But it serves a purpose as a backdrop.

In DA2 the city of Kirkwall might have served as a backdrop, if it was a believable city. If we could be convinced it had real people struggling for a future, making their fortune.
In "Assasin's Creed" Florence felt like a real city, in GTA Liberty City felt real, in DA2 its just random buildings with robotic NPCs.

A story that is nonlinear is not necessarily poorly written.  It's just not very linear.  Sometimes, there isn't another way to tell how something happened because that's how events unfolded.

A story that's structured in this way doesn't necessarily mean that it's mature, but it does indicate a greater degree of sophistication, and requires a greater degree of insight or patience from the reader (or player).

Les Miserables doesn't really start going until well past the hundred page mark, and that's generally considered a great story told in a great way (which is still kind of linear, actually).  Granted, not everyone can enjoy such great classics.  I would not recommend that novel for anyone who can't read quickly.

[Bostur]

Roxlimn wrote...

A story that is nonlinear is not necessarily poorly written.  It's just not very linear.  Sometimes, there isn't another way to tell how something happened because that's how events unfolded.

A story that's structured in this way doesn't necessarily mean that it's mature, but it does indicate a greater degree of sophistication, and requires a greater degree of insight or patience from the reader (or player).

Les Miserables doesn't really start going until well past the hundred page mark, and that's generally considered a great story told in a great way (which is still kind of linear, actually).  Granted, not everyone can enjoy such great classics.  I would not recommend that novel for anyone who can't read quickly.

Agreed. I never criticized lack of linearity. I criticized lack of motivation.

You seem to try to retrofit the motivation. Explaining that it makes sense in a later chapter. That basically seems like telling a story backwards. Maybe Varric as a narrator could have been used to keep our curiosity going if he had been used with a bit more courage. I can imagine storytelling similar to Pulp Fiction.

I got to give you credit for your consistent condescending tone. In my defense I think 20 hours is a lot of patience. I could easily have read 500 pages in that time. Or the first volume of my favorite novel "The Long Ships".

Amazing storytelling doesn't really need a plot. But games doesn't have stories of that quality. I know that, and you ought to know that. So games need to take an easy way out and use litterary 'prefabs', tested narrative structures that we recognize and can relate to almost instantly. When that happens we fill in the blanks. In the same way as we fill in the blanks of a comic book or a Western movie. But we need to be able to relate to what is going on at some level, and we need to be able to recognize the mechanics of the storytelling. Our previous experiences and expectations are very important in that regard.
So maybe the story of Hawke would have worked better if it happened in Paris or London. Then we might have imagined breathing the heavy cold air of fog and coal, trudging through muddy streets with an empty stomach, feeling genuinly pissed at the mere existance of a lady in a somewhat clean dress. How dare she!

[DeathStride]

Roxlimn wrote...
Most of the quests you're doing in Act 1 are either Companion Quests, Rumors, or Main Plot. Companion Quests establish, introduce, and develop main characters. The Rumors and Main Plots in Act 1 lay down the foundation of what will come after.

I figured that you would probably mention the Act 1 as the exposition where, as you put it, "the foundation of what will come after" is laid. I have no problem with the carefully crafted hooks that connect you to each of those larger plotlines later in the game like Shepherding Wolves and Blackpowder Courtesy, although on the latter I feel they ought to have come up with a better reason for you to dive into the Qunari/Tal Vashoth conflict than what they did.

My main beef is with the reasoning they provide the player for continuing the game and pushing through- the overarching goal, so to speak. That goal, simply put, is to make money. Not only that, you're making money in order to make more money!(Since the DR expedition is supposed to be simply an investment for future profit.) I expect better from Bioware, and especially Gaider(whom I have the utmost respect for, albeit less now after having played DA2) than "do stuff for money. the end."

They were going for a "Hawke's a normal guy, just like you and me" approach and unfortunately for them they succeeded completely. I'm all about the "breaking the norm" and "pushing forward the genre" but at the end of the day, Dragon Age, and the universe it is based in, is High Fantasy. People who pick up games and expansions in the series expect, and rightly so, "epic" adventure. Spending an entire year(~15 hours for me) in a dead end city doing dead end jobs without so much as an overarching goal to keep you pushing on is most definitely not epic by any definition.

Many people argue that Hawke's journey wasn't supposed to be so much "epic" as a personal and deep character development arc that you get to experience over a decade(although the game trailers and story details provided prior to release sharply conflict with that claim- those are most definitely shooting for epic). But again, what's so "deep and personal" about spending 15 or more hours just grinding for gold?

The only character development you get for Hawke is the one brief quest you do to raid the Amell estate for a will. They kill of a sibling of yours before you have the slightest chance of learning about them or becoming attached, leaving the gamer wondering why exactly he/she should give a damn about this random NPC stranger dying and also making the mother grieving and raging at Hawke seem incredibly forced and artificial. Additionally, within moments of that death, another random NPC stranger dies, at which point you being to wonder if there's even any meaning to a character death anymore.

I would probably continue voicing my disappointment indefinitely but I'll leave it at that. Basically BW "broke the norm" and left a High Fantasy story in the dust for a more "deep, personal experience," disappointing many people, and then went on to fail at providing that meaningful experience anyway, making the rest of us who originally supported their decision look like fools. Act 1 exemplifies what I'm referring to the best, but even the rest of the story feels hollow because of the static nature of the setting, aka Kirkwall and surrounding areas, that stay almost entirely identical over the course of a decade.

Disclaimer to Moderators: I sincerely request that this thread be moved to the Story & Discussion Forum because it is nigh impossible to discuss anything meaningful about the topic without spoilers.

Edit: Act 1 play time, wrong original number.

Modifié par DeathStride, 13 avril 2011 - 07:38 .

[AAHook2]

Reminds me of the book In the Skin of a Lion. It's basically the tale of a turn of the 20th Century town and its people as it grows from a rural farm and logging region into a full city. It centered around the building of a viaduct. Long story short, it was a meandering, dream-like narrative with its characters wandering in and out at different stages of their lives with the backdrop of a city going through a similar process in its development. It all took place in one city, yet it played with time in a way which I suspect Dragon Age 2 purports to do. That is what was epic. Watching the city grow along with its people.
That's what was missing from Kirkwall. Nothing changed really. And if Kirkwall did change, it didn't mirror the change that was happening in the people that made up the bulk of the narrative. The city of Kirkwall was old long before Hawke and Co ever wandered its streets. Still for all of their toils and efforts, even the upheaval of war and unrest, the characters really didn't change the city in any meaningful way until the end of the game.
This lack of change in the environment rubbed off on the characters in such a way that when they went through a major change in their lives, it didn't feel as significant as it should have.
There must have been a dozen instances where you you are introduced to a character who appears to have some knowledge of or history with Hawke in the year of his or her service to repay entry into the city. That character says hello, then goodbye, and you're thinking "Hm, that dwarf in the market knows me and even says 'Don't get dead, Hawke' as if that is something significant between them. This will probably elaborate details about Hawke, the dwarf and the time Hawke has been in the city." And then...nothing happens. That dwarf says the same thing every time you go near him, and once an Act, his comments vary. What kind of storytelling is that? I was left thinking, what was the point in introducing a character like that?
I read in In the Skin of a Lion..10 years ago. Haven't gotten around to reading it again, but I remember that it was lyrical and beautiful. The scenes drew a picture in your mind that was heartbreaking and almost cinematic. It really wasn't what I would normally call my cup of tea as far as books go, but I respect this piece of literature and I enjoyed reading it. It was epic. Dragon Age 2 had a similar set up, yet failed to feel balanced in a way that would allow a similar epic-ness.

[Sabriana]

@ AAHook

I agree.

Slight spoilers below. Look out!!!


I also had that feeling with Tomwise (Samwise??, lol). He says to Hawke "after all we've been trough.." Well, darnit! I want to know what she and Tomwise have been through. It must have been significant enough for him to feel friendship/kinship for her, and I wish to be partial of it. Same goes for Potion Lady. I want to know what part she played.

I'm glad Hawke knows. I, the player, certainly have no clue what they are talking about.


/Slight Spoilers. Y'all can look again



It's a sad day when "Cradle of Rome" shows a better evolution of a city due to player input that a DA title with "Kirkwall" in it.

[Roxlimn]

DeathStride:

Not to put too fine a point on it, but players who buy the game who want "super-epic adventure" right from the get go are better serviced by playing some hyper-kinetic FPS. RPGs are traditionally a slow burn, and I'd prefer them to stay truer to that history.

Hawke himself simply wants to survive and make money, because, well, that's pretty much the motivation for action of the majority of real people, but the player has a more pressing motivation - he wants to know (or should want to know) what the hell had happened. Cassandra is dragging Varric to a questioning about what appears to be a catastrophic event. We want to know how that came to pass. Or at least most players should. I don't why so many players just forget that framing 10 minutes into the game. It's like they all have collective ADD.

The only character development you get for Hawke is the one brief quest you do to raid the Amell estate for a will. They kill of a sibling of yours before you have the slightest chance of learning about them or becoming attached, leaving the gamer wondering why exactly he/she should give a damn about this random NPC stranger dying and also making the mother grieving and raging at Hawke seem incredibly forced and artificial. Additionally, within moments of that death, another random NPC stranger dies, at which point you being to wonder if there's even any meaning to a character death anymore.

Neither of those deaths were meant to be dramatically emphasized points. That's kind of the point. The characters are barely developed. The deaths are mainly backstory, which are referred to constantly later on. This technique is used in other stories. For instance, 006 is killed shortly after GoldenEye starts, with barely any development in his character. His death is supposed to be significant later on.

Granted, those scenes were badly written and acted, but not because the characters were not developed enough. Those deaths were not of a narrative nature that requires that.

This continued insistence by critics of the game on imposing traditional staid, simplistic game fare narration on something that's clearly more sophisticated is what gets my goat. It's not exactly the best caviar in the world, but you're getting served good stuff here. And you're complaining that it's not Cheeto's? Granted, some people prefer Cheetos, but that's no reason to say that the thing is objectively garbage just because it's not Cheetos.

[Bostur]

Roxlimn wrote...

This continued insistence by critics of the game on imposing traditional staid, simplistic game fare narration on something that's clearly more sophisticated is what gets my goat. It's not exactly the best caviar in the world, but you're getting served good stuff here. And you're complaining that it's not Cheeto's? Granted, some people prefer Cheetos, but that's no reason to say that the thing is objectively garbage just because it's not Cheetos.

The thing is if you serve caviar it has to be good. In this context a mediocre steak is better than mediocre caviar.

Deviating from standard fare can make some really amazing results, but its a risky shot. Chances are that it will miss. For that reason I don't think its a good approach in a pop context like a video game. And remember we need to fill in the blanks, we can only do that if we recognize the conventions.

In a comic strip three stripes means that an object moves fast. Thats not how a fast moving object looks like in real life, we only make that association because we know that convention. If that convention is changed we may get confused, because we are unable to decode the message.

Video games use short hand techniques in a similar way. You can't fit 500 pages of core storyline into a game that is supposed to have cinematic action. So corners needs to be cut, and the way to do that is to stick to available conventions where possible and let them do some of the work.

The Fantasy genre in particular makes use of a lot of tradition, and is very well suited for fitting into a game. We know half the story even before we reach the loading screen. But that also makes it much harder to make changes. If changes are to be made, a lot of attention is necessary to explain how they work.
Dragon Age elves is one area that changes our expectations. DA:O spends a lot of time explaining why these elves are different than the standard fare, why some live in cities and why most are household servants and generally looked down upon. Its not a hard concept to understand in general, but because they are elves and we expect something else it takes more effort to make this new association.

If we are to accept the motivation of making money as a valid goal instead of killing the big bad world eating monster, this new goal needs to be explained in much more detail and make much more sense logically than if the story had used a traditional approach.

[AAHook2]

Sabriana wrote...

@ AAHook

I agree.

Slight spoilers below. Look out!!!


I also had that feeling with Tomwise (Samwise??, lol). He says to Hawke "after all we've been trough.." Well, darnit! I want to know what she and Tomwise have been through. It must have been significant enough for him to feel friendship/kinship for her, and I wish to be partial of it. Same goes for Potion Lady. I want to know what part she played.

I'm glad Hawke knows. I, the player, certainly have no clue what they are talking about.


/Slight Spoilers. Y'all can look again



It's a sad day when "Cradle of Rome" shows a better evolution of a city due to player input that a DA title with "Kirkwall" in it.

*spoilers for DA:O*
I'm playing through Origins again, very slowly because of time on my hands being limited. I just got done having a 5 minute conversation with Morrigan about a certain mirror her mother Flemeth took from her as a child...and only then did it occur to me how lyrical it was that by the end of Witch Hunt, she disappears through a magic mirror to raise HER child with or without you.

In Dragon Age 2, there just isn't that level of storytelling in sight.
I think it's largely to do with the vaunted conversation wheel limiting what your character can say, ask or reply to another companion at any given time. I had this conversation with Morrigan just after finding Dog at the abandoned farm on the way to Lothering. This is near the beginning of our relatinship and knowing from previous run throughs, this conversation has a significant connection to the very end of the narrative. It's also subtle enough that I really didn't think about it until...well, now.
For those who harp on about the plot of Origins being about defeating some great evil.      You can craft the story so that it's about a love story. That's what it turned into for me.

#*SPOILERS DRAGON AGE 2**
I tried to do the same with Anders in Dragon Age 2 with a female Hawke, but it was...it just felt so hollow. It felt so forced. It was like: OH, a flirting option. Let's try it. (two quests later) Oh another flirting comment. Anders: "I love you." Hawke:" Uh, I guess I, uh...love you too. Sort of abrupt there. So yeah, you're my LI heheh...horaaaay...ehem."
You then play through the game with this awkward love story with absolutely no attachment. Then he leads us on a merry fetch it quest, then blows up the person who could have really helped to restore peace in the city. What a wonderful lyrical bit of storytelling THAT was.

[EccentricSage]

Bostur wrote...

DeathStride wrote...

The biggest, most important, and single most epic part of this game- the mage revolution of Thedas, isn't part of this game. They do the worst thing an artist can do with a story, they tell you, instead of showing you. All we get is a "and so the dissent spread to the other circles and both the x and the y factions turned against the Chantry so yeah..." instead. That is probably THE lamest and weakest way they could have introduced that story element.

I completely agree. Sometimes it seems they completely discard what could have been the tastiest bits. When I was aware that Hawke was about to sell himself/herself as an indentured servant either to smugglers or mercenaries, my thought was "Hey, thats a great setting for a story", and then they just went ahead and skipped the whole thing.

I definitely agree with you guys on this.  The framed narative was too much of a cop out, the way it was used. 

I don't think it was the writing team's call, though.  They had very little time, and typically if another department goes 'OMG, we don't have time to impliment all of that!' or 'We can't aford to budget for that', then awesome stuff gets cut.  I mean, really, we KNOW the lead level designer is lazy as hell, for starters, and his excuse is constantly 'Hawk is just that awesome, and in game logic isn't important'.  So for those others around here blaming the writers, think again!  How can you write an epic story when the people implimenting it talk about wanting it to be like Grand Theft Auto or say that in game logic isn't important IN A FREEKN' RPG. 

I also think escaping Lothering should have actually involved... you know... actually having to escape Lothering.

If the next game gets the same development time as this one, all bets are off.  You can't make an epic and intricate RPG in a year and a half.  I look forward to David's next book, though.

Modifié par EccentricSage, 14 avril 2011 - 02:22 .

[Kasces]

 

Modifié par Kasces, 17 avril 2011 - 02:08 .