297 réponses à ce sujet

[RavenB]

Oneiropolos wrote...

Playing Devil's Advocate:

Yes. If you were an enemy country, attacking the White House is acceptable. It was, in fact, done in the War of 1812. Burned, actually. However, the nation was in fact aware they were in a war.On both sides. That's the catch.

Anders might have been acting for all mages, but he didn't precisely actually give them a heads up and the 'enemy' was unaware the strike was coming. An action done by ONE MAN is not a formal declaration of war. It was a terrorist attack...and even Anders recognized it as something that was NOT justice. That's why he believed he should die as well for the innocents he just killed.

Warning someone you're about to attack them sounds like the worst battle plan I've ever heard. Especially in the case of Anders and the mages where you're vastly out gunned and surprise is going to be the only element in your favor.

[JabbaDaHutt30]

RavenB wrote...

Elthina was an extremely powerful figure in the very organization in charge of locking up mages. Arguably even the strongest in Kirkwall. She had the opportunity many times to put support behind Orsino and the mages, but she would not. I don't see how people fail to see that she was just as involved in the situation as Meredith or Orsino.

Blowing up the Chantry was an act of war. Were there casualties who weren't of Chantry employ? I'm sure, but so is the way of war. When a military base is bombed, there are innocents there. Soldiers families, non-military employees. "Surgical strikes" in real life almost always lead to casualties and injuries unintended. That's just how it goes.

targeting a military base = targeting a chapel?

[Yellopranda]

Oneiropolos wrote...

She does admit she considers things in the Maker's hands for most of the game. But when it came to Meredith and Orsino, she actually explicitly states the OPPOSITE of what you say. She says she is talking to both sides and trying to find a compromise and having trouble for obvious reasons. It's why she's so crucial for Anders to get rid of. It's why Meredith panics to prevent Orsino from moving up the steps to the Chantry with "You will not disturb her Grace!" It's why Orsino believes that going to the Grand Cleric is a good idea in the first place. Meredith doesn't want to be told to go back to her rooms like a good little girl again, and Orsino clearly does actually trust the Grand Cleric to care. Now, you can judge Elthina on her EFFECTIVENESS, which was admittedly low. But she clearly was speaking with both. 

At one point in the game, you can basically accuse her of needing to do more. I mean after the speech Orsino gives against Meredith, I think. And she gives you this sad smile and says you're overestimating her actual powers. Elthina wasn't effective enough at what she was doing to manage to bring about an actual peace... and what she probably should have done was wrote the Divine and go "We need a new Knight Commander. Now." but she grew up in Kirkwall and I think that gave her a blindness to the true actual insanity of the situation. It doesn't excuse her, it's just an observation. I certainly don't think she deserved to die for it as some people cheer over her death. Elthina's major downfall was in not doing enough... which is something... if we're honest....probably 95% of the people on the boards are guilty of. There are probably many things each of us can do to help someone else's life better each day. A charity we could donate to instead of choosing to go see a movie, or go out to eat or buy one more game. I'm just as guilty of it. Or are people going to pretend like they -don't- know about world disasters when they happen to their fellow man? That they don't know anything about what is happening in lesser priveledged countries..or even your own city? I don't know. Maybe people get a glee out of seeing Elthina die because they get to see a subconcious part of them that isn't doing 'enough' pay for it with her. But I don't want to die because I splurged today on some books that have no value except entertainment when I could have donated that money to the red cross. 

The point is. Anders has been confirmed by two writers now, including his own, as wanting to die. The Arishok challenges you to the death in what he views as honorable combat. Meredith is the one who decides she's going to kill you and then tries to kill everyone who says she's insane. Elthina? Dies not even because of her actual failing, that she didn't do enough. She dies, by Ander's justification of that he NEEDS TO REMOVE COMPROMISE. He's actually worried she'll do something that will keep the peace still! So she has to die! The fact this is applauded is one of those things that make me just shake my head. You can dislike the chantry. But talking gleefully about how you hate it so much you'd help Anders kill everyone inside who had no chance to ever defend themselves and those who die by debris who had nothing to do with the Chantry? Bleh. I'm glad I just can't understand that stance. 

Some very good points here. I said in my initial post that i thought Elthina was not as bad as the others, but i still think political leaders should be held to a higher standard than the average person. She has assumed a postition of power and influence and with that comes certain obligations and responsibilities. She doesn't deserve to die though. People who think she should be killed merely for incompetence or turning a blind eye... Not sure i can summon enough hate to feel that way.

Anders decides, on his own, not only to become judge, jury and executioner, but kill even more innocent people in the process. Much like terrorist have done in our world. Felt that their conviction is ample justification for to ignore the foundations on which modern democracies rests, like due process and respect for human life and taken matters into their own hands. The ultimate selfishness. Anders desires are to him the only that matter.

[RavenB]

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

RavenB wrote...

Elthina was an extremely powerful figure in the very organization in charge of locking up mages. Arguably even the strongest in Kirkwall. She had the opportunity many times to put support behind Orsino and the mages, but she would not. I don't see how people fail to see that she was just as involved in the situation as Meredith or Orsino.

Blowing up the Chantry was an act of war. Were there casualties who weren't of Chantry employ? I'm sure, but so is the way of war. When a military base is bombed, there are innocents there. Soldiers families, non-military employees. "Surgical strikes" in real life almost always lead to casualties and injuries unintended. That's just how it goes.

targeting a military base = targeting a chapel?

If the chapel in question commands one of the largest military forces in the known world, then absolutely.

[AlexXIV]

Oneiropolos wrote...

Playing Devil's Advocate:

Yes. If you were an enemy country, attacking the White House is acceptable. It was, in fact, done in the War of 1812. Burned, actually. However, the nation was in fact aware they were in a war.On both sides. That's the catch.

Anders might have been acting for all mages, but he didn't precisely actually give them a heads up and the 'enemy' was unaware the strike was coming. An action done by ONE MAN is not a formal declaration of war. It was a terrorist attack...and even Anders recognized it as something that was NOT justice. That's why he believed he should die as well for the innocents he just killed.

Well yes I wasn't trying to imply that just blowing up the white house for fun was legitimate. Of course a war needs first to be declared. Also to declare a war I guess you'd need to be somewhat of a legal representative of a nation or something. Just saying buildings that represent political power are always targets. And as such they should be guarded/protected as such. I am sure if it was as easy to plant a bomb in the White House as it was for Anders in the Chantry, it'd be blown up as well by now.

[JabbaDaHutt30]

RavenB wrote...

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

RavenB wrote...

Elthina was an extremely powerful figure in the very organization in charge of locking up mages. Arguably even the strongest in Kirkwall. She had the opportunity many times to put support behind Orsino and the mages, but she would not. I don't see how people fail to see that she was just as involved in the situation as Meredith or Orsino.

Blowing up the Chantry was an act of war. Were there casualties who weren't of Chantry employ? I'm sure, but so is the way of war. When a military base is bombed, there are innocents there. Soldiers families, non-military employees. "Surgical strikes" in real life almost always lead to casualties and injuries unintended. That's just how it goes.

targeting a military base = targeting a chapel?

If the chapel in question commands one of the largest military forces in the known world, then absolutely.

most people there were probably civlians: sisters, priests etc. 

[Oneiropolos]

Darth Krytie wrote...

Oneiropolos wrote...

 She dies, by Ander's justification of that he NEEDS TO REMOVE COMPROMISE. He's actually worried she'll do something that will keep the peace still! So she has to die! The fact this is applauded is one of those things that make me just shake my head. You can dislike the chantry. But talking gleefully about how you hate it so much you'd help Anders kill everyone inside who had no chance to ever defend themselves and those who die by debris who had nothing to do with the Chantry? Bleh. I'm glad I just can't understand that stance. 

I don't applaud the death of anyone, really. However, I think Anders' decision was founded in that Any Compromise would be comprised of something fundamentally against his cause: mages remaining "prisoners". So, any "peace" would include accepting some measure of what he's fighting againt and then, in time, lead right back to where they are when he decided on his...course.

I think some of the support comes from a larger view...the Chantry has gone on how many exalted marches/holy wars? Killed how many innocents in their religious zeal? And now, even tangentally, support a system fraught with abuses...so, it's not that specific Chantry people are generally cheering to see destroyed. And it's not dismissing the lives lost who had nothing to do with anything. It's the destruction of a symbol of oppression.

Logically, I can definitely see why ANDERS took the stance. But Anders isn't making the excuses for his actions that alot of his more radical sympathizers are. Anders saw it as a means to get rid of compromise. And he knew innocents would die.. his banter with Isabela acknowledged that. Anders doesn't excuse his actions. He even says there is nothing you can say to him that he hasn't already said to himself. While Anders doesn't precisely regret his action, he doesn't gleefully see it as sticking it to the chantry, whoo hoo! (I'm not saying you, personally, have expressed that viewpoint. I've just seen it over the boards.) Even if you spare him, he is seeing it as you giving him grace he didn't feel he deserved. It makes him a tragic killer, really, because he is honestly doing what he feels is necessary and on a rivalry path, there is every indication Anders wants to try to find a way to stop it and Vengeance is the one that forces it through. 

But I stand by what I've said before... if Anders had blown up the chantry but also used his magic to shield the lives of the ones inside, it would have been a much more impressive move to me. It's destroying the symbol but not becoming the monster. Of course, then there'd still be whether the Grand Cleric would approve the Right of Anullment and the story might have ended really differently, but still.. it is just a theoretical scenario that I wish could have been taken. We all can wish something was done different.

[AlexXIV]

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

RavenB wrote...

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

RavenB wrote...

Elthina was an extremely powerful figure in the very organization in charge of locking up mages. Arguably even the strongest in Kirkwall. She had the opportunity many times to put support behind Orsino and the mages, but she would not. I don't see how people fail to see that she was just as involved in the situation as Meredith or Orsino.

Blowing up the Chantry was an act of war. Were there casualties who weren't of Chantry employ? I'm sure, but so is the way of war. When a military base is bombed, there are innocents there. Soldiers families, non-military employees. "Surgical strikes" in real life almost always lead to casualties and injuries unintended. That's just how it goes.

targeting a military base = targeting a chapel?

If the chapel in question commands one of the largest military forces in the known world, then absolutely.

most people there were probably civlians: sisters, priests etc. 

Civilians who support the Chantry and the imprisonment and treatment of the mages. Anders is a mage. It is not hard to make a connection there. Well I really don't want to defend Anders and his act of 'terrorism', just want to point out the reasoning behind blowing up, of all things, the Chantry. I mean he didn't blow up a hospital or a refugee camp. He blew up what was in his mind a symbol of a 1000 years old injustice.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 10 avril 2011 - 12:49 .

[Darth Krytie]

I know Anders was acting alone in his bomb-making and planning, but we don't know what the mages in the Underground movement were saying to him during his involvement with them. Perhaps he got the impression that many mages were on his side or at least were in fundamental agreement with him. After all, he makes this decision not right after merging with Justice, but seven years later. I wonder what sort of input he received that led him to consider that option.

Modifié par Darth Krytie, 10 avril 2011 - 12:52 .

[RavenB]

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

RavenB wrote...

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

RavenB wrote...

Elthina was an extremely powerful figure in the very organization in charge of locking up mages. Arguably even the strongest in Kirkwall. She had the opportunity many times to put support behind Orsino and the mages, but she would not. I don't see how people fail to see that she was just as involved in the situation as Meredith or Orsino.

Blowing up the Chantry was an act of war. Were there casualties who weren't of Chantry employ? I'm sure, but so is the way of war. When a military base is bombed, there are innocents there. Soldiers families, non-military employees. "Surgical strikes" in real life almost always lead to casualties and injuries unintended. That's just how it goes.

targeting a military base = targeting a chapel?

If the chapel in question commands one of the largest military forces in the known world, then absolutely.

most people there were probably civlians: sisters, priests etc. 

If they're in an official position with the Chantry then, to me, they're not civilians. If there was anyone there to worship, or anyone killed by debris, then they would be innocents. However, the Exalted March the Chantry was bucking to unleash on Kirkwall would almost certainly be sure to produce more civilian casualties than the explosion. It was, for the most part, unavoidable that there would be civilian death as a result of this one way or another.

[AlexXIV]

Darth Krytie wrote...

I know Anders was acting alone in his bomb-making and planning, but we don't know what the mages in the Underground movement were saying to him during his involvement with them. Perhaps he got the impression that many mages were on his side or at least were in fundamental agreement with him. After all, he makes this decision not right after merging with Justice, but seven years later. I wonder what sort of input he received that led him to consider that option.

Far as I know the mage underground was broken by then, and Meredith was going more and more oppresive of mages. So that's what I think. People always expect something spectacular to change a man into a monster. I happen to think it is only a small step.

[Rifneno]

Yellopranda wrote...

The chantry commands the templars, it's true, like the American president commands the U. S. army. You've touched on another important principle of modern warfare. Civilian control of the army. If the president counted as military then the white house would be an acceptable target if the United States were in a state of war.

It is an acceptable target.  You may not like it, I may not like it, but that's only because it's an important target on our side.  Do you think allied forces didn't target Hussein's palaces when they went after Iraq?  Or Taliban leaders when they went after Afghanistan?  Of course they did, you try to cut off the head of the snake not stomp on its tail and proclaim attacking the head is immoral while it bites you.  The Chantry is not civilian.  They are government.  They make laws which they enforce regardless of religious belief and they have a military.  That's government, not civilian.  People don't realize that because most of us are fortunate enough to live in countries where the major religion can't just call you a heretic and kill you without reprocussion.  Thedas isn't like modern culture and the Chantry sure isn't like the nice peaceful church you go to every Sunday.

Speaking of which, I facepalm everytime I see Anders called a "terrorist."  Yeah, I know, by some definitions he is.  Guess what?  So is the Chantry, the templars, and Meredith!  We're specifically told that mages are made tranquil and put on display as a way to cower others into submission.  We see a group of templars attempt to murder someone because she gave one ****ing meal to a mage in the family.  How does that not scream "terrorism" from the rooftops?  But I don't go there, and I haven't seen any other pro-mage debaters go there.  I can't speak for them, but I don't do it because regardless of dictionary definitions, we associate the word terrorist with 9/11.  There is no getting around that, and I refuse to exploit the emotions of real world-changing tragedies to make a point about a video game character.  And if anyone still wants to argue "so what? the word fits!" then answer me this: would you paint a swastika on your house?  No?  Because that symbol dates back at least 6,000 years and basically means nothing more than "good luck."  But our culture associates it with a group of sick genocidal maniacs.  It has been tainted.  It is ruined for us.  As is "terrorism."

But enough about depressing real world events.  As a general rule I agree "the ends justify the means" isn't a good excuse.  But the world isn't black and white.  Sacrifices must occasionally be made.  There's a big difference between regretfully killing some innocent people as reasonably unavoidable collateral damage in an attack on your enemy and gleefully causing wanton destruction of innocent lives.  Elthina says to Sebastian at one point, "Do you think no innocents died in the exalted marches?"  Even she acknowledges that sometimes innocent people have to die in a a just war.  So we're left with two questions, "Is this a just war?" and "Is this collateral damage necessary?"

I'm sure every character in question thought the answers to those questions was a firm yes.  What made the Arishok the worst of the bunch to me was that he never showed he actually regretted the fact innocent people suffered because of him.  He didn't care.  I honestly wonder if qunari are even capable of it.  Like Alistair says regarding Sten, "I'm not sure regret means the same thing to them as it does to us."  Meredith and Anders both showed great regret at the suffering they caused.  Anders says to Isabela in an earlier banter that killing him would be justice if he killed innocents to achieve his goal.  And he didn't falter, even when facing execution by Hawke he doesn't try to defend himself.  I've never heard a lot of Meredith's story firsthand because I never side with the templars, but it added a great deal to her character.  I was completely taken aback when Hawke chews her out that all mages aren't evil, that she's punishing innocent people too, and instead of screaming more rhetoric she hung her head and said with sorrow, "I know.  And it breaks my heart to do so."  She wasn't pure evil.  She was doing evil things, but she truly thought her misguided crimes were beneficial to society as a whole.

[Darth Krytie]

AlexXIV wrote...

Darth Krytie wrote...

I know Anders was acting alone in his bomb-making and planning, but we don't know what the mages in the Underground movement were saying to him during his involvement with them. Perhaps he got the impression that many mages were on his side or at least were in fundamental agreement with him. After all, he makes this decision not right after merging with Justice, but seven years later. I wonder what sort of input he received that led him to consider that option.

Far as I know the mage underground was broken by then, and Meredith was going more and more oppresive of mages. So that's what I think. People always expect something spectacular to change a man into a monster. I happen to think it is only a small step.

I don't expect it actually be anything spectacular. I just was curious about his interactions with other mages in Kirkwall. How they fit into his world purview...how they affected how he saw the cause...Anders' decision wasn't made in a vaccuum.

[TobiTobsen]

Darth Krytie wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Darth Krytie wrote...

I know Anders was acting alone in his bomb-making and planning, but we don't know what the mages in the Underground movement were saying to him during his involvement with them. Perhaps he got the impression that many mages were on his side or at least were in fundamental agreement with him. After all, he makes this decision not right after merging with Justice, but seven years later. I wonder what sort of input he received that led him to consider that option.

Far as I know the mage underground was broken by then, and Meredith was going more and more oppresive of mages. So that's what I think. People always expect something spectacular to change a man into a monster. I happen to think it is only a small step.

I don't expect it actually be anything spectacular. I just was curious about his interactions with other mages in Kirkwall. How they fit into his world purview...how they affected how he saw the cause...Anders' decision wasn't made in a vaccuum.

Maybe you should talk with Vengeance about Ella then.

[AlexXIV]

Darth Krytie wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Darth Krytie wrote...

I know Anders was acting alone in his bomb-making and planning, but we don't know what the mages in the Underground movement were saying to him during his involvement with them. Perhaps he got the impression that many mages were on his side or at least were in fundamental agreement with him. After all, he makes this decision not right after merging with Justice, but seven years later. I wonder what sort of input he received that led him to consider that option.

Far as I know the mage underground was broken by then, and Meredith was going more and more oppresive of mages. So that's what I think. People always expect something spectacular to change a man into a monster. I happen to think it is only a small step.

I don't expect it actually be anything spectacular. I just was curious about his interactions with other mages in Kirkwall. How they fit into his world purview...how they affected how he saw the cause...Anders' decision wasn't made in a vaccuum.

I think what mostly impressed him was justice/vengeance. What Anders did is rather radical and absolute. The way a spirit, or demon would think. I mean even the mention of a 1000 years old injustice. I doubt any mage is old enough to remember that far back. I picture Anders being more 'fanatic' than the other mages of the resistance. We don't really hear anything about them aside from the fact that they existed and broke up eventually, probably due to Meredth's actions.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 10 avril 2011 - 01:04 .

[Darth Krytie]

TobiTobsen wrote...

Darth Krytie wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Darth Krytie wrote...

I know Anders was acting alone in his bomb-making and planning, but we don't know what the mages in the Underground movement were saying to him during his involvement with them. Perhaps he got the impression that many mages were on his side or at least were in fundamental agreement with him. After all, he makes this decision not right after merging with Justice, but seven years later. I wonder what sort of input he received that led him to consider that option.

Far as I know the mage underground was broken by then, and Meredith was going more and more oppresive of mages. So that's what I think. People always expect something spectacular to change a man into a monster. I happen to think it is only a small step.

I don't expect it actually be anything spectacular. I just was curious about his interactions with other mages in Kirkwall. How they fit into his world purview...how they affected how he saw the cause...Anders' decision wasn't made in a vaccuum.

Maybe you should talk with Vengeance about Ella then.

Oooh. Flippancy. How cute.

Modifié par Darth Krytie, 10 avril 2011 - 01:04 .

[JabbaDaHutt30]

AlexXIV wrote...

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

RavenB wrote...

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

RavenB wrote...

Elthina was an extremely powerful figure in the very organization in charge of locking up mages. Arguably even the strongest in Kirkwall. She had the opportunity many times to put support behind Orsino and the mages, but she would not. I don't see how people fail to see that she was just as involved in the situation as Meredith or Orsino.

Blowing up the Chantry was an act of war. Were there casualties who weren't of Chantry employ? I'm sure, but so is the way of war. When a military base is bombed, there are innocents there. Soldiers families, non-military employees. "Surgical strikes" in real life almost always lead to casualties and injuries unintended. That's just how it goes.

targeting a military base = targeting a chapel?

If the chapel in question commands one of the largest military forces in the known world, then absolutely.

most people there were probably civlians: sisters, priests etc. 

Civilians who support the Chantry and the imprisonment and treatment of the mages. Anders is a mage. It is not hard to make a connection there. Well I really don't want to defend Anders and his act of 'terrorism', just want to point out the reasoning behind blowing up, of all things, the Chantry. I mean he didn't blow up a hospital or a refugee camp. He blew up what was in his mind a symbol of a 1000 years old injustice.

There is no clear cut form of support here. Some may have not been supporters, some who may be supporters could also be sympathizers, and agreeing to some form of constraint doesn't necessarily mean they agree to the templars' methods in Kirkwall.

Chantry supporters won't be convinced that mages shouldn't be imprisoned by blowing their religious establishments anyway. If Anders' goal was to change the course of belief of Andraste's followers, then I think his actions will simply result in rallying more followers to support the templars in exchange for the opportunity to eliminate a few.

Modifié par JabbaDaHutt30, 10 avril 2011 - 01:05 .

[Yellopranda]

RavenB wrote...

Oneiropolos wrote...

Playing Devil's Advocate:

Yes. If you were an enemy country, attacking the White House is acceptable. It was, in fact, done in the War of 1812. Burned, actually. However, the nation was in fact aware they were in a war.On both sides. That's the catch.

Anders might have been acting for all mages, but he didn't precisely actually give them a heads up and the 'enemy' was unaware the strike was coming. An action done by ONE MAN is not a formal declaration of war. It was a terrorist attack...and even Anders recognized it as something that was NOT justice. That's why he believed he should die as well for the innocents he just killed.

Warning someone you're about to attack them sounds like the worst battle plan I've ever heard. Especially in the case of Anders and the mages where you're vastly out gunned and surprise is going to be the only element in your favor.

That's what you do in a war. You declare war first and then you attack. First of course, you have to ratify the decision in the legislature and signed by the commander-in-chief.  A democratic decision. If this all seems a bit different than what Anders did that's because it's not war. When one person decides on his own to "bomb" a target, that's a terrorist act. It would be helpful for the discussion if we could keep our definitions straight.

[AlexXIV]

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...
There is no clear cut form of support here. Some may have not been supporters, some who may be supporters could also be sympathizers, and agreeing to some form of constraint doesn't necessarily mean they agree to the templars' methods in Kirkwall.

Chantry supporters won't be convinced that mages shouldn't be imprisoned by blowing their religious establishments anyway. If Anders' goal was to change the course of belief of Andraste's followers, then I think his actions will simply result in rallying more followers to support the templars in exchange for the opportunity to eliminate a few.

No his plan clearly was to start a war. I don't deny that. And he thought the innocents killed were a 'necessary sacrifice'. I don't support it at all, and I would have done everything to prevent it if there was an option. I am not trying to defend him, rather just understand why he did it.

[RavenB]

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

RavenB wrote...

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

RavenB wrote...

Elthina was an extremely powerful figure in the very organization in charge of locking up mages. Arguably even the strongest in Kirkwall. She had the opportunity many times to put support behind Orsino and the mages, but she would not. I don't see how people fail to see that she was just as involved in the situation as Meredith or Orsino.

Blowing up the Chantry was an act of war. Were there casualties who weren't of Chantry employ? I'm sure, but so is the way of war. When a military base is bombed, there are innocents there. Soldiers families, non-military employees. "Surgical strikes" in real life almost always lead to casualties and injuries unintended. That's just how it goes.

targeting a military base = targeting a chapel?

If the chapel in question commands one of the largest military forces in the known world, then absolutely.

most people there were probably civlians: sisters, priests etc. 

Civilians who support the Chantry and the imprisonment and treatment of the mages. Anders is a mage. It is not hard to make a connection there. Well I really don't want to defend Anders and his act of 'terrorism', just want to point out the reasoning behind blowing up, of all things, the Chantry. I mean he didn't blow up a hospital or a refugee camp. He blew up what was in his mind a symbol of a 1000 years old injustice.

There is no clear cut form of support here. Some may have not been supporters, some who may be supporters could also be sympathizers, and agreeing to some form of constraint doesn't necessarily mean they agree to the templars' methods in Kirkwall.

Chantry supporters won't be convinced that mages shouldn't be imprisoned by blowing their religious establishments anyway. If Anders' goal was to change the course of belief of Andraste's followers, then I think his actions will simply result in rallying more followers to support the templars in exchange for the opportunity to eliminate a few.

I think he was more interested in taking the choice out of the hands of the Chantry entirely. And considering the epilogue made it seem as if they were steadily taking on water and losing rats to the sinking ship, I wouldn't count him out on that bet.

[AlexXIV]

Well he was possessed by a spirit of justice. And ideologies hardly know compromises. I guess he thought he 'knew' what justice is, and that made his decision justified. For him. If he had been possessed by a spirit of mercy or compassion he probably wouldn't have done it.

[JabbaDaHutt30]

RavenB wrote...

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

RavenB wrote...

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

RavenB wrote...

Elthina was an extremely powerful figure in the very organization in charge of locking up mages. Arguably even the strongest in Kirkwall. She had the opportunity many times to put support behind Orsino and the mages, but she would not. I don't see how people fail to see that she was just as involved in the situation as Meredith or Orsino.

Blowing up the Chantry was an act of war. Were there casualties who weren't of Chantry employ? I'm sure, but so is the way of war. When a military base is bombed, there are innocents there. Soldiers families, non-military employees. "Surgical strikes" in real life almost always lead to casualties and injuries unintended. That's just how it goes.

targeting a military base = targeting a chapel?

If the chapel in question commands one of the largest military forces in the known world, then absolutely.

most people there were probably civlians: sisters, priests etc. 

If they're in an official position with the Chantry then, to me, they're not civilians. If there was anyone there to worship, or anyone killed by debris, then they would be innocents. However, the Exalted March the Chantry was bucking to unleash on Kirkwall would almost certainly be sure to produce more civilian casualties than the explosion. It was, for the most part, unavoidable that there would be civilian death as a result of this one way or another.

So accordingly, if your political alignment opposes that of a certain group, then getting targeted for an act of violence makes you part of the militant order you support, and your death wouldn't account for a civilian casualty? Interesting...

I haven't finished the game so I haven't heard about that last part I outlined.

Modifié par JabbaDaHutt30, 10 avril 2011 - 01:18 .

[RavenB]

Yellopranda wrote...

RavenB wrote...

Oneiropolos wrote...

Playing Devil's Advocate:

Yes. If you were an enemy country, attacking the White House is acceptable. It was, in fact, done in the War of 1812. Burned, actually. However, the nation was in fact aware they were in a war.On both sides. That's the catch.

Anders might have been acting for all mages, but he didn't precisely actually give them a heads up and the 'enemy' was unaware the strike was coming. An action done by ONE MAN is not a formal declaration of war. It was a terrorist attack...and even Anders recognized it as something that was NOT justice. That's why he believed he should die as well for the innocents he just killed.

Warning someone you're about to attack them sounds like the worst battle plan I've ever heard. Especially in the case of Anders and the mages where you're vastly out gunned and surprise is going to be the only element in your favor.

That's what you do in a war. You declare war first and then you attack. First of course, you have to ratify the decision in the legislature and signed by the commander-in-chief.  A democratic decision. If this all seems a bit different than what Anders did that's because it's not war. When one person decides on his own to "bomb" a target, that's a terrorist act. It would be helpful for the discussion if we could keep our definitions straight.

If Anders were the commander-in-chief of a modern world country, then that would make sense, but you're trying to apply real world politics that DO NOT EXIST IN THEDAS to these actions. 

You're also trying to squeeze revolutionary and civil wars into the category that fits one nation attacking another. What you're doing is taking an example that in no way fits the situation or the world and trying to make it fit. Square peg in a round hole, it's not going to fit.

[wright1978]

I agree that the Grand Cleric is utterly weak and making the problem worse. By not having the backbone to control Meredith or give Meredith her explicit support she succors mage resentment passively in her hands off role. It is a bit like European leaders like Chamberlain with their appeasement campaign to Hitler, just invited him on by their weakness. I don't agree with Anders actions though either. It is a cowards decision to murder innocent civilians going about their daily lives rather than keep fighting for a different tougher solution.

[RavenB]

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

RavenB wrote...

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

RavenB wrote...

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

RavenB wrote...

Elthina was an extremely powerful figure in the very organization in charge of locking up mages. Arguably even the strongest in Kirkwall. She had the opportunity many times to put support behind Orsino and the mages, but she would not. I don't see how people fail to see that she was just as involved in the situation as Meredith or Orsino.

Blowing up the Chantry was an act of war. Were there casualties who weren't of Chantry employ? I'm sure, but so is the way of war. When a military base is bombed, there are innocents there. Soldiers families, non-military employees. "Surgical strikes" in real life almost always lead to casualties and injuries unintended. That's just how it goes.

targeting a military base = targeting a chapel?

If the chapel in question commands one of the largest military forces in the known world, then absolutely.

most people there were probably civlians: sisters, priests etc. 

If they're in an official position with the Chantry then, to me, they're not civilians. If there was anyone there to worship, or anyone killed by debris, then they would be innocents. However, the Exalted March the Chantry was bucking to unleash on Kirkwall would almost certainly be sure to produce more civilian casualties than the explosion. It was, for the most part, unavoidable that there would be civilian death as a result of this one way or another.

So accordingly, if your political alignment opposes that of a certain group, then getting targeted for an act of violence makes you part of the militant order you support, and your death wouldn't account for a civilian casualty? Interesting...

If you have an official position in an organization backed by a major military force, then I would not class you a civilian. An Andrastian devotee is a civilian, a person with an official title in the organization is not. But that seemed to be more to the point you didn't put in itallics. o_O

EDIT-- Saw your edit now. It's in a conversation with Elthina and Sebastian.

Modifié par RavenB, 10 avril 2011 - 01:20 .