297 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

Deztyn wrote...

"You disapprove of me. You think I should send the templars against the Qunari, perhaps? Destroy the mages or set them free? There are many strong opinions in this city, child. It is not my place to decide who is right."
~Elthina

The problem with that is as Grand Cleric and thus supreme religious authority in Kirkwall and the only one that can give a direct Order to the Templars, it is her place.  Elthina and Elthina alone has the moral obligatation to review Meridith's performance and see that chantry law is respected.  She alone has the responsibility to see that the proper procedures are in fact followed.

Elthina deserved to die because it was too much effort for her to do her damned job and that more than anything else caused the war.  Ander's act of Terrorism was simply the spark.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

[dp]

Modifié par IanPolaris, 10 avril 2011 - 04:53 .

[Rifneno]

OldMan91 wrote...

The problem I think isn't with the Chantry itself. The existence of religious organizations isn't wrong or immoral. The real issue is when a religious organization is able to enact and enforce laws, despite the government. There is no real separation of church and state in Thedas, and this is a problem.

One of the criticisms by Anders to the Templars and the Chantry for example is that mages are treated as non-people or "cursed" with magic. This attitude would disappear if a law enforcement such as the Templars were secular to being with. Allow each state to implement its' own laws regarding the treatment of magic and mages. Countries in Thedas should not be beholden to the Orlesian Chantry. The Chantry should not possess the full monopoly of lyrium or even a military branch within their organization, which could potentially be used to overthrow governments not in line with the Chantry beliefs. Indeed, this is what happens in Kirkwall after the Viscount is killed. The Templars take over, with Meredith as their leader. Effectively she has become a dictator and uses her templars to pursue extreme anti-mage measures, including punishing "collaborators" (e.g. people who harbor apostates or provide them with a meal).

This.  Giving that kind of power to a religious organization never ends well.

[Girl on a Rock]

Rifneno wrote...

Girl on a Rock wrote...

Until he committed an act of terrorism and mass murder, and not only that, lied to her to make her an accomplice to it.

Actually he went to great measures to avoid making her an accomplice.  In order to be an accomplice, you *must* have knowledge of the crime, not simply being tricked.  He even says as much if you ask him why he couldn't trust you.  He thinks the possibility you'd help him and get blood on your own hands to be worse than if you tried to stop him.

Ah, but he took that choice out of her hands. As it happens, my character wouldn't have helped him or supported him in that act, but he also admits he doesn't want that either. It was a ****ty thing to do. I'm far from an Anders hater, and even after all this, I still like him (in fact, I'm kind of dreading killing his ass in this playthrough, but I'm trolling for some Sebastian Rivalmance... >.> ). But in the end, it's a betrayal, or at least removing free choice from the hands of someone he claims to love pretty deeply. That's just not cool in my book.

Rifneno wrote:

As to the ethics of his actions, Anders' actions may have been an act of war, but we never got to see the other mages who were behind it. In fact, we were very much lead to believe that Anders acted pretty much entirely on his own, even if after the fact other mages might have been glad of it.

It's true that a lot of mages oppose a rebellion, but this is an issue that should be brought up more.  Why do they oppose it?  With some I'm sure it's cowardice, but with others it's either Stockholm Syndrome or flat out brainwashing.  There's one dialogue where you can ask him why he's so adamant about the cause.  He doesn't mention the murders or the rapes or even the tranquility.  He says that the Chantry teaches them that magic is a sin, a curse from the Maker of his hatred.  He goes onto say that for all the talk of demons, the most common death he saw in the Circle was suicide.  I know the Anders haters are going to claim he's lying (while still touting Elthina) but go back to DAO and start a mage.  Go into the chapel in the Tower.  There's a girl ont he right of the room praying, and if you talk with her she'll tell you she's hoping the Maker will take her curse away.  When asked what curse, she replies, "Magic, of course" in a tone that indicates she's utterly befuddled you wouldn't know.

So yeah, I believe he's telling the truth even if slightly exaggerating.  The Chantry is pounding it into the minds of mages, even the children, that God hates them and their power is a sin.  No wonder so many of them buy into the Chantry's lies, it's all they've been hearing most of their lives!  They're using several emotional abuse as a control system, and as far as I'm concerned the Chantry needs to burn whether their victims have been successfully brainwashed or not.

Oh, I know that Anders isn't lying. I'm a mage supporter from way back - hell, in Origins I was like "Why the hale the mages gotta live in this tower, and/or why can't I play an apostate? And why are they called apostates, a word that defines them only in the context of their antagonistic relationship to a hegemony that's oppressive and destructive?" 

OK, a little nerdy, I know, but I did think that. LOL.  

Anyway, I believe he's telling the truth, I believe the Chantry's treatment of mages is really and truly unethical and wrong. It's Anders' methods that I have beef with; I'm not into killing civilians, and I'm not into lying to lovers. Right up until the point that Chantry blew, my character had been 100% behind Anders (you know, except for when he was going to kill that little mageling girl). When you're friends with someone, working closely with them, for seven years, it's a huge breach of trust not only to pull some shenanigans like that, but to involve them in it, even if you kept them ignorant of it "for their own protection" - it's about 100 times worse when the friend is your lover with whom you've been living for the past three years.

Rifneno said:

Beyond that, Anders did nothing but prove that mages were exactly what Meredith said they were. There was a lot of ineffective leadership that lead up to Anders taking the action he did, but that doesn't mean he should have taken it. But the large problem here was Meredith, which should have been taken care of by.

He didn't prove anything about anyone but himself (and Justice?).  Condemning a many because of the actions of one is exactly why Meredith is off her rocker.

I should have been more clear: Anders gave reason for the people who were on the fence to buy into the mentality that mages are a danger. He can't claim to act on behalf of all mages and then expect all mages not to suffer, whether directly or indirectly, because of those actions. This is not to say I think the Rite of Annulment should have been declared (in fact, I think that was just more proof that Meredith was completely bat****), but I am saying, it's really bad PR for the mages, and doesn't do anything to further their cause. Maybe mages all over Thedas have been inspired to rebel, but that's going to result in so many more mages dying than is necessary. I really change could have been affected in a much less violent and destructive way.

Rifneno said:

Anyway, Elthina was incompetent at best, probably almost criminally negligent of the well-being of the mages who were supposed to be in her charge, but honestly, even so, I don't think she was malicious, and I don't think she deserved to die. She seemed like a nice old lady. She shouldn't have risen as high as she did, though. An effective leader would never have allowed the Meredith situation to escalate to the point that it did. I'm surprised Divine Justinia didn't have her ass forcibly removed after Leliana reported back.

If a parent sits back and lets one of their children beat another to death, would society still think of them as "a nice old lady" afterwards?

That's a fair point, but even if somebody isn't a nice old lady, that doesn't mean they deserve to be killed.

[Girl on a Rock]

Rifneno wrote...

OldMan91 wrote...

The problem I think isn't with the Chantry itself. The existence of religious organizations isn't wrong or immoral. The real issue is when a religious organization is able to enact and enforce laws, despite the government. There is no real separation of church and state in Thedas, and this is a problem.

One of the criticisms by Anders to the Templars and the Chantry for example is that mages are treated as non-people or "cursed" with magic. This attitude would disappear if a law enforcement such as the Templars were secular to being with. Allow each state to implement its' own laws regarding the treatment of magic and mages. Countries in Thedas should not be beholden to the Orlesian Chantry. The Chantry should not possess the full monopoly of lyrium or even a military branch within their organization, which could potentially be used to overthrow governments not in line with the Chantry beliefs. Indeed, this is what happens in Kirkwall after the Viscount is killed. The Templars take over, with Meredith as their leader. Effectively she has become a dictator and uses her templars to pursue extreme anti-mage measures, including punishing "collaborators" (e.g. people who harbor apostates or provide them with a meal).

This.  Giving that kind of power to a religious organization never ends well.

Second, for reals.

[DPSSOC]

Plaintiff wrote...
Yeah... Magneto believes mutants are superior to men and should be in charge. Anders just wants the basic freedoms that a normal man has. So not really that similar, actually.

I never claimed they were exactly alike.  Both want freedom for their people and believe violence is the only way to achieve it, both do not hesitate to risk innocent people to achieve their goals, and both point to the reactions to their activities and say, "See I was right."

Plaintiff wrote...
The Chantry should be antagonized. Karl should try to escape, any mage who is dissatisfied in the Circle should.

 
And I agree, whole-heartedly, but you cannot poke a wild animal with a stick, get attacked, and use that as justification that the animal is dangerous.  The Templar treatment of mages at the beginning is monstrous and needs to end I agree, the Templar crackdown is a response to how their opponents have conducted themselves.  Mages have started fires to destroy their phylacteries, imprisoned; tortured; and possessed people to spread subversion amongst the Templars, they've turned to Blood Magic time and time again.

Is the Templar response good?  No.  Is it acceptable?  No.  Is it understandable?  Certainly.

Plaintiff wrote...
Thrask? Well... you'd think Anders would want sympathetic templars to help him work the system, but he's fine with lying to them as an alternative, which is what I do, so I'm not that fussed. And at that point in the game, the only apparently evil mages have been killed.

 
You just let one of them go.  She's complicit in arson if nothing else, she expresses neither hesitation or remorse over murdering someone to escape, and we have nothing but her word that she's not a Blood Mage.

Plaintiff wrote...
Killing Grace would be just as unfair, as much as the ungrateful little **** infuriates me in subsequent playthroughs.

Of course it wouldn't be fair which is why I don't simply kill her or allow her to be killed I try to turn her in.

Plaintiff wrote...
And maybe the Hawke I roleplay is a selfish, callous, awful man, but yeah, I value my friend (and as it happens, lover) over one old woman I wasn't fond of and several I didn't even know. I was genuinely more concerned with protecting Anders than with the greater ramifications of his actions. It was somewhat jarring to have Anders say "You would've felt honor-bound to stop me" when in fact, I felt no such compulsion, at all.

I'm with you: I certainly value Anders life over those lost, he's my friend after all.  What bothers me most about Anders' actions is he lied to me; the coward didn't have the guts to ask me for my help and if his only defense was he knew I wouldn't agree he should have done it himself.  His actions were wrong (according to my moral sensibilities), he abused my trust, and made me complicit in murder and for that he dies.  My Hawke's a selfish, callous, awful man too.

Plaintiff wrote...
Oh fine. Let me rephrase: they support the subjugation of mages, and to me that's just as bad.

 
Thank you.

Plaintiff wrote...
My point is that as far as I'm concerned, the Chantry is an oppressive, dictatorial power, and their treatment of mages is a violation of everything I believe about basic human rights. Anyone who subscribes to the beliefs of the Chantry is, in my opinion, not worth the oxygen that goes to waste fuelling their bigoted brains.

And you are certainly entitled to that opinion, and I certainly agree with the bolded bit.  My point is if you sink to their level, if you punish all for the actions of some, you are no better than they are.

Modifié par DPSSOC, 10 avril 2011 - 05:13 .

[da0Xeffect2]

Elthina: I agree that she was more active than she let on. She did not do what we wanted and took the most peaceful rout; however, the peaceful rout was just prolonging the mages' struggles. This is why Anders decided that she and the rest of the Chantry needed to go. I really do like Elthina. She isn't abusing her powers like the religious powers did in reality way back when. Perhaps that is what was needed but she did not which made her special.

Anders: Anders is an extremist. No doubt about that. We do know he became like this because of Justice which became Vengeance. After his Chantry-exploding antics, I could not bring myself to kill the guy. In reality, I do not approve of the death penalty. This affects my whole view point on the situation. The death penalty is basically 'an eye for an eye' solution. To clarify, I do not agree with Anders plan but I'm not going to kill him either. The whole "I kill you because you killed them" scenario is hypocritical. If I had the option, I would've liked to talk myself out of killing people at all times in the game.

[blothulfur]

Maybe i'm just being a suspicious bastard but is it only me who thought sister Petrice was acting directly on Elthinas orders and that the old bird was hiding behind the mask of do sod all and say less. Power behind the throne kind of thing who eventually got bit in the arse by Anders big bang.

[ziloe]

Yellopranda wrote...

RavenB wrote...

Blowing up the Chantry was an act of war. Were there casualties who weren't of Chantry employ? I'm sure, but so is the way of war. When a military base is bombed, there are innocents there. Soldiers families, non-military employees. "Surgical strikes" in real life almost always lead to casualties and injuries unintended. That's just how it goes.

An act of war? Where were the soldiers Anders attacked? Were was the army he was fighting? The chantry was a civilian target, not a military one. Very few modern democracies would condone deliberately attacking a civilian target. Not specifically targeting civilians is an important principle, because civilians are largely defenseless and when armies don't follow this principle it inevitably leads to a huge cost in human life, like in russia or china in WW2.

Sorry, trying not to sound too harsh here, but i've got to say that your definition of war is something i've only heard from extreme religious groups, at least in modern times.

LOL! Yeah, okay there. There is video footage of civilian people in Afghanistan running into a mosque and then the place being bombed from above.

[RavenB]

Wulfram wrote...

RavenB wrote...

They follow her upon seeing the Chantry explode. That doesn't suggest to me that they'd take her command over Elthina's if she actually gave it.

So why did they suddenly become disloyal to the Chantry in the 3 years after Elthina's death, then?

I would imagine the shock of the Chantry explosion wore off and they realized they were slaughtering innocent people at the order of a mad woman. But that's just my guess.

[IanPolaris]

RavenB wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

RavenB wrote...

They follow her upon seeing the Chantry explode. That doesn't suggest to me that they'd take her command over Elthina's if she actually gave it.

So why did they suddenly become disloyal to the Chantry in the 3 years after Elthina's death, then?

I would imagine the shock of the Chantry explosion wore off and they realized they were slaughtering innocent people at the order of a mad woman. But that's just my guess.

I have a darker view.  I think the Templars have reverted to their Inquistor roots and decided that Meridith's only problem is that she dodn't go far enough and have declared Jihad on all users of magic.

-Polaris

[Rifneno]

Girl on a Rock wrote...

Ah, but he took that choice out of her hands. As it happens, my character wouldn't have helped him or supported him in that act, but he also admits he doesn't want that either. It was a ****ty thing to do. I'm far from an Anders hater, and even after all this, I still like him (in fact, I'm kind of dreading killing his ass in this playthrough, but I'm trolling for some Sebastian Rivalmance... >.> ). But in the end, it's a betrayal, or at least removing free choice from the hands of someone he claims to love pretty deeply. That's just not cool in my book.

I agree, it was at least a betrayal of trust.  Obviously some options are left out for good reason, but I think the perfect punishment for him after tricking a lawful-good lover into that wouldn't be to kill him but rather to see Hawke turn the blade on him/herself in guilt over their part in it and anguish over the betrayal.  Dark, but still not as dark as zombie mom.

Really though, we can only guess how much of Anders is left at that point and how much of it is a spirit closing in on demonhood.  He talks in earlier acts about how he has to repress Justice because Justice always wants to go for templar blood right now.  There's also some hinting (especially on the rival path) that Justice is taking over more and more by Act III.  It seems like Anders, the real Anders, is only there just enough to watch in horror and grieve over Justice's continued descent into hell.  If so, especially terrible when you consider it all came from an act of kindness, trying to save the life of a friend.

Rifneno wrote:

Oh, I know that Anders isn't lying. I'm a mage supporter from way back - hell, in Origins I was like "Why the hale the mages gotta live in this tower, and/or why can't I play an apostate? And why are they called apostates, a word that defines them only in the context of their antagonistic relationship to a hegemony that's oppressive and destructive?" 

OK, a little nerdy, I know, but I did think that. LOL.  

Hey, it could be worse, those of us that had no idea it was a real word felt like idiots when we found out.    I missed all the subtext about mages being treated poorly.  Which I can't believe in hindsight, it wasn't that well hidden.  I guess I was just completely focusing on the Blight story.

Anyway, I believe he's telling the truth, I believe the Chantry's treatment of mages is really and truly unethical and wrong. It's Anders' methods that I have beef with; I'm not into killing civilians, and I'm not into lying to lovers. Right up until the point that Chantry blew, my character had been 100% behind Anders (you know, except for when he was going to kill that little mageling girl). When you're friends with someone, working closely with them, for seven years, it's a huge breach of trust not only to pull some shenanigans like that, but to involve them in it, even if you kept them ignorant of it "for their own protection" - it's about 100 times worse when the friend is your lover with whom you've been living for the past three years. 

Yeah, I'm not too sure why that quest works the way it does.  If you don't help him, he still gets the stuff.  So why bother?  I suppose the same reason Orsino becomes so overcome with grief that he goes harvester when he's surrounded only by powerful allies.

As for him almost killing Ella, they really should've explained it better.  My theory is that the amount of control Justice gets depends on Anders' emotional state, especially anger.  He says something along the lines of "he only comes out when I lose control" in the beginning.  The reason he went so far on that occasion was because he just witnessed something so incredibly horrifying.  A group of templars were going to going to cut out some girl's soul, then use her as a sex slave, because she was trying to say goodbye to her mother.  I can see how he would've gone extra strength crazy at that.  I could've killed 12 templars with a spork.  Not excusing that he turns on an innocent person, but at least it'd make more sense.

That's a fair point, but even if somebody isn't a nice old lady, that doesn't mean they deserve to be killed.

Maybe.  But it does mean most people wouldn't shed any tears over their death either.

[Asguardwolf]

Just wanna know howcome I cant seem to find the spell Anders used to blow up the chantry in his spell book.

[AlexXIV]

My problem with Ethina is that she 'keeps peace' between mages and templars, but doesn't help solve the problems. She just pacifies the mages basically but the situation does not get resolved. It gets worse over the years. She is like a politician telling everyone that everything is ok while things go to hell. Fact is she is the most powerful person in Kirkwall for 30 years and everything that happens in this time is more or less her fault. Maybe not only her fault, but ... well ... if you are the one in power you should also be the first who takes the blame. Whatever she did, it doesn't look to me that it was enough. And putting it as if she is some sort of innocent is just a bit naive. That's like saying the pope is not responsible for anything going on the catholic church.

[RavenB]

IanPolaris wrote...

RavenB wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

RavenB wrote...

They follow her upon seeing the Chantry explode. That doesn't suggest to me that they'd take her command over Elthina's if she actually gave it.

So why did they suddenly become disloyal to the Chantry in the 3 years after Elthina's death, then?

I would imagine the shock of the Chantry explosion wore off and they realized they were slaughtering innocent people at the order of a mad woman. But that's just my guess.

I have a darker view.  I think the Templars have reverted to their Inquistor roots and decided that Meridith's only problem is that she dodn't go far enough and have declared Jihad on all users of magic.

-Polaris

I actually misread that and thought he asked about the templars in Kirkwall.

The templars as a whole, I don't think are subject to Meredith or Elthina in a realistic sense. They only know stories of them and inferr from there. I don't really believe all the templars decided to go crazy and start killing every mage they could find. I think they probably broke apart into groups with different agendas. But what the templars outside of Kirkwall did, I think does not speak for how well the templars in Kirkwall would follow Meredith against Elthina. They didn't see what actually happened.

Modifié par RavenB, 10 avril 2011 - 05:44 .

[Girl on a Rock]

Rifneno wrote...

Maybe.  But it does mean most people wouldn't shed any tears over their death either.

Haha, I think we agree on most everything! 

[EmperorSahlertz]

ziloe wrote...

Yellopranda wrote...

RavenB wrote...

Blowing up the Chantry was an act of war. Were there casualties who weren't of Chantry employ? I'm sure, but so is the way of war. When a military base is bombed, there are innocents there. Soldiers families, non-military employees. "Surgical strikes" in real life almost always lead to casualties and injuries unintended. That's just how it goes.

An act of war? Where were the soldiers Anders attacked? Were was the army he was fighting? The chantry was a civilian target, not a military one. Very few modern democracies would condone deliberately attacking a civilian target. Not specifically targeting civilians is an important principle, because civilians are largely defenseless and when armies don't follow this principle it inevitably leads to a huge cost in human life, like in russia or china in WW2.

Sorry, trying not to sound too harsh here, but i've got to say that your definition of war is something i've only heard from extreme religious groups, at least in modern times.

LOL! Yeah, okay there. There is video footage of civilian people in Afghanistan running into a mosque and then the place being bombed from above.

And that makes it acceptable because?....

[Melca36]

blothulfur wrote...

Maybe i'm just being a suspicious bastard but is it only me who thought sister Petrice was acting directly on Elthinas orders and that the old bird was hiding behind the mask of do sod all and say less. Power behind the throne kind of thing who eventually got bit in the arse by Anders big bang.

Theres more to the Chantry than we know about and hopefully it will come out in DA:3

I think it would be awesome if people discovered the Chantry they defend turned out to be a huge scam.
That everything they believed in turned out to be a lie.

[Melca36]

Plaintiff wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Elthina - Don't like her, never liked her. Glad she's dead. Pathetic, simpering, ignorant, biased **** if you ask me. People can say all they want that she was "working behind the scenes". Too damn bad, I didn't see anything. She should've picked a side, she should've backed Meredith into a corner. She should've taken some goddamn action. I was not the least bit sorry that she was dead, and if Anders had asked me I would've stabbed her in the neck myself, and Meredith too.

So it's more important to be seen to do something and cause a disaster than to quietly do something which might actually work?

edit: The several tons of flying masonry must have killed a lot of people over a wide area.

Try? Try what? Elthina's made it clear that she intends to preserve the status quo, which I don't agree with. If she intended to do anything other than mediate then I might be swayed slightly in her favour. If she even said "I will have Meredith removed and appoint Cullen as Knight-Commander" that would be a drastic improvement. But she doesn't say anything. She says she'll make them "see reason". "Reason" in her case means convincing Orsino, (and by extension, the rest of the mages) to shut up and deal with it, probably because they're "too dangerous" and "not real people". She is a Grand Cleric, which means she believes the inane bullcrap the Chantry spouts about magic and mages. There is no chance of her changing things. Even Sebastian admits this in party banter, though he lauds her apparent laziness or cowardice as some sort of virtue.

So yes, it's more important to be seen to take action.

And I don't really care if the flying chunks of stone hit a few nameless background jerks. saves me having to listen to their prattle if I accidentally walk near them. If I had to hear one more "Fine day Serah", I was liable to flip my **** in the Market Square anyway.

I agree!!

If people fear mages so much...they need to STOP using them for healing and other purposes and then lock them back up! <_<

I hope we get more info of the Chantry and how everything people believed in for 1000 years turned out to be a HUGE MASSIVE LIE.

Flemeth said change was coming and this is it.

[Rifneno]

Girl on a Rock wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Maybe.  But it does mean most people wouldn't shed any tears over their death either.

Haha, I think we agree on most everything! 

Aww, but then I don't get to use a quote as a jumping off point to rant more about the Chantry.  

thurmanator692 wrote...

@OP. You made it through the game without killing a single person?

THIS MAN/WOMAN DESERVES A MEDAL!

Oh snap.  I thought about mentioning that, but I've seen where that trains heads...

Melca36 wrote...

I hope we get more info of the Chantry and how everything people believed in for 1000 years turned out to be a HUGE MASSIVE LIE.

I think Andraste was actually a force for good like they claim.  But people have tainted her name over 1,000 to the point that if she comes back, the army she raises will be launched against the Chantry perverting her teachings.

It's like an agnostic friend of mine once told me, "It's not God I have a problem with; it's his fan club."

[RavenB]

Melca36 wrote...

blothulfur wrote...

Maybe i'm just being a suspicious bastard but is it only me who thought sister Petrice was acting directly on Elthinas orders and that the old bird was hiding behind the mask of do sod all and say less. Power behind the throne kind of thing who eventually got bit in the arse by Anders big bang.

Theres more to the Chantry than we know about and hopefully it will come out in DA:3

I think it would be awesome if people discovered the Chantry they defend turned out to be a huge scam.
That everything they believed in turned out to be a lie.

This seems slightly stretched to me. Did Petrice just clam up and allow herself to be sacrificed when Elthina decided to offer her up, fully realizing this was happening, or did Elthina manipulate her to think it was her idea? She never protests that anyone else was involved, or that Elthina previously supported her sentiments. I'm not going to outright dismiss the chance that an extremely devoted individual would think allowing themselves to be the sacrifice would be the "right" path instead of allowing the whole order to come down. Petrice did the exact same with her body guard, so it maybe shouldn't be as unexpected as I'm finding it. But I have to admit even with my not being a fan of the Chantry in the slightest, it would definitely surprise me.

[barryl89]

It's like an agnostic friend of mine once told me, "It's not God I have a problem with; it's his fan club."

A lot of people feel that. The core teachings of Jesus are admirable if a little naive when faced with humanity.

I myself am an Atheist, but I don't tend to criticise people for believing in something.
I have an issue with those presupposing that the Maker is not real based on their own real world beliefs. This is a fantasy world with dragons and magic, why can their not be an all powerful being? Lots of fantasy series use that model, Tolkien and Lewis to use the most obvious examples.

The world is not black and white. This is the one truth I live by. Murder is only murder if it is unjustified. What is required to justify a killing? That I leave up to you.