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[jsteinhauer]

If all they need to do is provide closure, it could be done simply, quickly and cheaply with a cameo appearance a'la Alistair either with a child or without, depending on previous choices.

But, what seems more bound to happen (irrespective of the disposition of the god-baby) is a conflict between Flemeth and Morrigan. Flemeth needs to consume Morrigan (at least I recollect being led to believe in DAO that Flemeth had many daughters with whom she was an adversary, and she made them in order to maintain her immortality, so to speak). Plus, we know Morrigan wanted Flemeth dead, and while not specifically mentioned, this does not seem to bother Flemeth. I'd suppose that many of her daughters tried to have her assassinated.

And we need to quit thinking Flemeth is the Maker. We know that Flemeth is merely an abomination (in the Codex). A powerful one, at that, but not a god. The Maker is the real maker (an opinion only). Andraste was the human counterpart to that (Christ vis a vis God?) who was forsaken by mortals later to be worshipped. The Old Gods are false.

Modifié par jsteinhauer, 10 avril 2011 - 11:22 .

[RavenB]

jsteinhauer wrote...

If all they need to do is provide closure, it could be done simply, quickly and cheaply with a cameo appearance a'la Alistair either with a child or without, depending on previous choices.

But, what seems more bound to happen (irrespective of the disposition of the god-baby) is a conflict between Flemeth and Morrigan. Flemeth needs to consume Morrigan (at least I recollect being led to believe in DAO that Flemeth had many daughters with whom she was an adversary, and she made them in order to maintain her immortality, so to speak). Plus, we know Morrigan wanted Flemeth dead, and while not specifically mentioned, this does not seem to bother Flemeth. I'd suppose that many of her daughters tried to have her assassinated.

And we need to quit thinking Flemeth is the Maker. We know that Flemeth is merely an abomination (in the Codex). A powerful one, at that, but not a god. The Maker is the real maker (an opinion only). Andraste was the human counterpart to that (Christ vis a vis God?) who was forsaken by mortals later to be worshipped. The Old Gods are false.

The staff have said codex are only as reliable as who wrote them or provided the opinion. Morrigan tell us during Witch Hunt that Flemeth is not an abomination and "not even truly human" after further research into her grimoire. Morrigan's information is likely better at that point.

I'm not saying she's the Maker, but she's probably more than an abomination, as Morrigan says.

[TJPags]

Wee Joe Green wrote...

TJPags wrote...

But as I said earlier, the Morrigan storyline =/= the OGB storyline.  I'm not so sure that Bioware really intended the OGB to be the story - more the fact that Morrigan has a way to survive the AD.  I could easily be wrong here, of course.

But its conceivable that they never intended the OGB to be a big deal, and to the extent that it is, it may be a fan creation.  Speaking for my games, I always do the DR, but not because I always care about Morrigan, more because I simply see no reason to die if its not necessary.  And I could care less about the baby that results.

I doubt I'm the only one who feels that way.

But it's not always about whether they intended that child to be or form part of the future story.  It's about the fact it has opened an avenue which presents choices to them and a story which is clearly compelling on some level, else none of you would have bothered to come and share you opinions on my original post.

Any games company, like any money making company, is going to want to explore opportunities and especially ones which will sell and generate money and interest.  Clearly it may be they do not wish for this to be the premise of a future game or the next one; but it might be.

Well, lets see . . . Bioware has told us they have a plan for this series.  If the plan didn't involve the OGB, then including it would mean redirecting the series.

And at this point, as I've said ad nauseum, to include the OGB, they'd have to do some serious writing gymnastics, if not just flatly retcon the story and say "you did the DR".

This is a ticking bomb created because people have become obsessed with what is, perhaps, a sidebar.  Sort of like people who saved the werewolves now screaming that they want to know what happened to them . . .where did they settle?  What do they do?  How do they live with themselves?  That sounds like an interesting plotline, too, but it's completely incidental to what was intended  - which was to allow us to choose to lift a curse and free a people, or to slaughter a clan of Dalish elves.

As for why people post in this thread, it couldn't be because many of us are a bit exhausted by the constant "is Hawke the OGB?" threads we had before DA2, and now the "will we play as the OGB in DA3?" threads that we seem to get so many of. 

[Wee Joe Green]

To jsteinhauer...
Never assume we know anything.

It has been stated by Flemeth herself on more than one occassion that Flemeth and other personas are but some of the names she has elected to be known as throughout history.  We do not know what she is.

The codex is just the lore of what she is supposed to be known to be.

[Torax]

Another example. The latest codex we have for The Qunari are all from a Seer in a part of Rivain that is Qunari controlled. So it could be the outlook of the Qunari from a convert. Could be their true outlook or the Seer's personal one.

[RavenB]

I don't think it's surprising some people are more attached to the OGB than the werewolves, considering it may be the child of your PC character and their love interest. I don't doubt people taking that path are often more personally attached to it than cured werewolves.

[Wee Joe Green]

To Tjpags,

As you've made it so patently clear on several occassions that you're tired of posting on threads somewhat similar to this, then please don't feel the need to.

I only ever read some similar discussions on it prior to now and sought to talk about it with those who wanted to.  I wanted to talk about it and it seems other do to.  There is no compulsion for you to regurgitate views you're sick of posting.

[Emperor Iaius I]

jsteinhauer wrote...
The Old Gods are false.

What makes you say that?

[Torax]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

jsteinhauer wrote...
The Old Gods are false.

What makes you say that?

The Tevinter old gods so far each have had a name. They have also become an Arch Demon why it is known there are 2 more left. They were all Dragons as well.

Maybe they are meaning the Pantheon and the Forgotten Ones are false.  Part of me just wonders if the Forgotten Ones and the Old Gods are one and the same. But it's speculation on my part.

[Emperor Iaius I]

I'm . . . not sure what you're trying to say there.

And the Forgotten Ones and the Old Gods are not the same. Gaider has said that the Old Gods and the Elven Pantheon are distinct, and the Old Gods were alien entities, neither creators not created.

[mesmerizedish]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

I'm . . . not sure what you're trying to say there.

And the Forgotten Ones and the Old Gods are not the same. Gaider has said that the Old Gods and the Elven Pantheon are distinct, and the Old Gods were alien entities, neither creators not created.

He did?

Mr. Gaider is the OGB.

[Emperor Iaius I]

Ages ago. I only have a secondhand reference from a thread created last year, though. So I'm taking another person's word on it.

[Torax]

Forgotten Ones are not the Pantheon. The Forgotten Ones were the entities that the Pantheon fought until they both disappeared. So saying the Old Gods are not the Pantheon still fits that Theory. He'd have to say the Forgotten Ones are not the Old Golds. Since both were sunk bellow.

Modifié par Torax, 11 avril 2011 - 01:02 .

[Emperor Iaius I]

Here are the secondhand quotes:

AndreaDraco wrote...

draxynnus wrote...

A final piece of extrapolation: if the Archdemons are the Forgotten Ones having been released by the corruption of the Golden City, does this mean that it might also be possible to release the higher elven pantheon by a similar means? And would it necessarily be a good idea if it was possible?

I've long since caressed the idea that the Old Gods worshipped by the Tevinter Imperium were in fact the Forgotten Ones of the Elves (it's not uncommon for a culture to import the pantheon of another civilization, especially if perceived as more streamlined and/or superior). I don't know about Fen'harel being the Maker, since I really think that the Maker doesn't exist, but it could be an explanation. However, about the Golden City, I doubt that it was part of the lock - in Greek mythology, which clearly influenced the Elven pantheon, gods had a physical seat (Olympus), so I think it's likely that the Golden City was the seat of some Old Elven God, like Elgar'nan. Or it could also be the seat of something else entirely...

... However, David Gaider discarded many of these hypothesis, saying that the Old Gods and the Elven Gods were not the same, and that the Old Gods were almost alien entity, not created nor creators.

[Satyricon331]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Here are the secondhand quotes:
*snip*

He might be referring to this post.

[Emeraq]

*deleted* Child was born prior to stabbing of said Witch

Modifié par Emeraq, 11 avril 2011 - 01:59 .

[Emperor Iaius I]

Yes, that's the right user and it sounds right.

In that case, we have to pull back from any certainty there. Gaider's talking about the view of the ancient Tevinters and trying to explain why it's unlikely that the Old Gods are the same as the Elven gods or the Forgotten Ones, but he's basically doing it from the perspective of an in-universe scholar or something.

It makes sense, I guess. Giving us a certain answer limits storytelling potential and makes things less interesting, because the whole point of these intersecting belief systems is that they're at least partially based on faith.

[FlyingCow371]

I think there's a ton of potential stories in having this old god baby in a future game/expansion/thing. He might not know about his family/history, so there could be self discovery. He could struggle with difficulty controlling whatever abilities this background gives him, or maybe he's more susceptible to corruption/control from other forces, which he must constantly struggle against else he might inadvertently hurt those he loves.

Doesn't have to be a PC. I'd be content if he were a companion, with a decent quest line. For the people who didn't do the ritual, or for whom the old god baby couldn't exist, this companion isn't an option...continuity is maintained. For those who did the ritual, or convinced Allistair to do it (he sounded so shocked in my play through I couldn't force him to do it), then we get some nice closure on that story.

Or if not, somebody who's good at using the toolkit should make something cool.

[Torax]

Until they would openly reply to it. I think the OGB is just such a sticky subject that will anger people who expected more or didn't want it the first place. Why I figure it's best to do something else with the God Lore and pretend it didn't happen. That and what happens for a save with the Hero following her through the portal? That is the really tricky part.

Modifié par Torax, 11 avril 2011 - 04:27 .

[shumworld]

I'm going with the theory that the Eluvian is also a hyper chamber in where time moves at a different speed. So by the time Morrigan returns, the god child would at least be a decent age.

[Wee Joe Green]

David Gaider: "Could the Old Gods have been based on the elven gods? Possibly,"

That's all you need to know for it to be a potential outcome.

[Wee Joe Green]

David Gaider mentions that it perhaps wouldn't make sense for the Imperium to knowingly accept elven Gods as their own, due to the contempt they held for the elven people.  But this is not the same as contempt for the Gods and furthermore, it still doesn't negate the possibility that they could have been worshipping the same Gods unknowingly and with a different perspective - as many forms of religion appear to be under the surface.

It is eminently possible for beliefs to have crossed paths over time and mistaken for seperate deities.

[Wee Joe Green]

FlyingCow371 wrote...

I think there's a ton of potential stories in having this old god baby in a future game/expansion/thing. He might not know about his family/history, so there could be self discovery. He could struggle with difficulty controlling whatever abilities this background gives him, or maybe he's more susceptible to corruption/control from other forces, which he must constantly struggle against else he might inadvertently hurt those he loves.

Doesn't have to be a PC. I'd be content if he were a companion, with a decent quest line. For the people who didn't do the ritual, or for whom the old god baby couldn't exist, this companion isn't an option...continuity is maintained. For those who did the ritual, or convinced Allistair to do it (he sounded so shocked in my play through I couldn't force him to do it), then we get some nice closure on that story.

Or if not, somebody who's good at using the toolkit should make something cool.

Yes thank you, I think so too.  You paint a good picture of the potential narrative dilemmas that could be faced by such a character, whether that be playable, companion or involved NPC.

I too don't think it need be so difficult to cater for both sides desires and therefore require to banish the issue from any potential inclusion in the future storylines.  Just because some think the concept of the gods in their purest form should make for the basis of future storytelling - which I do too - doesn't mean they can't both be involved.  Let us not forget, this is an expansive and vast game with many different narrative threads.  Why should it be restricted in its narrative options.  Why not include several forms which will please not only fans, but any lovers of a good game?

There is always the possibility the choice could be made that: an option and alternative.  More than this, as has been stated before, it could be made an origin for the playable character of the future game, in much the same way as the first.  On particular playthroughs, where it fits, this background could be chosen and explored.

There are always options and try not to let a tricky continuancy problem hamper the great potential of the writer's and our own imaginations.

Modifié par Wee Joe Green, 11 avril 2011 - 12:23 .

[WhiteKnyght]

That wouldn't be possible if you imported from an Origins save where the ritual wasn't performed. Unless they do a workaround like that Morrigan was able to salvage the Archdemon's soul from Dead Warden/Alistair/Loghain's body.

But if they did go that way, it'd be interesting to see major events in the game change based on who fathered Morrigan's child.

The Warden's child would have to spend his life in the shadow of one of the world's greatest heroes.

Alistair's child would be the rightful heir to Ferelden unless he relinquished his rights, but even then, many would feel that the throne still belonged to the Therin bloodline.

Loghain's child would have to live his life being judged for his father's sins and resent him.

Also the kid would have to have potent magical powers regardless of the class you choose for him.

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 11 avril 2011 - 12:30 .

[Crimea River]

I hope not. I don't want to be restricted to a human character. D: Perhaps he'd be a companion, though?