297 réponses à ce sujet

[Plaintiff]

Arishok - Whether he's worthy of respect or not is kind of a moot point for me. He is the general of the military arm of a group that makes no secret of the fact that his people have long term plans to violently conquer and forcibly convert everyone in the entire goddamn world. I dunno how size, strength and a deep voice make him worthy of respect, these are general traits of Kossith. I find it funny that he considers me "honorable" when I made it as clear as possible that I despised him and his philosophy. I'll kill him every time and I won't feel even slightly upset about it. After the trouble the Qunari gave me I don't particularly feel like returning their book either. I might consider burning it and sending the ashes back, just to really drive the point home.

Anders - As far as I'm concerned, the Chantry is a throbbing cancer on Thedas and needs to be significantly weakened, if not removed entirely. I hate the Chantry and I like Anders, this is a no-brainer for me. And I wouldn't call it "mass murder" anyway. How many people were ever in there? Less than ten? It was a large building, yeah, but it's height can prbably be purely attributed to the massive ****ing gold-plated statue inside. And if those people follow Andrastism, they probably subjugate mages anyway, so no big loss.

Elthina - Don't like her, never liked her. Glad she's dead. Pathetic, simpering, ignorant, biased **** if you ask me. People can say all they want that she was "working behind the scenes". Too damn bad, I didn't see anything. She should've picked a side, she should've backed Meredith into a corner. She should've taken some goddamn action. I was not the least bit sorry that she was dead, and if Anders had asked me I would've stabbed her in the neck myself, and Meredith too.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 10 avril 2011 - 01:33 .

[Yellopranda]

Rifneno wrote...

But enough about depressing real world events.  As a general rule I agree "the ends justify the means" isn't a good excuse.  But the world isn't black and white.  Sacrifices must occasionally be made.  There's a big difference between regretfully killing some innocent people as reasonably unavoidable collateral damage in an attack on your enemy and gleefully causing wanton destruction of innocent lives.  Elthina says to Sebastian at one point, "Do you think no innocents died in the exalted marches?"  Even she acknowledges that sometimes innocent people have to die in a a just war.  So we're left with two questions, "Is this a just war?" and "Is this collateral damage necessary?"

I'm sure every character in question thought the answers to those questions was a firm yes.  What made the Arishok the worst of the bunch to me was that he never showed he actually regretted the fact innocent people suffered because of him.  He didn't care.  I honestly wonder if qunari are even capable of it.  Like Alistair says regarding Sten, "I'm not sure regret means the same thing to them as it does to us."  Meredith and Anders both showed great regret at the suffering they caused.  Anders says to Isabela in an earlier banter that killing him would be justice if he killed innocents to achieve his goal.  And he didn't falter, even when facing execution by Hawke he doesn't try to defend himself.  I've never heard a lot of Meredith's story firsthand because I never side with the templars, but it added a great deal to her character.  I was completely taken aback when Hawke chews her out that all mages aren't evil, that she's punishing innocent people too, and instead of screaming more rhetoric she hung her head and said with sorrow, "I know.  And it breaks my heart to do so."  She wasn't pure evil.  She was doing evil things, but she truly thought her misguided crimes were beneficial to society as a whole.

One of the most important point in my initial post was that people should be judged by their actions not their words. Meredith, Anders and the Arishok all killed innocent people. I'm sure that the fact that Meredith and Anders only did so regretfully is of great comfort to the victims and their families.

There's little difference to me between them and the Arishok. Anders does a great job of persuading you to be sympathetic, and Meredith is very good at making heartfelt statements. Bioware has done a good job there, intelligent, powerful extremists often are very good at evoking sympathy. seducing entire nations sometimes. They're still murderers and should be viewed as such. Whatever excuses and explanations they offer afterwards does not excuse their acts.

Starting to regret bringing up the white house. It's a little beside the point, and you may be right.

[Rifneno]

Plaintiff wrote...

Arishok - Whether he's worthy of respect or not is kind of a moot point for me. He is the general of the military arm of a group that makes no secret of the fact that his people have long term plans to violently conquer and forcibly convert everyone in the entire goddamn world. I dunno how size, strength and a deep voice make him worthy of respect, these are general traits of Kossith. I find it funny that he considers me "honorable" when I made it as clear as possible that I despised him and his philosophy. I'll kill him every time and I won't feel even slightly upset about it.

Anders - As far as I'm concerned, the Chantry is a throbbing cancer on Thedas and needs to be significantly weakened, if not removed entirely. I hate the Chantry and I like Anders, this is a no-brainer for me. And I wouldn't call it "mass murder" anyway. How many people were ever in there? Less than ten? It was a large building, yeah, but it's height can prbably be purely attributed to the massive ****ing goldf-plated statue inside. And if those people follow Andrastism, they probably subjugate mages anyway, so no big loss.

Elthina - Don't like her, never liked her. Glad she's dead. Pathetic, simpering, ignorant, biased **** if you ask me. People can say all they want that she was "working behind the scenes". Too damn bad, I didn't see anything. She should've picked a side, she should've backed Meredith into a corner. She should've taken some goddamn action. I was not the least bit sorry that she was dead, and if Anders had asked me I would've stabbed her in the neck myself, and Meredith too.

*sniff*  It's.. it's just... so beautiful...

[Shadowrun1177]

Yellopranda wrote...

Bioware does something different with Anders. They make him your companion, and everyone stands by his friends, right? Well, when your friend turns out to be a terrorist maybe it's time to reevaluate your friendship. If in real life a friend of mine would suddenly turn out to be a murderer i'm sure i would sympathize with him, a pure emotional instinct. Agreeing with his actions, however, would be another matter entirely. It wouldn't make you a terrorist, but certainly a terrorist supporter.

Honestly I find it hard to sympathize with someone who's a murderer even if they are friends. I honestly kill Anders everytime cause there is no way I could sympathize. I speak from personal experience cause I had a friend who I had known since elementary school, who was a couple of years younger then me.  We lost contact after I graduated from high school and left for the military, sometime during that time he and another friend of his raped, murdered, burned and buried the body of a girl they went to school with. The girl was thought to be a runaway for the longest time until the other guy's guilt got the better for him and he confessed and led police to her body. This was years later after I returned from the military and when it all came to light I was disgusted I felt no sympathy for him even though I had known him longer then Hawke knows Anders and wished he had gotten the death penalty all he got was life. 

If I felt sympathy for anyone one it was Sabastian, Elthina and the people in the Chantry not Anders. 

[Deztyn]

Morroian wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Or she's taking sensible action behind the scenes working for compromise rather than pointlessly provoking a war by backing Meredith into a corner.

She doesn't seem to be doing anything like that though and her dialogue almost explicitly states that shes not trying to broker a compromise between them.

"And now I must attend to the Gallows. They will see reason, if the Maker wills it."
~Elthina, moments after having Orsino gently returned and telling Meredith to go back to the Gallows like a good girl.

So yeah, Elthina is doing things behind the scenes. I think the bigger problem people have is that she's not doing what they want.

"You disapprove of me. You think I should send the templars against the Qunari, perhaps? Destroy the mages or set them free? There are many strong opinions in this city, child. It is not my place to decide who is right."
~Elthina

[AlexXIV]

Deztyn wrote...

Morroian wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Or she's taking sensible action behind the scenes working for compromise rather than pointlessly provoking a war by backing Meredith into a corner.

She doesn't seem to be doing anything like that though and her dialogue almost explicitly states that shes not trying to broker a compromise between them.

"And now I must attend to the Gallows. They will see reason, if the Maker wills it."
~Elthina, moments after having Orsino gently returned and telling Meredith to go back to the Gallows like a good girl.

So yeah, Elthina is doing things behind the scenes. I think the bigger problem people have is that she's not doing what they want.

"You disapprove of me. You think I should send the templars against the Qunari, perhaps? Destroy the mages or set them free? There are many strong opinions in this city, child. It is not my place to decide who is right."
~Elthina

Doesn't change that she is the Grand Cleric of Kirkwall for 30 years. And what good did she do? The best thing she did was dying in her Chantry.

[Deztyn]

Your assumption.

Your biased assumption. You have no idea what good she has or has not done, but I think you wouldn't accept anything less than "freed all the mages" as good.

Modifié par Deztyn, 10 avril 2011 - 01:43 .

[Yellopranda]

RavenB wrote...

Yellopranda wrote...

RavenB wrote...

Oneiropolos wrote...

Playing Devil's Advocate:

Yes. If you were an enemy country, attacking the White House is acceptable. It was, in fact, done in the War of 1812. Burned, actually. However, the nation was in fact aware they were in a war.On both sides. That's the catch.

Anders might have been acting for all mages, but he didn't precisely actually give them a heads up and the 'enemy' was unaware the strike was coming. An action done by ONE MAN is not a formal declaration of war. It was a terrorist attack...and even Anders recognized it as something that was NOT justice. That's why he believed he should die as well for the innocents he just killed.

Warning someone you're about to attack them sounds like the worst battle plan I've ever heard. Especially in the case of Anders and the mages where you're vastly out gunned and surprise is going to be the only element in your favor.

That's what you do in a war. You declare war first and then you attack. First of course, you have to ratify the decision in the legislature and signed by the commander-in-chief.  A democratic decision. If this all seems a bit different than what Anders did that's because it's not war. When one person decides on his own to "bomb" a target, that's a terrorist act. It would be helpful for the discussion if we could keep our definitions straight.

If Anders were the commander-in-chief of a modern world country, then that would make sense, but you're trying to apply real world politics that DO NOT EXIST IN THEDAS to these actions. 

You're also trying to squeeze revolutionary and civil wars into the category that fits one nation attacking another. What you're doing is taking an example that in no way fits the situation or the world and trying to make it fit. Square peg in a round hole, it's not going to fit.

Most revolutionary and civil wars ARE declared. Sure, there's usually events which spark them, but it's not a war before you have two opposing armies with a specific intent. Anders exploding the chapel could be said to be such an event. How you manage to make one person's act against a religouos order into a war is beyond me. Not like any war i've ever heard of at least.

[DKJaigen]

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

RavenB wrote...

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

RavenB wrote...

Elthina was an extremely powerful figure in the very organization in charge of locking up mages. Arguably even the strongest in Kirkwall. She had the opportunity many times to put support behind Orsino and the mages, but she would not. I don't see how people fail to see that she was just as involved in the situation as Meredith or Orsino.

Blowing up the Chantry was an act of war. Were there casualties who weren't of Chantry employ? I'm sure, but so is the way of war. When a military base is bombed, there are innocents there. Soldiers families, non-military employees. "Surgical strikes" in real life almost always lead to casualties and injuries unintended. That's just how it goes.

targeting a military base = targeting a chapel?

If the chapel in question commands one of the largest military forces in the known world, then absolutely.

most people there were probably civlians: sisters, priests etc. 

Thats irrelevant. In war logistic and communications centers are the first priority targets. most of them are staffed by civilians. 

[AlexXIV]

Deztyn wrote...

Your assumption.

Your biased assumption. You have no idea what good she has or has not done, but I think you wouldn't accept anything less than "freed all the mages" as good.

I would accept anything more than 'words of wisdom' that change nothing for anyone. Even in your examples she did nothing what helped anyone. Neither templars, nor mages. Not even common people. She seems to have her head in the clouds, bathing in the wisdom of the maker instead of caring about the people she is supposed to be responsible for. Aveline did more for the people of Kirkwall and she was just a Ferelden refugee. Give me one example of what she did, that are not just useless words nobody cared for.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 10 avril 2011 - 01:50 .

[Rogue Unit]

Rifneno, I couldn't have said it better myself.

[Yellopranda]

Shadowrun1177 wrote...

Yellopranda wrote...

Bioware does something different with Anders. They make him your companion, and everyone stands by his friends, right? Well, when your friend turns out to be a terrorist maybe it's time to reevaluate your friendship. If in real life a friend of mine would suddenly turn out to be a murderer i'm sure i would sympathize with him, a pure emotional instinct. Agreeing with his actions, however, would be another matter entirely. It wouldn't make you a terrorist, but certainly a terrorist supporter.

Honestly I find it hard to sympathize with someone who's a murderer even if they are friends. I honestly kill Anders everytime cause there is no way I could sympathize. I speak from personal experience cause I had a friend who I had known since elementary school, who was a couple of years younger then me.  We lost contact after I graduated from high school and left for the military, sometime during that time he and another friend of his raped, murdered, burned and buried the body of a girl they went to school with. The girl was thought to be a runaway for the longest time until the other guy's guilt got the better for him and he confessed and led police to her body. This was years later after I returned from the military and when it all came to light I was disgusted I felt no sympathy for him even though I had known him longer then Hawke knows Anders and wished he had gotten the death penalty all he got was life. 

If I felt sympathy for anyone one it was Sabastian, Elthina and the people in the Chantry not Anders. 

I'm sorry to hear about that. You have experience of such things in real life and that's of course another thing entirely, and i would think you really know what murder means.

It's easier for people to sympatize with someone like Anders in a computer game where no actual people are hurt. The death of game characters don't feel anything like the death of a real person. I believe that if people could see the people Anders killed as actual human beings, far less would sympathize with him.

[Deztyn]

AlexXIV wrote...

Deztyn wrote...

Your assumption.

Your biased assumption. You have no idea what good she has or has not done, but I think you wouldn't accept anything less than "freed all the mages" as good.

I would accept anything more than 'words of wisdom' that change nothing for anyone. Even in your examples she did nothing what helped anyone. Neither templars, nor mages. Not even common people. She seems to have her head in the clouds, bathing in the wisdom of the maker instead of caring about the people she is supposed to be responsible for. Aveline did more for the people of Kirkwall and she was just a Ferelden refugee. Give me one example of what she did, that are not just useless words nobody cared for.

I repeat, you have no idea what good she has or has not done. Or whether if helped templars, mages and/or the common people. You're making an assumption because she doesn't do what you want her to. We don't know what she's doing behind the scenes, but we do know she's doing something. Trying to say anything else is just making stuff up.

[RavenB]

Yellopranda wrote...

Most revolutionary and civil wars ARE declared. Sure, there's usually events which spark them, but it's not a war before you have two opposing armies with a specific intent. Anders exploding the chapel could be said to be such an event. How you manage to make one person's act against a religouos order into a war is beyond me. Not like any war i've ever heard of at least.

The Chantry is not just a "religious order". It's a major military power. And Anders' actions are clearly not called for only by himself, but my a decent enough portion of mages to generate widespread attention; the meeting in Awakening, Leliana's commentary. The mages sieze on this as an opportunity to rebel, or so says the epilogue, so it's easy to assume an opening was preferable to staying the course for many mages.

I still think you're trying to apply too much of a "real world" bent to this situation, though. The mages in Thedas don't have the same options through political recourse that exists in the real world. In the real world, if you start lobotomizing everyone in a minority group who tries to better their position, you will get slapped with genocide accusations by the world powers that be. In Thedas, the Chantry has next to no checks and balances to answer to. They have the farrest reaching influence and arguably one of the largest military forces, sprinkled through every nation. The "divine law" is above even individual nation's kings, as we saw the Chantry denied Alistair's request that the circle be given independence for the Ferelden mages. Delaration of intent would be a simple matter of tranquilizing those mages declaring their intent and there's no one to oppose that call. This was their only choice of recourse if they wanted change.

[TobiTobsen]

Darth Krytie wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...

Darth Krytie wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Darth Krytie wrote...

I know Anders was acting alone in his bomb-making and planning, but we don't know what the mages in the Underground movement were saying to him during his involvement with them. Perhaps he got the impression that many mages were on his side or at least were in fundamental agreement with him. After all, he makes this decision not right after merging with Justice, but seven years later. I wonder what sort of input he received that led him to consider that option.

Far as I know the mage underground was broken by then, and Meredith was going more and more oppresive of mages. So that's what I think. People always expect something spectacular to change a man into a monster. I happen to think it is only a small step.

I don't expect it actually be anything spectacular. I just was curious about his interactions with other mages in Kirkwall. How they fit into his world purview...how they affected how he saw the cause...Anders' decision wasn't made in a vaccuum.

Maybe you should talk with Vengeance about Ella then.

Oooh. Flippancy. How cute.

But nonetheless true  even if i made my point in a pretty sarcastic way. Sorry for that. I'm just annoyed about the whole Anders did nothing wrong discussion.
 
Anders/Vengeance's crusade for the "good" of the mages isn't even stopping at killing mages that disagree with him. You're either with him, or against him. That's my answer to you question how his fellow mages affected his cause.

AlexXIV wrote...

Civilians who support the Chantry and the imprisonment and treatment of the mages. Anders is a mage. It is not hard to make a connection there. Well I really don't want to defend Anders and his act of 'terrorism', just want to point out the reasoning behind blowing up, of all things, the Chantry. I mean he didn't blow up a hospital or a refugee camp. He blew up what was in his mind a symbol of a 1000 years old injustice.

If we listen to the chantry sisters in the chantry we actually hear that they take care of refuges and war/blight-affected children and orphans. I'm pretty sure they are housed somewhere in the chantry. It's a big complex after all. Also they take in other people, like escaped slaves. Your mother sends Orana to the chantry if you tell her to speak with her. The chantry is still a organisation that funds charity, even if they are in charge of the templars.

Yellopranda wrote...

RavenB wrote...

Yellopranda wrote...

That's what you do in a war. You declare war first and then you attack. First of course, you have to ratify the decision in the legislature and signed by the commander-in-chief. A democratic decision. If this all seems a bit different than what Anders did that's because it's not war. When one person decides on his own to "bomb" a target, that's a terrorist act. It would be helpful for the discussion if we could keep our definitions straight.

If Anders were the commander-in-chief of a modern world country, then that would make sense, but you're trying to apply real world politics that DO NOT EXIST IN THEDAS to these actions.

You're also trying to squeeze revolutionary and civil wars into the category that fits one nation attacking another. What you're doing is taking an example that in no way fits the situation or the world and trying to make it fit. Square peg in a round hole, it's not going to fit.

Most revolutionary and civil wars ARE declared. Sure, there's usually events which spark them, but it's not a war before you have two opposing armies with a specific intent. Anders exploding the chapel could be said to be such an event. How you manage to make one person's act against a religouos order into a war is beyond me. Not like any war i've ever heard of at least.

I support that. And if we aren't allowed to apply laws of war on Thedas, than I would also say that the violation of human rights done by the chantry isn't an argument for the mages. There aren't any regulated human rights in Thedas either.

Modifié par TobiTobsen, 10 avril 2011 - 02:13 .

[RavenB]

Deztyn wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Deztyn wrote...

Your assumption.

Your biased assumption. You have no idea what good she has or has not done, but I think you wouldn't accept anything less than "freed all the mages" as good.

I would accept anything more than 'words of wisdom' that change nothing for anyone. Even in your examples she did nothing what helped anyone. Neither templars, nor mages. Not even common people. She seems to have her head in the clouds, bathing in the wisdom of the maker instead of caring about the people she is supposed to be responsible for. Aveline did more for the people of Kirkwall and she was just a Ferelden refugee. Give me one example of what she did, that are not just useless words nobody cared for.

I repeat, you have no idea what good she has or has not done. Or whether if helped templars, mages and/or the common people. You're making an assumption because she doesn't do what you want her to. We don't know what she's doing behind the scenes, but we do know she's doing something. Trying to say anything else is just making stuff up.

Considering pretty much everyone you speak to throughout the seven years you're in Kirkwall unanimously agrees the state of the city has gotten progressively worse in the time you've been there, I think it's safe to say whatever she's doing isn't really helping the situation much.

[AlexXIV]

Deztyn wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Deztyn wrote...

Your assumption.

Your biased assumption. You have no idea what good she has or has not done, but I think you wouldn't accept anything less than "freed all the mages" as good.

I would accept anything more than 'words of wisdom' that change nothing for anyone. Even in your examples she did nothing what helped anyone. Neither templars, nor mages. Not even common people. She seems to have her head in the clouds, bathing in the wisdom of the maker instead of caring about the people she is supposed to be responsible for. Aveline did more for the people of Kirkwall and she was just a Ferelden refugee. Give me one example of what she did, that are not just useless words nobody cared for.

I repeat, you have no idea what good she has or has not done. Or whether if helped templars, mages and/or the common people. You're making an assumption because she doesn't do what you want her to. We don't know what she's doing behind the scenes, but we do know she's doing something. Trying to say anything else is just making stuff up.

Well at least I am making assumptions based on things I see. I went to her and told her to do anything, and she just talked about eternity and the maker. You assume things that you don't see. Aka that she is doing something when there is no hint. You're like saying aliens exist, and I assume things because I say I didn't see any. Whatever she did in her 30 years of being Grand Cleric didn't help much, did it? I mean what could have happened that is worse than what actually happened?

Modifié par AlexXIV, 10 avril 2011 - 02:11 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Plaintiff wrote...

Arishok - Whether he's worthy of respect or not is kind of a moot point for me. He is the general of the military arm of a group that makes no secret of the fact that his people have long term plans to violently conquer and forcibly convert everyone in the entire goddamn world. I dunno how size, strength and a deep voice make him worthy of respect, these are general traits of Kossith. I find it funny that he considers me "honorable" when I made it as clear as possible that I despised him and his philosophy. I'll kill him every time and I won't feel even slightly upset about it. After the trouble the Qunari gave me I don't particularly feel like returning their book either. I might consider burning it and sending the ashes back, just to really drive the point home.

He finds you honorable because you make no secret of despising him. Qunari respects steadfastness and people with purpose. If you make no secret of hating him and his people, and show your purpose is to be rid of them, he honors you the same way as you can honor an enemy.

Plaintiff wrote...

Anders - As far as I'm concerned, the Chantry is a throbbing cancer on Thedas and needs to be significantly weakened, if not removed entirely. I hate the Chantry and I like Anders, this is a no-brainer for me. And I wouldn't call it "mass murder" anyway. How many people were ever in there? Less than ten? It was a large building, yeah, but it's height can prbably be purely attributed to the massive ****ing gold-plated statue inside. And if those people follow Andrastism, they probably subjugate mages anyway, so no big loss.

The killing of more than 3 is mass murder, and you forget that it wasn't just the Chantry he destroyed, it was the entire district.... So yeah, that is mass murder. Glad you support it.

Plaintiff wrote...

Elthina - Don't like her, never liked her. Glad she's dead. Pathetic, simpering, ignorant, biased **** if you ask me. People can say all they want that she was "working behind the scenes". Too damn bad, I didn't see anything. She should've picked a side, she should've backed Meredith into a corner. She should've taken some goddamn action. I was not the least bit sorry that she was dead, and if Anders had asked me I would've stabbed her in the neck myself, and Meredith too.

Oh yeah and you aren't biased in the slightest, no not at all, how could you be?....... And for the record Elthina is anything but biased. She is extremely tolerant of all views, her only major faults is her wanting to preserve the status quo instead of trying to find a solution, and her being more concerned about the well-being of the normal people of Kirkwall than the political landscape.
She should have picked a side long age yes. She should have picked Meredith's side long ago, and purged that bunch of Maleficar out before the situation got out of control. But again she was too concerned about the nameless masses, to ever consider that killings are sometimes neccesary. I guess in some ways her view is similar to the OP (oh sweet irony), in that she never thinks killings are justified. I guess you proved her wrong eh?

[Deztyn]

RavenB wrote...

Considering pretty much everyone you speak to throughout the seven years you're in Kirkwall unanimously agrees the state of the city has gotten progressively worse in the time you've been there, I think it's safe to say whatever she's doing isn't really helping the situation much.

Or that it hasn't helped enough. That's not the same as doing nothing. Elthina is not responsible for the Blight overloading the city with refugees, she's not responsible for the Qunari taking up residence. She was trying to keep the peace between templars and mages and may have been successful if Anders didn't blow her up. We'll never know.

We also don't know if things would have been worse sooner without her.

AlexXIV wrote...

Well at least I am making assumptions
based on things I see. I went to her and told her to do anything, and
she just talked about eternity and the maker. You assume things that you
don't see. Aka that she is doing something when there is no hint.
You're like saying aliens exist, and I assume things because I say I
didn't see any. Whatever she did in her 30 years of being Grand Cleric
didn't help much, did it? I mean what could have happened that is worse
than what actually happened?

"And now I must attend to the Gallows. They will see reason, if the Maker wills it."

This is Elthina telling Hawke that she's going to the Gallows to do stuff. That is not a hint. Not an assumption. It's Elthina telling Hawke that she's going to the Gallows to reason with Orsino and Meredith.

[Plaintiff]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
The killing of more than 3 is mass murder, and you forget that it wasn't just the Chantry he destroyed, it was the entire district.... So yeah, that is mass murder. Glad you support it.

He did not destroy the whole district. Know how I know? You're standing in it when the explosion occurs.

Saying I support mass murder is an ad hominem. I support the eradication of the Chantry, and most, if not all the actions that are necessary to reach that goal.

Plaintiff wrote...
Oh yeah and you aren't biased in the slightest, no not at all, how could you be?....... And for the record Elthina is anything but biased. She is extremely tolerant of all views, her only major faults is her wanting to preserve the status quo instead of trying to find a solution, and her being more concerned about the well-being of the normal people of Kirkwall than the political landscape.

The status quo is wrong, and mages are normal people. Where was her concern for their wellbeing? She claims sympathy, but does nothing. She's a hypocrite.

She should have picked a side long age yes. She should have picked Meredith's side long ago, and purged that bunch of Maleficar out before the situation got out of control. But again she was too concerned about the nameless masses, to ever consider that killings are sometimes neccesary. I guess in some ways her view is similar to the OP (oh sweet irony), in that she never thinks killings are justified. I guess you proved her wrong eh?

Look who's biased now. There are next to no maleficar in Kirkwall. The ones you meet in quests are the minority, and the few that are actually from the Kirkwall Circle resort to it out of desperation. The reason you never see any mages behaving themselves is because they're all in the Gallows, behaving themselves, and you're forbidden contact with them. Even a ****ing jail gives visiting rights to friends and relatives. When the templars won't even let me see Bethany if I ask, then the system is irreparrably ****ed up, and needs to go.

Yeah, I proved Elthina wrong, and I'm glad, because sometimes killing is not only justified, but necessary. Her idealism is "cute" I guess and in some ways I wish it could be reality, but it's not how the real world works and it's definitely not how Thedas works, since you're killing people left and right every goddamn day. Her idea of "resolving things peacefully" was to keep the system as it was, which is the same as not resolving things at all.

So yeah, as far as I'm concerned, she needed to go. And I'm not gonna apologize for it. If I felt bad about her death, I'd be obligated to weep over every poor, desperate ****** who exploded on the end of my blade.

[Cutlass Jack]

Plaintiff wrote...

He did not destroy the whole district. Know how I know? You're standing in it when the explosion occurs.

No you weren't. You were standing in Lowtown.

[TobiTobsen]

Plaintiff wrote...

Look who's biased now. There are next to no maleficar in Kirkwall. The ones you meet in quests are the minority, and the few that are actually from the Kirkwall Circle resort to it out of desperation. The reason you never see any mages behaving themselves is because they're all in the Gallows, behaving themselves, and you're forbidden contact with them. Even a ****ing jail gives visiting rights to friends and relatives. When the templars won't even let me see Bethany if I ask, then the system is irreparrably ****ed up, and needs to go.

And the assumption that all the mages in the Gallows are good mages is based on what? As soon as the chantry explodes the streets are flooding with blood mages. These guys have to come from somewhere.

And it seems like visiting in the Gallows is allowed. It's implied that Mother Hawke is there often to speak with Bethany and gamlen goes there to tell her of Mothers death.
Just Hawke isn't allowed. One of the points I don't like about the game.

[Cutlass Jack]

TobiTobsen wrote...

And it seems like visiting in the Gallows is allowed. It's implied that Mother Hawke is there often to speak with Bethany and gamlen goes there to tell her of Mothers death.
Just Hawke isn't allowed. One of the points I don't like about the game.

There's actually conflicting reports on that. Emile's parents werent allowed to visit, for example. Or maybe they just didn't try hard enough.

I think it was more likely that Leandra was allowed special permission because of Hawke, than anything else. Cullen was willing to allow slight bending of the rules as a favor to him.

But there were also conflicting bits about how imprisoned the Mages actually were in the Gallows too. Since you certainly did see them outside of it. Karl visiting the chantry wasn't seen as being unusual for example. Its probably more accurate to say restrictions tightened as the years went on.

[RavenB]

I went and looked up the Chantry explosion on YouTube because I wasn't sure if what was said about the explosion was true.



There's a huge shock wave, but if you pause around 58-59 seconds it looks like everything but the Chantry is still standing. I won't say there was no other damage, but it doesn't appear to me that the whole district was destroyed from the image. Unless one of the writers said so, I think that seems like an exaggeration.

[Wulfram]

Plaintiff wrote...

Elthina - Don't like her, never liked her. Glad she's dead. Pathetic, simpering, ignorant, biased **** if you ask me. People can say all they want that she was "working behind the scenes". Too damn bad, I didn't see anything. She should've picked a side, she should've backed Meredith into a corner. She should've taken some goddamn action. I was not the least bit sorry that she was dead, and if Anders had asked me I would've stabbed her in the neck myself, and Meredith too.

So it's more important to be seen to do something and cause a disaster than to quietly do something which might actually work?

edit: The several tons of flying masonry must have killed a lot of people over a wide area.

Modifié par Wulfram, 10 avril 2011 - 02:57 .