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[EmperorSahlertz]

barryl89 wrote...

It's like an agnostic friend of mine once told me, "It's not God I have a problem with; it's his fan club."

A lot of people feel that. The core teachings of Jesus are admirable if a little naive when faced with humanity.

I myself am an Atheist, but I don't tend to criticise people for believing in something.
I have an issue with those presupposing that the Maker is not real based on their own real world beliefs. This is a fantasy world with dragons and magic, why can their not be an all powerful being? Lots of fantasy series use that model, Tolkien and Lewis to use the most obvious examples.

The world is not black and white. This is the one truth I live by. Murder is only murder if it is unjustified. What is required to justify a killing? That I leave up to you.

They are probably just being too used to the Forgotten Realms setting. I mean do those gods ever stop medelling?

[RavenB]

I think the maker probably is real, in some context. I just think he sounds like as much or more of a jerk than his followers. XP

(This is not in relation to real world views, but to the story his own followers relate of him.)

[Rifneno]

RavenB wrote...

This seems slightly stretched to me. Did Petrice just clam up and allow herself to be sacrificed when Elthina decided to offer her up, fully realizing this was happening, or did Elthina manipulate her to think it was her idea? She never protests that anyone else was involved, or that Elthina previously supported her sentiments. I'm not going to outright dismiss the chance that an extremely devoted individual would think allowing themselves to be the sacrifice would be the "right" path instead of allowing the whole order to come down. Petrice did the exact same with her body guard, so it maybe shouldn't be as unexpected as I'm finding it. But I have to admit even with my not being a fan of the Chantry in the slightest, it would definitely surprise me.

I agree.  I dispise that old witch for letting the templars in her city get so bad, but even I don't think she had anything to do with Petrice.  Even if only because I think a conspiracy requires actually doing something, which Elthina is vehemently opposed to.

Then again, Leliana played us all it seems.  Why not another?  =/

barryl89 wrote...

It's like an agnostic friend of mine once told me, "It's not God I have a problem with; it's his fan club."

A lot of people feel that. The core teachings of Jesus are admirable if a little naive when faced with humanity.

I myself am an Atheist, but I don't tend to criticise people for believing in something.
I have an issue with those presupposing that the Maker is not real based on their own real world beliefs. This is a fantasy world with dragons and magic, why can their not be an all powerful being? Lots of fantasy series use that model, Tolkien and Lewis to use the most obvious examples.

The world is not black and white. This is the one truth I live by. Murder is only murder if it is unjustified. What is required to justify a killing? That I leave up to you.

Aye.  Not believing that a storyteller is telling a story where a supreme power exists simply because you don't believe one exists in real life, is idiotic.  Especially since hero vs. supreme power is how 104.8% of RPG's end.

I commend you on the line about murder and justification.  Extremely well put.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
They are probably just being too used to the Forgotten Realms setting. I mean do those gods ever stop medelling?

Gods (and I capitalize that because it's the start of a sentence, not because I'm using it as a name... in case anyone is the way-too-sensitive-about-religion type) interfering is pretty much a staple of gaming.  Especially RPGs.

[DPSSOC]

thurmanator692 wrote...

Like i said, you (as Hawke) have killed 50 times as many folks in the game as anybody else

yes but how much of that is because people attack you?  How often over the course of the game does Hawke just walk up to random people and jam a knife in their eye?  That's the difference here; Anders didn't attack a group of Templars persecuting mages, didn't target the Templars at all, he targeted the Chantry.  Great choice for a symbolic strike, no a sound military target.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Rifneno wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
They are probably just being too used to the Forgotten Realms setting. I mean do those gods ever stop medelling?

Gods (and I capitalize that because it's the start of a sentence, not because I'm using it as a name... in case anyone is the way-too-sensitive-about-religion type) interfering is pretty much a staple of gaming.  Especially RPGs.

So, because that gods interfere in the business of mortals in other RPGs, it prooves that the Maker is false in Thedas?

[RavenB]

My Hawke assassinated a guy just to get into the city, so he doesn't have much room to talk about murder. XD

But even so, I think the "self-defense" theory wears off when you're constantly putting yourself in situations where you know your very presence will be seen as an attack by most. You continue to choose the path of violence for whatever reason you put in Hawke's imaginary head; money, power, even just thinking you're making the city better. The fact that you make a choice to continue strapping a weapon on your back and barging into extremely dangerous and high pressure situations with a group of equally armed murder-machines of human beings really does a lot to negate your "he attack first!" shield.

[ziloe]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

ziloe wrote...

Yellopranda wrote...

RavenB wrote...

Blowing up the Chantry was an act of war. Were there casualties who weren't of Chantry employ? I'm sure, but so is the way of war. When a military base is bombed, there are innocents there. Soldiers families, non-military employees. "Surgical strikes" in real life almost always lead to casualties and injuries unintended. That's just how it goes.

An act of war? Where were the soldiers Anders attacked? Were was the army he was fighting? The chantry was a civilian target, not a military one. Very few modern democracies would condone deliberately attacking a civilian target. Not specifically targeting civilians is an important principle, because civilians are largely defenseless and when armies don't follow this principle it inevitably leads to a huge cost in human life, like in russia or china in WW2.

Sorry, trying not to sound too harsh here, but i've got to say that your definition of war is something i've only heard from extreme religious groups, at least in modern times.

LOL! Yeah, okay there. There is video footage of civilian people in Afghanistan running into a mosque and then the place being bombed from above.

And that makes it acceptable because?....

Oh, I'm not saying it's okay. I'm just saying it happens in real life too. 

[Rifneno]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
They are probably just being too used to the Forgotten Realms setting. I mean do those gods ever stop medelling?

Gods (and I capitalize that because it's the start of a sentence, not because I'm using it as a name... in case anyone is the way-too-sensitive-about-religion type) interfering is pretty much a staple of gaming.  Especially RPGs.

So, because that gods interfere in the business of mortals in other RPGs, it prooves that the Maker is false in Thedas?

I'm truly at a loss for how you misinterpretted what I said that badly.

[sphinxess]

Melca36 wrote...

blothulfur wrote...

Maybe i'm just being a suspicious bastard but is it only me who thought sister Petrice was acting directly on Elthinas orders and that the old bird was hiding behind the mask of do sod all and say less. Power behind the throne kind of thing who eventually got bit in the arse by Anders big bang.

Theres more to the Chantry than we know about and hopefully it will come out in DA:3

I think it would be awesome if people discovered the Chantry they defend turned out to be a huge scam.
That everything they believed in turned out to be a lie.

Just finding proof Androste was a mage could stir things up <like her original writings> then again, naw, they tossed everything related to Elves helping her so they will find a way to hide this too

[dualie11]

The OP has written an excellent mini-essay on DA2 morality and I would personally like to thank she/he for it. I have had some of the same thoughts, but could never express them in such a clear-sighted and eloquent way. Thank you.

[Kabraxal]

I'm glad more people are confused at how so many people can stand behind terrorists and murderers and feel justified and good about sticking up for such atrocity.

Still... the fact that there are so many is the reason this real world sucks. People actually do this bull in the real world and condone all the murder and death because of a delusional justification.

[Satyricon331]

I haven't read the entire thread, so I apologize if I'm repeating someone, but Oneiropolis seems on-target to me w/r/t Elthina.  We really don't know much about her or her position's powers to form judgments.  If I had to judge her on the information I have (admittedly prolly less than what's available since I've finished only once), I'd codemn her, but the situation seems too uncertain to me that I don't see a need to rush to judgment.  For all we know, over the 7 years that passed, she had schemes that actually made the situation much better than it would have been w/o her.  Perhaps that's true of anyone, but given her position as an important religious-office holder it seems substantially more plausible than for others.  I mean, why would she tell Hawke of a backroom scheme if she didn't have to?

[Oneiropolos]

Rifneno wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
They are probably just being too used to the Forgotten Realms setting. I mean do those gods ever stop medelling?

Gods (and I capitalize that because it's the start of a sentence, not because I'm using it as a name... in case anyone is the way-too-sensitive-about-religion type) interfering is pretty much a staple of gaming.  Especially RPGs.

So, because that gods interfere in the business of mortals in other RPGs, it prooves that the Maker is false in Thedas?

I'm truly at a loss for how you misinterpretted what I said that badly.

Feel like David Gaider yet with the way some people twist his posts?

[Super_Fr33k]

As I've said elsewhere regarding Anders, he chose an imperfect solution in an imperfect world. Could there have been some other way to spark a mage rebellion? Maybe. But killing Elthina was a damn effective way to do it, and it was not targetting an innocent bystander, though he certainly killed some. Wars have innocent casualties, and the difference between terrorist and freedom fighter is purely subjective.

Condemning Anders for killing innocent people also is a premature decision. People died from Anders' actions. How many would have died from his inaction, from the status quo continuing? How many more mages would have gone mad, destroying themselves and others in the process? How many would have committed suicide? Death was guaranteed whether he sparked rebellion or not. If he can choose deaths that bring about some good, should he not have done so?

Whether Anders made a good choice will be a historical determination depending upon whether mages gain equality without pursuing supremacy, and if a better society results. When it comes to acts of war/revolution, you have to let the chaos simmer before passing judgment.

Something DA focuses on is a lack of perfectly good choices. Anders believed he was choosing the lesser evil. It's fair to reserve judgment to see if he was right.

Of course, similar arguments could be made for Meredith, Elthina, Orsino and the Arishok. Meredith believed she was destroying mages for the greater good, Elthina hoped her inaction would allow an organic solution accepted by both sides, Orsino thought concealing mages' crimes and using blood magic would protect more good mages than bad, and the Arishok thought he was eliminating those perpetuating a chaotic, malformed society.

Similarly, their actions' merits and flaws could not be fully measured over a short period of time. We'd need alternate realities to see whose position would result in the best future for Kirkwall.

That's the beauty of moral ambiguity in RPGs; each person is right and wrong, and we can see what it's like to empower their plans. I personally side with Anders more than the others because he is seeking freedom, and he is rejecting the Chantry treating magic as something of an "original sin." I also believe allowing individuals to develop in their own ways ultimately results in a better society. Anders is the only one of the major players mentioned that shares that mindset.

Lastly, it should be pointed out that life is a cheap currency in DA games. It's a violent, ugly world, and diplomacy and mercy are luxuries. The Warden, and Hawke, killed many, many people. Some of them could have been redeemed or reasoned with. And yet we do not have that luxury, because there are big problems out there and we can't leave too many potential enemies alive. Violence is the undeniable answer in many circumstances in DA. Contrary to the thread title, there is an excuse for murder... rather frequently, it turns out.

[Boiny Bunny]

I agree with some of what you said - but not the comments about Elthina.

Various people in the game (including Elthina herself) make multiple comments about her doing her very best to ease tensions by talking to both parties and trying to get them to see some common ground.

For all intents and purposes, that is all that she could do. The game also makes it quite clear that even as insane as she was, Meredith was unwilling to cross Elthina - it was only when the Chantry was destroyed and Elthina killed that Meredith took complete control and ordered the mages executed.

[GearRust]

See.

The statement "There is no excuse for Murder".

It sounds like a challenge.

[GenericPlayer2]

The Arishok: Religions and cultures that provide followers with certainty have a strong draw. This is not only part of the DA universe, but part of the human existence. This is why people like the Qunari are depicted in almost every famous sci fi or fantasy out there. Be they Klingons, Mimbari, or Krogan, they all have a strict code they follow at the cost of their lives or the lives of others. People like the Arishok will always have a draw.

Anders: Yes he is a terrorist, but his cause is just. People are sympathizing with the cause, not with the acts this person takes,

Elthina: Her issue is blind faith in diety and loss of touch with what is really going on.

[Wolfva2]

Yellopranda wrote...

RavenB wrote...

Blowing up the Chantry was an act of war. Were there casualties who weren't of Chantry employ? I'm sure, but so is the way of war. When a military base is bombed, there are innocents there. Soldiers families, non-military employees. "Surgical strikes" in real life almost always lead to casualties and injuries unintended. That's just how it goes.

An act of war? Where were the soldiers Anders attacked? Were was the army he was fighting? The chantry was a civilian target, not a military one. Very few modern democracies would condone deliberately attacking a civilian target. Not specifically targeting civilians is an important principle, because civilians are largely defenseless and when armies don't follow this principle it inevitably leads to a huge cost in human life, like in russia or china in WW2.

Sorry, trying not to sound too harsh here, but i've got to say that your definition of war is something i've only heard from extreme religious groups, at least in modern times.

Bearing in mind we're talking about a fantasy world with a medieval setting.....
First off, there are no Democracies in Thedas.  There are kings and assorted royalty which lord over the world.  Second, only in the last couple of decades has war NOT involved civilian centers, and it is a hallmark of the West that considers civilians to be non-combatives to begin with.  So, let's take a look what happened in real medieval battles.  Lessee, towns full of civilians were conquered, the women raped and taken as spoils, the men and boys (except the cute ones that were made catamites) slaughtered.  Villages were often burned to the ground.  Castles and walled cities full of civilians would find themselves besieged and forced to starve.  Enemies would use catapults to launch decaying animals into the city as a form of biological warfare.  Third, you really should judge a time on their own standards and not yours.  No excuse for murder?  In Thedas?  Make a bet?  Murder is a way of life there.  Merchants and royalty vie for position by knocking each other off with hired assassins and mercenaries.

Anders seems to be a popular discussion.  Ok. First off, ask yourself this question.  Is Anders rational?  Lessee, he's got a spirit of Justice in him which seems to have changed into a spirit of vengeance.  He is paranoid beyond belief (in his defence...they really ARE out to get him).  Is he rational?  I'd say...no.  Even if the voices in your head are real, they're still voices in your head.  So WHY THE HECK are ya'll trying to attribute rationality to his actions?!?  The guy's crazy.  So yes, he decides to wipe out the whole church because it makes sense to him.  "Destroy the church, and people will be FORCED to take sides; the Circles will rebel from the chantry and we will fight for our freedom!"  It all makes sense to him. 

[Wolfva2]

By the way, Anders is not a terrorist. Terrorism is the attempt to change governmental policy by inflicting terror upon the populace. Anders is not trying to scare people. He's trying to start a civil war. Successfully, apparently. His goal was to shock people with a massive attack which could NOT be ignored; the Chantry would have to try and obliterate the mages, or at the very least clamp down on them with draconian measures. Doing this would force the Mages to fight back for survival, and all the little people in between would have to take sides. If Ander's was a terrorist, he would have blown up the marketplace.

Point in fact (since people keep bringing real life into it): who has killed more Muslims in the world since the US invaded Iraq? Answer: Muslims. In Iraq, who are the jihadis targetting? The military? Not really, although every now and then you get an IED or VBIED targetting a patrol. No, the most common target is the marketplace. The second most common target seems to be police recruitment lines. There aren't any Americans there; they're blowing up Iraqi women and children at the markets, and young Iraqi men just trying to get a job to support their families. Why do the jihadi's feel comfortable doing this? Because they believe that any good Muslim who dies in a jihadi's attack will also go to Heaven, to sit on the right side of Allah. Killing them is a favor, you see. It's guarenteeing them a place in Heaven. And bad Muslims, or non-muslims? Oh, those are the enemy and deserve to die.

[Sabriana]

Well, Meredith (as we are told by several NPC's, incl. Orsino) is already gunning for the Right of Annulment. The only one standing in her way is Elthina.

Anders did her a great favor by removing her biggest obstacle. Now she can go ahead with the Right. No wonder she doesn't arrest Anders on the spot. Dude did her a great big favor, after all.

With his action, he also scares the general populace even more, and those who started thinking that mages may have a point, will reverse that decision on the spot when they realize that a mage blew up the chantry. So with his action, he not only killed innocents (the raining debris can hardly have been healthy), he also dooms the mages, rips apart any hope that the general population will relax their fear, and he paves the way for Meredith.

*All of the above is personal opinion, except for the things we (the player) actually get told, i.e. Meredith gunning for the Right, etc.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Wolfva2 wrote...

Yellopranda wrote...

RavenB wrote...

Blowing up the Chantry was an act of war. Were there casualties who weren't of Chantry employ? I'm sure, but so is the way of war. When a military base is bombed, there are innocents there. Soldiers families, non-military employees. "Surgical strikes" in real life almost always lead to casualties and injuries unintended. That's just how it goes.

An act of war? Where were the soldiers Anders attacked? Were was the army he was fighting? The chantry was a civilian target, not a military one. Very few modern democracies would condone deliberately attacking a civilian target. Not specifically targeting civilians is an important principle, because civilians are largely defenseless and when armies don't follow this principle it inevitably leads to a huge cost in human life, like in russia or china in WW2.

Sorry, trying not to sound too harsh here, but i've got to say that your definition of war is something i've only heard from extreme religious groups, at least in modern times.

Bearing in mind we're talking about a fantasy world with a medieval setting.....
First off, there are no Democracies in Thedas.  There are kings and assorted royalty which lord over the world.  Second, only in the last couple of decades has war NOT involved civilian centers, and it is a hallmark of the West that considers civilians to be non-combatives to begin with.  So, let's take a look what happened in real medieval battles.  Lessee, towns full of civilians were conquered, the women raped and taken as spoils, the men and boys (except the cute ones that were made catamites) slaughtered.  Villages were often burned to the ground.  Castles and walled cities full of civilians would find themselves besieged and forced to starve.  Enemies would use catapults to launch decaying animals into the city as a form of biological warfare.  Third, you really should judge a time on their own standards and not yours.  No excuse for murder?  In Thedas?  Make a bet?  Murder is a way of life there.  Merchants and royalty vie for position by knocking each other off with hired assassins and mercenaries.

Anders seems to be a popular discussion.  Ok. First off, ask yourself this question.  Is Anders rational?  Lessee, he's got a spirit of Justice in him which seems to have changed into a spirit of vengeance.  He is paranoid beyond belief (in his defence...they really ARE out to get him).  Is he rational?  I'd say...no.  Even if the voices in your head are real, they're still voices in your head.  So WHY THE HECK are ya'll trying to attribute rationality to his actions?!?  The guy's crazy.  So yes, he decides to wipe out the whole church because it makes sense to him.  "Destroy the church, and people will be FORCED to take sides; the Circles will rebel from the chantry and we will fight for our freedom!"  It all makes sense to him. 

Temples, Mosques, and Churches has always been consdiered sanctuaries, especially during war time, where the non-combatants would seek shelter within. Even to this day it is illegal to directly target such a place (it is however legal to target the road outside, and since bombs got a bit drift....). But yeah, some particularly bloodthirsty invaders, or just adhernts to a different belief, like the vikings raiding churches, don't really care about the sanctuary of such buildings.

[Plaintiff]

barryl89 wrote...

It's like an agnostic friend of mine once told me, "It's not God I have a problem with; it's his fan club."

A lot of people feel that. The core teachings of Jesus are admirable if a little naive when faced with humanity.

I myself am an Atheist, but I don't tend to criticise people for believing in something.
I have an issue with those presupposing that the Maker is not real based on their own real world beliefs. This is a fantasy world with dragons and magic, why can their not be an all powerful being? Lots of fantasy series use that model, Tolkien and Lewis to use the most obvious examples.

The world is not black and white. This is the one truth I live by. Murder is only murder if it is unjustified. What is required to justify a killing? That I leave up to you.

By that token, why should there be a "Maker" just because there are dragons and magic? I have no problem with deities featuring in fictional works, but the fact is, the Maker hasn't yet, and there's no actual evidence of his existence. There are several alternate theologies in Thedas and all of them are equally unproven. Several characters within the world of Thedas express disbelief in the Maker, so why can't players?

[*]Leliana: I'm wondering Morrigan... do you believe in the Maker?
[*]Morrigan: Certainly not. I've no primitive fear of the moon such that I must place my faith in tales so that I may sleep at night.
[*]Leliana: But this can't all be an accident. Spirits, magic, all these wonderous things around us both dark and light. You know these things exist.
[*]Morrigan: The fact of their existence does not presuppose an intelligent design by some absentee father-figure.
[*]Leliana: So it is all random, then? A happy coincidence that we are all here?
[*]Morrigan: Attempting to impose order over chaos is futile. Nature is, by its very nature, chaotic.
[*]Leliana: I don't believe that. I believe we have a purpose. All of us.
[*]Morrigan: Yours, apparently being to bother me.
---------------------------------------------------
[*]Leliana: So you truly do not believe in any sort of higher power?
[*]Morrigan: It has been bothering you, I see. No, I do not. Must I?
[*]Leliana: What do you believe happens to you after you die then? Nothing?
[*]Morrigan: I do not go sit by the Maker's side, if that's what you mean.
[*]Leliana: Only those who are worthy are brought to the Maker's side. So many other sad souls are left to wander in the void, hopeless and forever lost.
[*]Morrigan: And what evidence of this have you? I see only spirits, no wandering ghosts of wicked disbelievers.
[*]Leliana: It must be so sad to look forward to nothing, to feel no love and seek no reward in the afterlife.
[*]Morrigan: Yes, the anguish tears at me so. You have seen through me to my sad, sad core.
[*]Leliana: Now you're simply mocking me.
[*]Morrigan: You notice? It appears your perceptive powers know no bounds.
----------------------------------------------------
[*]Leliana: Let me ask you this, then, Morrigan. What if there really was a Maker?
[*]Morrigan: Then I would wonder why He has abandoned His creation. It seems terribly irresponsible of Him.
[*]Leliana: He left us because we were determined to make our own way, even if we hurt outselves, and He could not bear to watch.
[*]Morrigan: But how do you know? You cannot ask Him this. Perhaps He has gone to a new creation elsewhere, and abandoned this as a dismal failure, best forgotten.
[*]Leliana: I do not need to know because I have faith. I believe in Him and feel His hope and His love.
[*]Morrigan: "Faith." How quickly those who have no answers invoke that word.
[*]Leliana: How can someone who practices magic have so little capacity to believe in that which she cannot see?
[*]Morrigan: Magic is real. I can touch it and command it and I need no faith for it to fill me up inside. If you are looking for your higher power, there it is.

[Yellopranda]

Girl on a Rock wrote...

Oh my! Such a heated debate. But this game really brings it out - I've definitely ranted enough on my own time with friends about some of these issues. But just to throw in my two cents:

The Arishok: I have respect for the Arishok. Not because he's a big guy with a deep voice and an 8-pack, but because he's very principled and disciplined, as the Qunari generally seem to be. While Qunari values are radically different than the ones we've been exposed to among Fereldans, Kirkwallers, the Dalish, and the sprinkling of other cultures we've seen in the DA universe, I think it's a bit too easy to dismiss them, and the Arishok, as mass murderers. Certainly the Arishok was willing to go to war with Kirkwall, but he earnestly believed that he was doing so as a matter of moral and ethical obligation. He believes unwaveringly in order as it's defined by the Qun. Does that mean he was right? Well, not in my opinion, and not in a lot of other people's who hold typically Western values. However, I do have to respect the fact that he is principled. He sticks to his guns, he fulfills his obligations, and he protects those in his care. He's actually a lot like Sten from DA:O, and I think Sten from DA:O would have wholeheartedly supported everything the Arishok did, right down to the single-combat battle to the death. Of course, people who hate the Arishok might not have liked Sten much, either, but honestly, there aren't that many military or political leaders, especially in Thedas, who haven't gotten their hands dirty - in fact, even King Alistair, whom is a pretty decent, ethical guy, could probably bathe in the blood of the people he's personally - nevermind what his army has done - killed many times over. The Arishok is just straightforward about it, and holds a worldview that's really quite alien from the Western philosophies on which the Fereldan and Kirkwaller ethics we've seen so far seem to be based. We also don't really know everything about the Arishok - in one of the codices, it talks about how the army is only one part of the Qunari's larger body, and that going to a Qunari city is necessary to understand the whole. I really, really, really, REALLY hope Bioware lets us do that, because I think the Qunari represent one of the more fascinating cultures I've seen introduced in a fantasy universe, like, ever.

Meredith: Oh, Meredith. I think it's hard for me, at least, to really talk about Meredith and her merits because from almost the beginning of the game, she's starting to be lyrium-addled, and only becomes progressively more so as time goes on. I mean, we don't get many indicators of what she was like prior to the Deep Roads expedition, but it's plausible that she may have had a bit of an addiction to it even before then, given what we've learned about the way the Chantry keeps the templars in line. But that's just speculation. What we do know is that the lyrium idol that Meredith converted into a sword be makin' people cray cray, and cray cray she surely was. I'm not sure what the arguments have been in support of Meredith because I've been fairly insulated from player/fan discussion until very recently, but just to start, Meredith's ideas that every mage has to be locked up in his or her cell and confined strictly to the Gallows is really oppressive. I honestly can see the point about mages posing a danger - they can and sometimes do. (Though I think the way the game handled portraying this was problematic in a number of ways, but that's another post, another topic.) However, they were essentially running an interment camp where everyone who even possessed the potential to do harm had to be locked up. The problem with that is that by that logic, human, elf, dwarf, and Qunari in Thedas should have been locked up, because I tell you what, they've all done pretty ****ty things, and without the excuse of being possessed by a demon. Meredith's extremism was very biased and not at all ethical, and the Chantry's tacit support of it was really unforgivable given the principles of the Chantry as an organization meant to be spiritual and beneficial to sentient life in the world. So I don't really get supporting Meredith, especially since in the end she really revealed herself to be a total crazyhead.

Anders: Anders - oh Anders. You break my HEART. In my first playthrough of the game, I avoided spoilers like the plague, I was so excited to romance Anders because I'd wanted to in Awakenings, but there'd been no opportunity, and despite his diminished playfulness and sense of humor (and his newfound temperamental personality), I really enjoyed his character. Even though she was a rogue, my first character was very pro-mage, given that her dad and her sister/bff were mages, and she was very supportive of Anders.

Until he committed an act of terrorism and mass murder, and not only that, lied to her to make her an accomplice to it.

And thus is the trouble with Anders. Whatever word we want to throw on it (I think 'abomination' is a really loaded term and despite the skew of the game, unfair in some cases), he was forever changed when he merged with Justice, and on the personal friendship/relationship level, there is nothing more important to him than his cause. That betrayal is extraordinarily difficult, in my book, to forgive, despite my character having been completely in love with him - friend romance, not rival romance - and having honestly been aligned with him politically, if not as radically.

As to the ethics of his actions, Anders' actions may have been an act of war, but we never got to see the other mages who were behind it. In fact, we were very much lead to believe that Anders acted pretty much entirely on his own, even if after the fact other mages might have been glad of it. I would say that the Chantry itself is difficult to categorize as a civilian target, but it's also not quite accurate to call it a military one. The Grand Cleric did have the ultimate authority over the templars, but there were also civilians in the Chantry pretty much whenever my party was in there during daylight hours. Beyond that, Anders did nothing but prove that mages were exactly what Meredith said they were. There was a lot of ineffective leadership that lead up to Anders taking the action he did, but that doesn't mean he should have taken it. But the large problem here was Meredith, which should have been taken care of by...

Elthina: Now, I don't think Elthina deserved to die. But for someone who'd been in the Chantry for 30 years and reached the position she had, she must have been mighty politically incompetent to have been unable to rein in Meredith at all. For all her mealy-mouthed protests that it wasn't her place to decide who was right, what she didn't acknowledge was that, at least as far as I could tell, Meredith answered to her, and in fact, she had every ability to prevent things from going as far as they had. Now, I've said before I think the way the game handled the mage problem wasn't as great as it could have been, but the fact remains that more and more mages in Kirkwall were turning to blood magic and demon dealing, as well as just turning away from the Circle in general, because of the continuous and ever-increasing oppression they suffered under Meredith's regime.

(Although personally, I think the Circle of Magi is a pretty unethical solution to begin with, and I don't buy this crap about mages being sooooooooooooooooooooo daaaaaangerous they need to be imprisoned. While against civilians this is true, the fact is, a well-trained templar can take down a mage of a similar level without too much trouble, I'd bet. In my second playthrough, with my first mage, during Night Terrors I mistakenly [and naively] thought I'd beat the system by bringing in Fenris, Varric, and Anders/Justice so that only one of my party members would turn on me and it would make the whole thing go faster. OH HUGE MISTAKE. After lowering the level to Casual, Fenris still handed all our asses to us FOUR TIMES IN A ROW, and generally in the span of a couple of minutes, even with my Mabari summoned. Though we could chalk that up to battle incompetence, which it might have been - I'm no expert, but DAMN, STILL. Two mages and an archer < one well-trained warrior [we killed the Pride demon in like two seconds, it was just Fenris that spanked us all].)

Anyway, Elthina was incompetent at best, probably almost criminally negligent of the well-being of the mages who were supposed to be in her charge, but honestly, even so, I don't think she was malicious, and I don't think she deserved to die. She seemed like a nice old lady. She shouldn't have risen as high as she did, though. An effective leader would never have allowed the Meredith situation to escalate to the point that it did. I'm surprised Divine Justinia didn't have her ass forcibly removed after Leliana reported back.

First (not only in reply to the quoted post), to those saying that this is a fictional world or very different from our own and that we can't apply our values to it. We are first and foremost discussing morality and ethics here, which are abstract concepts. One said that the Qunari couldn't exist in the real world and i agree. They are, from a story perspective, the representation of an idea. As such i see no problem in using that as a springboard to discuss other abstract concepts.

The world we live in is, for good or bad, our point of reference. It's almost impossible to divorce yourself from that. We could, of course, discuss the characters of Dragon Age only in the context of Thedas, but then it would hold no relevance outside of that world. People are welcome to do so, i have no issue with that. I on the other hand also want to discuss the world of Dragon Age in the context of our world, as i find the game becomes even deeper and more meaningful to me if i do so.

Now on to discussing the quoted post

To be understanding and accepting of other cultures is a fine notion, but one that can be taken to far. Not all cultures are equally good. I can think of many throughout history that i think none of us would like to see appear again. That is unless you subscrice to a post-modern relativistic philosophy where all point of view are equally valid, but then there would be no point in discussing ethics and morality at all, would there?

The Qunari certainly are principled and disciplined, but i fail to see how that makes their religion any less vile. That they are well equipped to conquer, subjugate Thedas peoples and institute their fanatical religious dictatorship is not a good thing, it just makes them even more frightening.

You say we should not judge the Arishok according to traditional western values, but then go on to judge the other characters discussed in this thread, by those same values. I wonder what special status you accord the Arishok that he should be the exception.

You seem to say with regards to the Arishok that we should be tolerant. I find it interesting that the qunari culture is one of the most intolerant fictional cultures i've ever come across. To be tolerant of intolerance is not tolererance, in my book. If one accepts intolerance and do not oppose it, one becomes guilty, in much the same way Elthina was, of allowing it to spread unchecked.

I have a hard time seeing how the Arishok can be respected. He does not think for himself, but blindly follows the tenets of the Qun. These tenets are set in stone, and they teach violence, war, subjugation and forceful conversion. He is a robot, not an actual person, programmed to act in a certain way. Maybe some people feel a certain allure towards having their free will and freedom taken away since they can be so hard to deal with. For my own part i prefer to hold onto them, even if that means i sometimes have to make difficult decisions.

Finally i'd like to ask you something that i have a hard time seeing. You, and others in this thread, seem to be saying that the worst thing about Anders act was his betrayal of you. That all the deaths he cause was inconsequential next to that. I hope this is not the case and please educate me if i'm wrong, but that just seems extraordinarily selfish, that the fact that he hurt your feelings was much worse than what he did to those people.

[OldMan91]

Kabraxal wrote...

I'm glad more people are confused at how so many people can stand behind terrorists and murderers and feel justified and good about sticking up for such atrocity.

Still... the fact that there are so many is the reason this real world sucks. People actually do this bull in the real world and condone all the murder and death because of a delusional justification.

Yes, forum posters who might agree or not care about what a fictional videogame character has done are clearly responsible for all the attrocities that are committed in the real world. Their attitudes to a videogame reflect 100% what they would do in real life.