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There is no excuse for murder.


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#76
CloudOfShadows

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Yellopranda wrote...
[...]

I've read several very strange things people have said in defense of these characters, one even going so far as to blame Isabela for being guilty of all the deaths the Arishok caused. A sort of: "She made me do it!" kind of argument that the serial killer in the Magister's Orders quest uses to defend himself. And that's the strange thing, that people don't see that the arguments they use to defend these characters are the same that's been used throughout history to justify the actions of mass murderers, terrorists and dictators. Notions like: the end justfies the means (remember, it's the means which define a terrorist, not the ends), the Greater Good and one of my favourites, you can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs (a saying some attribute to Robespierre who sent thousands of innocent people to the guilloutine during the Reign of Terror).

I invite people who sympathize with these people to examine their actions. Look past their words, their heartfelt emotions, their stern (or soft) demeanor, or goddamn amazing armor in one case and see what cruelty and terror they have wrought upon the world. They are not worthy of respect. They should be despised, and maybe pitied for having become such a sorry excuse for a human being (or abomintion, or qunari or what have you).

Lastly i'd like to add that writing this has made me realize, even more than before, what a great game DA2 is. Because it made me care enough to write this post.



QFT.

I pull my hat before you, OP.

It's interesting what imaginary people are allowed to do.

#77
Plaintiff

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Cutlass Jack wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

He did not destroy the whole district. Know how I know? You're standing in it when the explosion occurs.


No you weren't. You were standing in Lowtown.

Oh fine, whatever. Details, details. It's early evening, nobody's around then except random thugs.

#78
Rifneno

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Yellopranda wrote...

It's easier for people to sympatize with someone like Anders in a computer game where no actual people are hurt. The death of game characters don't feel anything like the death of a real person. I believe that if people could see the people Anders killed as actual human beings, far less would sympathize with him.


It works both ways though.  We also aren't seeing the victims of the Chantry's subjugation as human beings either.  We aren't seeing the many future generations of mages who may have a decent life because of him.

Deztyn wrote...

I repeat, you have no idea what good she has or has not done. Or whether if helped templars, mages and/or the common people. You're making an assumption because she doesn't do what you want her to. We don't know what she's doing behind the scenes, but we do know she's doing something. Trying to say anything else is just making stuff up.


Considering she says on multiple occasions "I'm not doing anything about that, the Maker will do as he wishes."  Putting aside the hilarity that she's relying a deity her religion says has abandoned mankind, the burden of proof is on you to prove she did more than sit on her pedestal and wait for her deity to do her job for her.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The killing of more than 3 is mass murder, and you forget that it wasn't just the Chantry he destroyed, it was the entire district.... So yeah, that is mass murder. Glad you support it.



EmperorSahlertz wrote...
She should have picked Meredith's side long ago, and purged that bunch of Maleficar out before the situation got out of control.


Mmm.  Good old fashioned Chantry hypocrisy, just like mama used to make.

Cutlass Jack wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...

And it seems like visiting in the Gallows is allowed. It's implied that Mother Hawke is there often to speak with Bethany and gamlen goes there to tell her of Mothers death.
Just Hawke isn't allowed. One of the points I don't like about the game.


There's actually conflicting reports on that. Emile's parents werent allowed to visit, for example. Or maybe they just didn't try hard enough.

I think it was more likely that Leandra was allowed special permission because of Hawke, than anything else. Cullen was willing to allow slight bending of the rules as a favor to him.

But there were also conflicting bits about how imprisoned the Mages actually were in the Gallows too. Since you certainly did see them outside of it. Karl visiting the chantry wasn't seen as being unusual for example. Its probably more accurate to say restrictions tightened as the years went on.


Agreed, they're very inconsistant about it now.  I'm almost certain that it was a steadfast rule in DAO, no family once you're in the Circle.

#79
Plaintiff

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Wulfram wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Elthina - Don't like her, never liked her. Glad she's dead. Pathetic, simpering, ignorant, biased **** if you ask me. People can say all they want that she was "working behind the scenes". Too damn bad, I didn't see anything. She should've picked a side, she should've backed Meredith into a corner. She should've taken some goddamn action. I was not the least bit sorry that she was dead, and if Anders had asked me I would've stabbed her in the neck myself, and Meredith too.


So it's more important to be seen to do something and cause a disaster than to quietly do something which might actually work?

edit: The several tons of flying masonry must have killed a lot of people over a wide area.

Try? Try what? Elthina's made it clear that she intends to preserve the status quo, which I don't agree with. If she intended to do anything other than mediate then I might be swayed slightly in her favour. If she even said "I will have Meredith removed and appoint Cullen as Knight-Commander" that would be a drastic improvement. But she doesn't say anything. She says she'll make them "see reason". "Reason" in her case means convincing Orsino, (and by extension, the rest of the mages) to shut up and deal with it, probably because they're "too dangerous" and "not real people". She is a Grand Cleric, which means she believes the inane bullcrap the Chantry spouts about magic and mages. There is no chance of her changing things. Even Sebastian admits this in party banter, though he lauds her apparent laziness or cowardice as some sort of virtue.

So yes, it's more important to be seen to take action.

And I don't really care if the flying chunks of stone hit a few nameless background jerks. saves me having to listen to their prattle if I accidentally walk near them. If I had to hear one more "Fine day Serah", I was liable to flip my **** in the Market Square anyway.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 10 avril 2011 - 03:15 .


#80
Deztyn

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Rifneno wrote...

Deztyn wrote...

I repeat, you have no idea what good she has or has not done. Or whether if helped templars, mages and/or the common people. You're making an assumption because she doesn't do what you want her to. We don't know what she's doing behind the scenes, but we do know she's doing something. Trying to say anything else is just making stuff up.


Considering she says on multiple occasions "I'm not doing anything about that, the Maker will do as he wishes."  Putting aside the hilarity that she's relying a deity her religion says has abandoned mankind, the burden of proof is on you to prove she did more than sit on her pedestal and wait for her deity to do her job for her.


And here it is again:

"And now I must attend to the Gallows. They will see reason, if the Maker wills it."

This is Elthina telling Hawke that she's going to the Gallows to do stuff. That is not a hint. Not an assumption. It's Elthina telling Hawke that she's going to the Gallows to reason with Orsino and Meredith.

"Elthina didn't do what I want her to do!" is not the same as Elthina did nothing.

"Elthina wasn't successful!" is not the same as Elthina did nothing.

Edit: If you want to argue that Elthina was wrong for not freeing the mages or approving the Right of Anullment, go ahead. But stop saying she did nothing. Anders blew her up because he was afraid of what she would do.

Modifié par Deztyn, 10 avril 2011 - 03:34 .


#81
Rifneno

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Deztyn wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Deztyn wrote...

I repeat, you have no idea what good she has or has not done. Or whether if helped templars, mages and/or the common people. You're making an assumption because she doesn't do what you want her to. We don't know what she's doing behind the scenes, but we do know she's doing something. Trying to say anything else is just making stuff up.


Considering she says on multiple occasions "I'm not doing anything about that, the Maker will do as he wishes."  Putting aside the hilarity that she's relying a deity her religion says has abandoned mankind, the burden of proof is on you to prove she did more than sit on her pedestal and wait for her deity to do her job for her.


And here it is again:

"And now I must attend to the Gallows. They will see reason, if the Maker wills it."

This is Elthina telling Hawke that she's going to the Gallows to do stuff. That is not a hint. Not an assumption. It's Elthina telling Hawke that she's going to the Gallows to reason with Orsino and Meredith.

"Elthina didn't do what I want her to do!" is not the same as Elthina did nothing.

"Elthina wasn't successful!" is not the same as Elthina did nothing.


I saw it the first time.  One quote in which she doesn't even specify what she intends to do proves absolutely nothing.  It's quite possible she just wants them to stop arguing in public.  Or even that she just said it to get Hawke to stay out of it by pretending like she's doing her job.  Burden of proof is still on you.

#82
Girl on a Rock

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Oh my! Such a heated debate. But this game really brings it out - I've definitely ranted enough on my own time with friends about some of these issues. But just to throw in my two cents:

The Arishok: I have respect for the Arishok. Not because he's a big guy with a deep voice and an 8-pack, but because he's very principled and disciplined, as the Qunari generally seem to be. While Qunari values are radically different than the ones we've been exposed to among Fereldans, Kirkwallers, the Dalish, and the sprinkling of other cultures we've seen in the DA universe, I think it's a bit too easy to dismiss them, and the Arishok, as mass murderers. Certainly the Arishok was willing to go to war with Kirkwall, but he earnestly believed that he was doing so as a matter of moral and ethical obligation. He believes unwaveringly in order as it's defined by the Qun. Does that mean he was right? Well, not in my opinion, and not in a lot of other people's who hold typically Western values. However, I do have to respect the fact that he is principled. He sticks to his guns, he fulfills his obligations, and he protects those in his care. He's actually a lot like Sten from DA:O, and I think Sten from DA:O would have wholeheartedly supported everything the Arishok did, right down to the single-combat battle to the death. Of course, people who hate the Arishok might not have liked Sten much, either, but honestly, there aren't that many military or political leaders, especially in Thedas, who haven't gotten their hands dirty - in fact, even King Alistair, whom is a pretty decent, ethical guy, could probably bathe in the blood of the people he's personally - nevermind what his army has done - killed many times over. The Arishok is just straightforward about it, and holds a worldview that's really quite alien from the Western philosophies on which the Fereldan and Kirkwaller ethics we've seen so far seem to be based. We also don't really know everything about the Arishok - in one of the codices, it talks about how the army is only one part of the Qunari's larger body, and that going to a Qunari city is necessary to understand the whole. I really, really, really, REALLY hope Bioware lets us do that, because I think the Qunari represent one of the more fascinating cultures I've seen introduced in a fantasy universe, like, ever.

Meredith: Oh, Meredith. I think it's hard for me, at least, to really talk about Meredith and her merits because from almost the beginning of the game, she's starting to be lyrium-addled, and only becomes progressively more so as time goes on. I mean, we don't get many indicators of what she was like prior to the Deep Roads expedition, but it's plausible that she may have had a bit of an addiction to it even before then, given what we've learned about the way the Chantry keeps the templars in line. But that's just speculation. What we do know is that the lyrium idol that Meredith converted into a sword be makin' people cray cray, and cray cray she surely was. I'm not sure what the arguments have been in support of Meredith because I've been fairly insulated from player/fan discussion until very recently, but just to start, Meredith's ideas that every mage has to be locked up in his or her cell and confined strictly to the Gallows is really oppressive. I honestly can see the point about mages posing a danger - they can and sometimes do. (Though I think the way the game handled portraying this was problematic in a number of ways, but that's another post, another topic.) However, they were essentially running an interment camp where everyone who even possessed the potential to do harm had to be locked up. The problem with that is that by that logic, human, elf, dwarf, and Qunari in Thedas should have been locked up, because I tell you what, they've all done pretty ****ty things, and without the excuse of being possessed by a demon. Meredith's extremism was very biased and not at all ethical, and the Chantry's tacit support of it was really unforgivable given the principles of the Chantry as an organization meant to be spiritual and beneficial to sentient life in the world. So I don't really get supporting Meredith, especially since in the end she really revealed herself to be a total crazyhead.

Anders: Anders - oh Anders. You break my HEART. In my first playthrough of the game, I avoided spoilers like the plague, I was so excited to romance Anders because I'd wanted to in Awakenings, but there'd been no opportunity, and despite his diminished playfulness and sense of humor (and his newfound temperamental personality), I really enjoyed his character. Even though she was a rogue, my first character was very pro-mage, given that her dad and her sister/bff were mages, and she was very supportive of Anders.

Until he committed an act of terrorism and mass murder, and not only that, lied to her to make her an accomplice to it.

And thus is the trouble with Anders. Whatever word we want to throw on it (I think 'abomination' is a really loaded term and despite the skew of the game, unfair in some cases), he was forever changed when he merged with Justice, and on the personal friendship/relationship level, there is nothing more important to him than his cause. That betrayal is extraordinarily difficult, in my book, to forgive, despite my character having been completely in love with him - friend romance, not rival romance - and having honestly been aligned with him politically, if not as radically.

As to the ethics of his actions, Anders' actions may have been an act of war, but we never got to see the other mages who were behind it. In fact, we were very much lead to believe that Anders acted pretty much entirely on his own, even if after the fact other mages might have been glad of it. I would say that the Chantry itself is difficult to categorize as a civilian target, but it's also not quite accurate to call it a military one. The Grand Cleric did have the ultimate authority over the templars, but there were also civilians in the Chantry pretty much whenever my party was in there during daylight hours. Beyond that, Anders did nothing but prove that mages were exactly what Meredith said they were. There was a lot of ineffective leadership that lead up to Anders taking the action he did, but that doesn't mean he should have taken it. But the large problem here was Meredith, which should have been taken care of by...

Elthina: Now, I don't think Elthina deserved to die. But for someone who'd been in the Chantry for 30 years and reached the position she had, she must have been mighty politically incompetent to have been unable to rein in Meredith at all. For all her mealy-mouthed protests that it wasn't her place to decide who was right, what she didn't acknowledge was that, at least as far as I could tell, Meredith answered to her, and in fact, she had every ability to prevent things from going as far as they had. Now, I've said before I think the way the game handled the mage problem wasn't as great as it could have been, but the fact remains that more and more mages in Kirkwall were turning to blood magic and demon dealing, as well as just turning away from the Circle in general, because of the continuous and ever-increasing oppression they suffered under Meredith's regime.

(Although personally, I think the Circle of Magi is a pretty unethical solution to begin with, and I don't buy this crap about mages being sooooooooooooooooooooo daaaaaangerous they need to be imprisoned. While against civilians this is true, the fact is, a well-trained templar can take down a mage of a similar level without too much trouble, I'd bet. In my second playthrough, with my first mage, during Night Terrors I mistakenly [and naively] thought I'd beat the system by bringing in Fenris, Varric, and Anders/Justice so that only one of my party members would turn on me and it would make the whole thing go faster. OH HUGE MISTAKE. After lowering the level to Casual, Fenris still handed all our asses to us FOUR TIMES IN A ROW, and generally in the span of a couple of minutes, even with my Mabari summoned. Though we could chalk that up to battle incompetence, which it might have been - I'm no expert, but DAMN, STILL. Two mages and an archer < one well-trained warrior [we killed the Pride demon in like two seconds, it was just Fenris that spanked us all].)

Anyway, Elthina was incompetent at best, probably almost criminally negligent of the well-being of the mages who were supposed to be in her charge, but honestly, even so, I don't think she was malicious, and I don't think she deserved to die. She seemed like a nice old lady. She shouldn't have risen as high as she did, though. An effective leader would never have allowed the Meredith situation to escalate to the point that it did. I'm surprised Divine Justinia didn't have her ass forcibly removed after Leliana reported back.

#83
OrlesianWardenCommander

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I love the arishock, he was the best charater in the game when it came to villains, everything he talked about made perfect sense too me how he commented humans live in a disorganized society with no complex of order, no principle. And it's true most of the entire human civilization exist with no purpose but too pray on the weak,many humans, dwarves, elves, become criminals or mercenaries with no sence of honor or dignity, as other people bow down too petty religions that give them hope that they themselves won't have too work too improve there lives but some spritial being do it for you, I dare say the arishok is a goddamn visionary and speaks the truth.

#84
nightscrawl

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Yellopranda wrote...

Lastly i'd like to add that writing this has made me realize, even more than before, what a great game DA2 is. Because it made me care enough to write this post.


I agree with you 100% there. Now onto your specific points...

I can't help, but think that these people are seduced, not but the value or logic of these characters' philosophies, but by their force of personality. Both Meredith and the Arishok are very impressive. Meredith talks eloquently with total conviction and absolute certainty, a proven way of influencing other people. Sadly, in the real world, how much conviction you have and how certain you are makes you no more or less right than anyone else.

The Arishok is very large and strong, talks with a deep voice and in a distinct, forceful manner. Surely this man must be worthy of respect! Alas, again, looking and sounding impressive doesn't mean that you are. As they say, judge a man by his deeds. I'm sure many militant mass-murderers throughout history were also very impressive and charismatic.


First of all, I can't stand Meredith. While her initial appearance was fun (arriving to back you up when you're heading to the Qunari), and she has one redeeming line where she says that she knows that all mages aren't responsible, pretty much everything else that comes out of her mouth is paranoid delusion. In fact, she is the direct anti-thesis to Anders. While Anders seems to believe that "all mages should be free," Meredith wants to lock all of them up "just in case." Neither extreme is acceptable, nor is it reasonable, or feasible.

I actually believe that mages should, to a certain degree, be allowed to police themselves. If there are even a few elder mages like Iriving from Ferelden's circle, I think it can be done. But in order to do it, they must work with the templars, as the templars are needed to control rogue mages with the talents they train in. Citizens work with police to report crimes and such, I see no reason mages and templars can't do the same. The main problem is that templars are connected to the Chantry. If that connection were removed and templars were more of a law enforcement entity, it would be more reasonable.

As far as the Arishok goes, I find him and the Qunari in general to be an interesting race of people. In the same way that I find Klingons and Samurai to be interesting. These are groups who have a specific way of life based on a thought process and a way of being that dictates all of their actions. You call the Arishok a mass murderer, but he didn't think of it that way. He thought of it as putting down a group of rabid dogs: they fight each other and spread their rabies until they all eventually die of the sickness. In his mind, he was actually doing a good thing. You might argue that this is the same excuse ("doing a good thing") that was given for the Crusades, and you might not be far off, however when it comes to churches in our human society there are many more factors involved (not appropriate for these forums) that don't come into play for the Qunari. They live by the Qun and that is all.

The main mistake in comparing the Qunari with anything you know is making the comparison in the first place. It is a completely structured and ordered society that can only exist in a fictional world. If it really existed, I have no doubt that people from all over would flock to the Qun for structure, just as they do in DA2.


Bioware does something different with Anders. They make him your companion, and everyone stands by his friends, right?


I find the Anders dilemma to be complicated, and I've chosen various choices across my play throughs. My initial gut reaction the first time I played was to be pissed. Not only had Anders lied to me about what he wanted the ingredients for, he used me to distract the Grand Cleric to he could set it up. I was furious. However, that first time he was also my character's boyfriend, so I had to let him live. The next few times however, I did kill him. My reasoning basically goes along with what Meredith says in the following scenes: the people of Kirkwall would demand blood, and I satisfied that demand by killing Anders. Unfortunately, there is no option to say so during the confrontation (even if it wouldn't have mattered to her.)

As far as game play goes, unfortunately Anders is the best healer in the game. If you're not playing a mage yourself, you're severely lacking in options. The group heal and resurrection are powerful and important spells that Bethany lacks. I've only run through the game on normal, but I can't imagine playing on hard+ without Anders healing (yes I know about you über nightmare solo people).


Elthina; what can possibly be wrong with her?


I actually like Elthina, have talked with her on multiple occasions to see the different dialogue options, and feel bad for her. Specifically regarding templars and mages, she seems to really feel that she is caught between a rock and a hard place. She also feels that it is not her place to intervene. Can you imagine if she did? She could potentially be responsible for the deaths of people, no matter who she sided with. Her character is almost like an idealized version of how we might wish our own religious leaders to be: not saying anything specific is "right" or "wrong," but using their own wisdom to help us make that decision for ourselves.


A couple of final points to consider: our characters are living in a different time. You might compare it to our own 11th century. The law and justice was what the people living in isolated communities made for themselves for the most part. Life was hard, the people were tough, and they did what they had to do to protect their families and communities.

You have to remember that this is a game world. I take justice into my own hands when I kill the Magistrate's son for killing elven children, but I can't and wouldn't do that in real life. So when people are advocating for these characters and their actions, it doesn't necessarily mean that they would praise those same actions were they to happen in the real world.

#85
Wulfram

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If you want to criticise Elthina for not supporting the mages, that would be fair enough - she is not a supporter of mage freedom, even if she also does not agree with Meredith's extremist position.

It's criticising her for being inactive which I do not accept, since it seems to be based on an assumption that the epilogue clearly contradicts - namely that the Templars will accept orders from the Chantry that they consider to interfere with dealling effectively with the mages.

The Arishok is a treacherous fanatic, just like Petrice.  Anders is an Abomination. As for Meredith, it's difficult to say where her personal crazy ended and the added crazy from the idol started.

Modifié par Wulfram, 10 avril 2011 - 03:55 .


#86
Girl on a Rock

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Nightscrawl: THIS! The whole thing! :D

#87
Deztyn

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Rifneno wrote...

Deztyn wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Deztyn wrote...

I repeat, you have no idea what good she has or has not done. Or whether if helped templars, mages and/or the common people. You're making an assumption because she doesn't do what you want her to. We don't know what she's doing behind the scenes, but we do know she's doing something. Trying to say anything else is just making stuff up.


Considering she says on multiple occasions "I'm not doing anything about that, the Maker will do as he wishes."  Putting aside the hilarity that she's relying a deity her religion says has abandoned mankind, the burden of proof is on you to prove she did more than sit on her pedestal and wait for her deity to do her job for her.


And here it is again:

"And now I must attend to the Gallows. They will see reason, if the Maker wills it."

This is Elthina telling Hawke that she's going to the Gallows to do stuff. That is not a hint. Not an assumption. It's Elthina telling Hawke that she's going to the Gallows to reason with Orsino and Meredith.

"Elthina didn't do what I want her to do!" is not the same as Elthina did nothing.

"Elthina wasn't successful!" is not the same as Elthina did nothing.


I saw it the first time.  One quote in which she doesn't even specify what she intends to do proves absolutely nothing.  It's quite possible she just wants them to stop arguing in public.  Or even that she just said it to get Hawke to stay out of it by pretending like she's doing her job.  Burden of proof is still on you.


No.

She intends to go the gallows. She implies she wants to make them see reason. I don't have to prove anything else. Because I'm not arguing that she did anything else. Only that she is doing something and to argue otherwise would be wrong. Feel free to argue that she didn't do what you wanted. But that's a different argument.

#88
Girl on a Rock

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Wulfram wrote...

If you want to criticise Elthina for not supporting the mages, that would be fair enough - she is not a supporter of mage freedom, even if she also does not agree with Meredith's extremist position.

It's criticising her for being inactive which I do not accept, since it seems to be based on an assumption that the epilogue clearly contradicts - namely that the Templars will accept orders from the Chantry that they consider to interfere with dealling effectively with the mages.


But Elthina was shown to be an authority over Meredith on at least two occasions that I can recall off the top of my head, one when she sends Meredith to her room like a child, and the second when Orsino threatens to take his dispute with Meredith to Elthina and Meredith seems very opposed to that plan, ostensibly because she doesn't want Elthina's disapproval.

Either way, Elthina clearly has some pull with the Divine - enough, at least, to write to her about Meredith's insanity - and she didn't. The Divine clearly has some level of military might/authority, since she commands an army. So I don't buy that Elthina couldn't have done more to protect the mages. I'm not saying she should have freed them because that wouldn't have made any sense given her beliefs/position, but she could have done a lot more to prevent their interment/being abused.

#89
DPSSOC

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Plaintiff wrote...
Anders - As far as I'm concerned, the Chantry is a throbbing cancer on Thedas and needs to be significantly weakened, if not removed entirely. I hate the Chantry and I like Anders, this is a no-brainer for me. And I wouldn't call it "mass murder" anyway. How many people were ever in there? Less than ten? It was a large building, yeah, but it's height can prbably be purely attributed to the massive ****ing gold-plated statue inside.

 
For the most part I'd have to agree with this.  I'm no fan of the Chantry and it's treatment of mages, but Anders crosses a line.  Anders is, in many ways, similar to Magneto.  I understand his position, I sympathize with his plight, but he goes too far.  Like Magneto Anders believes, rightly so, that the Chantry will never change it's attitude towards Mages, never give them the freedom and dignity of other men so they must rise up and take it.  In purusing this goal however he needs to drum up support, rally the troops so to speak, but that's damn hard to do when fighting the status-quo.

So he encourages mages like Karl to try and escape, he proposes killing the one Templar who shows any kindness toward mages in order to save a group that represent the worst of them, in short he actively antagonizes the Chantry and the Templars then points at their reaction and says, "You see!  They seek to destroy us, war is the only option!"

I'm pro-mage, Fenris is right that not every mage is worth saving but some of them are.  I cannot support Anders though; he lies to his friends to make them accomplice to his actions, he risks harming innocent people for the sake of getting his war, and he does so without hesitation.  He's a monster and the moment I realized what he'd done, what he'd made me complicit in, he was a dead man.

Plaintiff wrote...
And if those people follow Andrastism, they probably subjugate mages anyway, so no big loss.


No.  The priests subjugate mages, the sisters and brothers subjugate mages, the Templars definitely subjugate mages.  The common people of faith do not.  What you're doing is saying that all members of a group are guilty of all crimes comitted in the name of that group (regardless of actual participation).  That's no different than the Templars, "Some mages are evil and dangerous so all must be chained."

#90
Wulfram

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Girl on a Rock wrote...

But Elthina was shown to be an authority over Meredith on at least two occasions that I can recall off the top of my head, one when she sends Meredith to her room like a child, and the second when Orsino threatens to take his dispute with Meredith to Elthina and Meredith seems very opposed to that plan, ostensibly because she doesn't want Elthina's disapproval.

Either way, Elthina clearly has some pull with the Divine - enough, at least, to write to her about Meredith's insanity - and she didn't. The Divine clearly has some level of military might/authority, since she commands an army. So I don't buy that Elthina couldn't have done more to protect the mages. I'm not saying she should have freed them because that wouldn't have made any sense given her beliefs/position, but she could have done a lot more to prevent their interment/being abused.


Only 3 years after Elthina's death, the Templars have defied the Divine and left the Chantry.  Elthina has a limited amount of authority over Meredith, but if Meredith is issued an order she believes compromises her duty to control the mages, she would not obey it - and open disobedience by the Knight Commander of the Grand Cleric's orders would almost certainly spark off a rebellion on the part of the mages.

#91
RavenB

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Wulfram wrote...

Girl on a Rock wrote...

But Elthina was shown to be an authority over Meredith on at least two occasions that I can recall off the top of my head, one when she sends Meredith to her room like a child, and the second when Orsino threatens to take his dispute with Meredith to Elthina and Meredith seems very opposed to that plan, ostensibly because she doesn't want Elthina's disapproval.

Either way, Elthina clearly has some pull with the Divine - enough, at least, to write to her about Meredith's insanity - and she didn't. The Divine clearly has some level of military might/authority, since she commands an army. So I don't buy that Elthina couldn't have done more to protect the mages. I'm not saying she should have freed them because that wouldn't have made any sense given her beliefs/position, but she could have done a lot more to prevent their interment/being abused.


Only 3 years after Elthina's death, the Templars have defied the Divine and left the Chantry.  Elthina has a limited amount of authority over Meredith, but if Meredith is issued an order she believes compromises her duty to control the mages, she would not obey it - and open disobedience by the Knight Commander of the Grand Cleric's orders would almost certainly spark off a rebellion on the part of the mages.


Except the templars were barely following Meredith by Act III. Not only were large groups chosing to support blood mages over her, even Cullen, who was too extremist for Ferelden to keep on, was admitting he could understand why people thought she was crazy. They turn on her in the end even without the Grand Cleric's order. I don't believe anyone would have supported Meredith. Everyone BUT Elthina seemed to be openly calling for her to step down, the common people and the nobles weren't on her side either. Who else did support keeping Meredith in power? It honestly seemed like Elthina was the only thing keeping the whole city from turning on her, to me.

#92
Wulfram

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RavenB wrote...

Except the templars were barely following Meredith by Act III. Not only were large groups chosing to support blood mages over her, even Cullen, who was too extremist for Ferelden to keep on, was admitting he could understand why people thought she was crazy. They turn on her in the end even without the Grand Cleric's order. I don't believe anyone would have supported Meredith. Everyone BUT Elthina seemed to be openly calling for her to step down, the common people and the nobles weren't on her side either. Who else did support keeping Meredith in power? It honestly seemed like Elthina was the only thing keeping the whole city from turning on her, to me.


The vast majority of the order tamely follows her to wipe out the circle.  They're hardly going to turn on her because she's been a bit mean to a few suspected blood mages..

Modifié par Wulfram, 10 avril 2011 - 04:31 .


#93
Girl on a Rock

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Wulfram wrote...

RavenB wrote...

Except the templars were barely following Meredith by Act III. Not only were large groups chosing to support blood mages over her, even Cullen, who was too extremist for Ferelden to keep on, was admitting he could understand why people thought she was crazy. They turn on her in the end even without the Grand Cleric's order. I don't believe anyone would have supported Meredith. Everyone BUT Elthina seemed to be openly calling for her to step down, the common people and the nobles weren't on her side either. Who else did support keeping Meredith in power? It honestly seemed like Elthina was the only thing keeping the whole city from turning on her, to me.


The vast majority of the order tamely follows her to wipe out the circle.  They're hardly going to turn on her because she's been a bit mean to a few suspected blood mages..


We don't really get a good idea of what the "vast majority" even is, and at some point, there is mention of templar recruitment being down, ostensibly because of Meredith's cray cray ways. And again, in the end, they all turn against her anyway.

#94
Rifneno

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Girl on a Rock wrote...

Until he committed an act of terrorism and mass murder, and not only that, lied to her to make her an accomplice to it.


Actually he went to great measures to avoid making her an accomplice.  In order to be an accomplice, you *must* have knowledge of the crime, not simply being tricked.  He even says as much if you ask him why he couldn't trust you.  He thinks the possibility you'd help him and get blood on your own hands to be worse than if you tried to stop him.

As to the ethics of his actions, Anders' actions may have been an act of war, but we never got to see the other mages who were behind it. In fact, we were very much lead to believe that Anders acted pretty much entirely on his own, even if after the fact other mages might have been glad of it.


It's true that a lot of mages oppose a rebellion, but this is an issue that should be brought up more.  Why do they oppose it?  With some I'm sure it's cowardice, but with others it's either Stockholm Syndrome or flat out brainwashing.  There's one dialogue where you can ask him why he's so adamant about the cause.  He doesn't mention the murders or the rapes or even the tranquility.  He says that the Chantry teaches them that magic is a sin, a curse from the Maker of his hatred.  He goes onto say that for all the talk of demons, the most common death he saw in the Circle was suicide.  I know the Anders haters are going to claim he's lying (while still touting Elthina) but go back to DAO and start a mage.  Go into the chapel in the Tower.  There's a girl ont he right of the room praying, and if you talk with her she'll tell you she's hoping the Maker will take her curse away.  When asked what curse, she replies, "Magic, of course" in a tone that indicates she's utterly befuddled you wouldn't know.

So yeah, I believe he's telling the truth even if slightly exaggerating.  The Chantry is pounding it into the minds of mages, even the children, that God hates them and their power is a sin.  No wonder so many of them buy into the Chantry's lies, it's all they've been hearing most of their lives!  They're using several emotional abuse as a control system, and as far as I'm concerned the Chantry needs to burn whether their victims have been successfully brainwashed or not.

Beyond that, Anders did nothing but prove that mages were exactly what Meredith said they were. There was a lot of ineffective leadership that lead up to Anders taking the action he did, but that doesn't mean he should have taken it. But the large problem here was Meredith, which should have been taken care of by.


He didn't prove anything about anyone but himself (and Justice?).  Condemning a many because of the actions of one is exactly why Meredith is off her rocker.

Anyway, Elthina was incompetent at best, probably almost criminally negligent of the well-being of the mages who were supposed to be in her charge, but honestly, even so, I don't think she was malicious, and I don't think she deserved to die. She seemed like a nice old lady. She shouldn't have risen as high as she did, though. An effective leader would never have allowed the Meredith situation to escalate to the point that it did. I'm surprised Divine Justinia didn't have her ass forcibly removed after Leliana reported back.


If a parent sits back and lets one of their children beat another to death, would society still think of them as "a nice old lady" afterwards?

#95
IanPolaris

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Yellopranda wrote...
Let me get this straight. To you, bombing the White House would be morally acceptable?


As an open act of war?  Yes.  The Whitehouse is a valid military targer per the Geneva conventions.

-Polaris

#96
Plaintiff

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DPSSOC wrote...
 
For the most part I'd have to agree with this.  I'm no fan of the Chantry and it's treatment of mages, but Anders crosses a line.  Anders is, in many ways, similar to Magneto.  I understand his position, I sympathize with his plight, but he goes too far.  Like Magneto Anders believes, rightly so, that the Chantry will never change it's attitude towards Mages, never give them the freedom and dignity of other men so they must rise up and take it.  In purusing this goal however he needs to drum up support, rally the troops so to speak, but that's damn hard to do when fighting the status-quo.

So he encourages mages like Karl to try and escape, he proposes killing the one Templar who shows any kindness toward mages in order to save a group that represent the worst of them, in short he actively antagonizes the Chantry and the Templars then points at their reaction and says, "You see!  They seek to destroy us, war is the only option!"

I'm pro-mage, Fenris is right that not every mage is worth saving but some of them are.  I cannot support Anders though; he lies to his friends to make them accomplice to his actions, he risks harming innocent people for the sake of getting his war, and he does so without hesitation.  He's a monster and the moment I realized what he'd done, what he'd made me complicit in, he was a dead man.

Yeah... Magneto believes mutants are superior to men and should be in charge. Anders just wants the basic freedoms that a normal man has. So not really that similar, actually.

The Chantry should be antagonized. Karl should try to escape, any mage who is dissatisfied in the Circle should. Thrask? Well... you'd think Anders would want sympathetic templars to help him work the system, but he's fine with lying to them as an alternative, which is what I do, so I'm not that fussed. And at that point in the game, the only apparently evil mages have been killed. Killing Grace would be just as unfair, as much as the ungrateful little **** infuriates me in subsequent playthroughs.

And maybe the Hawke I roleplay is a selfish, callous, awful man, but yeah, I value my friend (and as it happens, lover) over one old woman I wasn't fond of and several I didn't even know. I was genuinely more concerned with protecting Anders than with the greater ramifications of his actions. It was somewhat jarring to have Anders say "You would've felt honor-bound to stop me" when in fact, I felt no such compulsion, at all.

The way mages are treated is something I find genuinely infuriating, and as Warden, I'd told Anders in Awakening that mages need to take more drastic action, and he disagreed with me then. I almost wish I could go back and say "Ha! Told you so!"


No.  The priests subjugate mages, the sisters and brothers subjugate mages, the Templars definitely subjugate mages.  The common people of faith do not.  What you're doing is saying that all members of a group are guilty of all crimes comitted in the name of that group (regardless of actual participation).  That's no different than the Templars, "Some mages are evil and dangerous so all must be chained."

Oh fine. Let me rephrase: they support the subjugation of mages, and to me that's just as bad. They blindly follow Chantry law and never stop to consider that they're endorsing the imprisonment and all-around dehumanization of their fellow man. The game tries really hard at the end to make mages seem like ****s, but it rang hollow for me, especially coming out of the mouth of Samson.

"Blah blah, mages turn to blood magic all the time, blah blah."

"Oh, hey there, **** who sells kids into slavery, I see you're involved in the kidnap of my sister. Small world, right?"

Or at least that's what I would've liked to say. In fact, I would've liked to kill the ****er and stomp on his corpse. I was in a hurry because that was the one and only instance in the game where mages had genuinely pissed me off. But I digress. My point is that as far as I'm concerned, the Chantry is an oppressive, dictatorial power, and their treatment of mages is a violation of everything I believe about basic human rights. Anyone who subscribes to the beliefs of the Chantry is, in my opinion, not worth the oxygen that goes to waste fuelling their bigoted brains.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 10 avril 2011 - 04:39 .


#97
RavenB

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Wulfram wrote...

RavenB wrote...

Except the templars were barely following Meredith by Act III. Not only were large groups chosing to support blood mages over her, even Cullen, who was too extremist for Ferelden to keep on, was admitting he could understand why people thought she was crazy. They turn on her in the end even without the Grand Cleric's order. I don't believe anyone would have supported Meredith. Everyone BUT Elthina seemed to be openly calling for her to step down, the common people and the nobles weren't on her side either. Who else did support keeping Meredith in power? It honestly seemed like Elthina was the only thing keeping the whole city from turning on her, to me.


The vast majority of the order tamely follows her to wipe out the circle.  They're hardly going to turn on her because she's been a bit mean to a few suspected blood mages..


They follow her upon seeing the Chantry explode. That doesn't suggest to me that they'd take her command over Elthina's if she actually gave it.

#98
Wulfram

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RavenB wrote...

They follow her upon seeing the Chantry explode. That doesn't suggest to me that they'd take her command over Elthina's if she actually gave it.


So why did they suddenly become disloyal to the Chantry in the 3 years after Elthina's death, then?

#99
OldMan91

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The problem I think isn't with the Chantry itself. The existence of religious organizations isn't wrong or immoral. The real issue is when a religious organization is able to enact and enforce laws, despite the government. There is no real separation of church and state in Thedas, and this is a problem.

One of the criticisms by Anders to the Templars and the Chantry for example is that mages are treated as non-people or "cursed" with magic. This attitude would disappear if a law enforcement such as the Templars were secular to begin with. Allow each state to implement its' own laws regarding the treatment of magic and mages. Countries in Thedas should not be beholden to the Orlesian Chantry. The Chantry should not possess the full monopoly of lyrium or even a military branch within their organization, which could potentially be used to overthrow governments not in line with the Chantry beliefs. Indeed, this is what happens in Kirkwall after the Viscount is killed. The Templars take over, with Meredith as their leader. Effectively she has become a dictator and uses her templars to pursue extreme anti-mage measures, including punishing "collaborators" (e.g. people who harbor apostates or provide them with a meal).

Modifié par OldMan91, 10 avril 2011 - 04:55 .


#100
Rifneno

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Wulfram wrote...

RavenB wrote...

They follow her upon seeing the Chantry explode. That doesn't suggest to me that they'd take her command over Elthina's if she actually gave it.


So why did they suddenly become disloyal to the Chantry in the 3 years after Elthina's death, then?


So Elthina is a metagamer, or are we now taking the stance that someone in charge shouldn't do anything about a subordinate committing atrocities because there might be a mutiny?