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[The Angry One]

Wee Joe Green wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Feynriel is human, he is regarded as human. A note in the slaver's place where Thrask's daughter is describes him as human. His ears aren't very pointy at all.
Danarius has pointier ears than Feynriel. Is Danarius an elf? (Hint: He has a beard).

Someone's perception of another does not make them anything.  Fenriel could be elven as much as he could be human, that is merely perceptions and descriptions which you are quoting.  This does not make him a human.  Personally I thought he looked characteristically elven, not exageratedly so, but more so than any other human.

All his features are human, he just happens to have inherited some "prettier" facial features from his mother.
The writers have stated many times that elf + human = human and that's what's shown in game, so there's no basis for assuming otherwise.

[Wee Joe Green]

TobiTobsen wrote...

Wee Joe Green wrote...

I'm sorry but it's all just too speculative and there are too many variables for any of us to assert anything as fact.

Regarding what? You mean the race of the baby? The combinations i posted above are from the lore and are backed up by the devs. They are fact. I don't need to speculate about them. Feynriel is no elf, neither will the OGB from an elven warden and Morrigan be one

Wee Joe Green wrote...

SirLogical wrote...

For Sure this happens at the end of origins, but at the end of witch hunt, she mentions a child, even if you told her to stuff herself in origins.

This is what I thought too. That's why I thought there was always some way in which the child would be incorporated into the story. But then I didn't write the game so I don't know.

I don't know if you missed the link from Torax on the first page:



In that video Morrigan has no kid, because nobody slept with her and the ritual was denied. Just to clarify the confusion about the whole "Witch Hunt says there is always a kid" stuff.

She says it doesn't matter what I want and we don't know her intentions.  How do we know she's not found some way to achieve her end goals?  That would be for the writers to decide in the future.

[TobiTobsen]

The Angry One wrote...

Wee Joe Green wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Feynriel is human, he is regarded as human. A note in the slaver's place where Thrask's daughter is describes him as human. His ears aren't very pointy at all.
Danarius has pointier ears than Feynriel. Is Danarius an elf? (Hint: He has a beard).

Someone's perception of another does not make them anything.  Fenriel could be elven as much as he could be human, that is merely perceptions and descriptions which you are quoting.  This does not make him a human.  Personally I thought he looked characteristically elven, not exageratedly so, but more so than any other human.

All his features are human, he just happens to have inherited some "prettier" facial features from his mother.
The writers have stated many times that elf + human = human and that's what's shown in game, so there's no basis for assuming otherwise.

Exactly. I mean... do you guys remember the chubby guy in Denerim that gave you the thief quests? That guy was an "Half-Elf" too.

[Maria Caliban]

Wee Joe Green wrote...

TheTouch wrote...

I hope not - I don't think I ever performed the 'ritual' for any of my Wardens, so having Morrigan's demon-child be the main character would be a serious disconnect for my playthroughs.

But Morrigan still became pregnant regardless of whether you approved and/or conceived with her.

Morrigan only becomes pregnant if the PC sleeps with her or she performs the dark ritual with Alistair, Loghain, or the PC.

[The Spirit of Dance]

i seriously hope they don't. at best i could see it being an optional boss, minor character whom exists as part of the main plot but does not do anything to change the entire plot (maybe gives you an extra option at some point) or have a connection to a side-quest.

[Wee Joe Green]

Torax wrote...

Wee Joe Green wrote...

I'm sorry but it's all just too speculative and there are too many variables for any of us to assert anything as fact.

Yet you insist on trying to state the birth of a baby from Origins as fact except that in the case of even trying to compare Leliana's return. Her death required accepting Kolgrim's offer with her in the party. Meanwhile you want a Old God Baby as your Teenage Companion cause of just barely a few final game decisions out of all the possible solutions. So for example all the Wardens that sacrificed themselves or had Loghain do the sacrifice with Alistair as king. Then they have no baby. Yet you want to insert the Baby as basically Cannon aka Fact for all players. That is not the case.

If they want to have the Maker saving Leliana from just the "I cut off her head!" cry babies? Fine. But don't throw the OGB as a screw you to all the ones who didn't want to romance or coddle to Morrigan.

Torax I'm not trying to assert anything as fact about the child and i'm not trying to run amock of people's end games.  I never suggested anything like i'm right and you're wrong btw?  I was just trying to think of and put to you, ways in which a child could be a possibility, not canon.  I was just trying to suggest something that had occured to me which I thought was interesting and I wondered if others would think so too.  I tried to think of ways to work around the problems you suggested but nothing more than this.  As I've stated several times, it's for the developers and writers to decide and I was simply suggesting there could be options.

But it's me against the world it seems...

[TobiTobsen]

Wee Joe Green wrote...

She says it doesn't matter what I want and we don't know her intentions.  How do we know she's not found some way to achieve her end goals?  That would be for the writers to decide in the future.

Sure thing. 
If the writers decide that the OGB is somehow canon, even for people who didn't go along with her ritual, than I'll accept that.
But at the moment it's fact that there is no kid if nobody slept with her, otherwise she mentiones the kid in Witch Hunt.

Wee Joe Green wrote...

But it's me against the world it seems...

Thats mostly the case if people bring the OGB up. Don't take it personal

Modifié par TobiTobsen, 10 avril 2011 - 04:50 .

[Wee Joe Green]

Ok.  Let me put it to you this way then.

For those of you who are opposed to the notion of the child being used in any of these ways, how would you have the developers incorporate it into the story satisfactorily for those of us who did choose to have Morrigan conceive a child with the soul of the Archdemon?  For those of us who did choose this - on any number of playthroughs - which I can safely presume is ALOT, how can we have a satisfactory conclusion or explanation as to those events?  Because this was no meagre matter.  For me at least, this was the concept I was most intrigued and involved in from Origins and eager to find out what happened.  Effectively, this was the determining reason for many wanting to know what happened to Morrigan and which led to her dlc being released.

I understand there are problems for those of you who didn't allow Morrigan to have the child and who do not need to see a result from those choices, but this was a major implication and story facet for those of us who did and to simply say it should be ignored would be entirely inadequate and would ruin the effective storytelling of a critical decision from our Origins game.

[The Angry One]

The child being implemented in a satisfactory way does not follow that he'll be a companion, main character or major antagonist.

[Torax]

Wee Joe Green wrote...

Ok.  Let me put it to you this way then.

For those of you who are opposed to the notion of the child being used in any of these ways, how would you have the developers incorporate it into the story satisfactorily for those of us who did choose to have Morrigan conceive a child with the soul of the Archdemon?  For those of us who did choose this - on any number of playthroughs - which I can safely presume is ALOT, how can we have a satisfactory conclusion or explanation as to those events?  Because this was no meagre matter.  For me at least, this was the concept I was most intrigued and involved in from Origins and eager to find out what happened.  Effectively, this was the determining reason for many wanting to know what happened to Morrigan and which led to her dlc being released.

I understand there are problems for those of you who didn't allow Morrigan to have the child and who do not need to see a result from those choices, but this was a major implication and story facet for those of us who did and to simply say it should be ignored would be entirely inadequate and would ruin the effective storytelling of a critical decision from our Origins game.

I almost think it's one of those things that seemed really awesome in development but then hit a problem when they had also made it optional to even romance her. On top of that cause of approval type setups if a female hero was low enough on approval/cohersion they couldn't even convince him to sleep with her? They wouldn't be able to complete the ritual anyway. So all these sort of options to the end game. Makes it hard to base any of it as Cannon. But most importantly the hardest is OGB. It's quite insulting to have your character that you had make the sacrifice turn out to be the father of a baby with a witch that they never slept with...

Modifié par Torax, 10 avril 2011 - 05:01 .

[The Spirit of Dance]

a series of side-quests based around the OGB would be satisfactory

[Wee Joe Green]

The Angry One wrote...

The child being implemented in a satisfactory way does not follow that he'll be a companion, main character or major antagonist.

No, well this is how it seems and to be fair, I never entirely expected a wild prediction like this would actually end up becoming true.  It was just a fun suggestion.

[TobiTobsen]

Wee Joe Green wrote...

Ok.  Let me put it to you this way then.

For those of you who are opposed to the notion of the child being used in any of these ways, how would you have the developers incorporate it into the story satisfactorily for those of us who did choose to have Morrigan conceive a child with the soul of the Archdemon?  For those of us who did choose this - on any number of playthroughs - which I can safely presume is ALOT, how can we have a satisfactory conclusion or explanation as to those events?  Because this was no meagre matter.  For me at least, this was the concept I was most intrigued and involved in from Origins and eager to find out what happened.  Effectively, this was the determining reason for many wanting to know what happened to Morrigan and which led to her dlc being released.

I understand there are problems for those of you who didn't allow Morrigan to have the child and who do not need to see a result from those choices, but this was a major implication and story facet for those of us who did and to simply say it should be ignored would be entirely inadequate and would ruin the effective storytelling of a critical decision from our Origins game.

As I'm an OGB father too I'm on your side that I would like to see "my" son in a future Dragon Age installment.
But like you said, that's not easy to accomplish. Na... it would be easy to accomplish, but it would be hard to make it satisfying. Should they want to stay with the approach that everbody makes his/her own canon than we won't get more than a short cameo if you ask me.
If they really want to flesh the whole story about Morrigan, the OGB, the Eluvian and possibly our Warden, out, than they'll have to make it canon, just like Leliana. Otherwise they would have to deny a big chunk of story to some players and that would just lead to people breathing fire and brimstone all over the place

Modifié par TobiTobsen, 10 avril 2011 - 05:06 .

[Torax]

Expect the average companion ranges of say 20-Mid 30's with at times the older gray haired Father/Mother figure in the mix.

A Teenage demi-god as your side kick? Not likely.

[The Angry One]

In my canon run, Alistair is the OGB father and if somehow the planets align and you are playing as the Warden again encountering him would make some great awkward moments.. (glare-eyes contest with Morrigan, go!).
But you can't just stomp all over the people who didn't and sacrificed themselves, Alistair or Loghain.

[Wee Joe Green]

supremebloodwolf wrote...

a series of side-quests based around the OGB would be satisfactory

I definitely can't see side-quests satisfying any of us who chose this route.  This was a main consideration of the game and one of the pivotal moments of the end-game (which effectively decides the course of the future games).  To have it tallied up over side quests would undermine its importance and clearly none of the events which we were led to believe were important from Origins would have any impact on the narrative if they were able to be satisfactorily answered in a 'side-quest'.

Remember, Morrigan's  - and more importantly her mother's, who we know is integral to the game on some level - intention for joining the group and the Warden, was so that she could perform the ritual and carry the child.  She explicitly stated this as her true intentions for joining the quest, and romance which may have formed throughout the process was clearly not her original intention and subservient to her desire to have a child in this manner.  Think of her parting words in that video on the first page.

It has to have some important meaning to the story more so than any side quest can explain away.

[Torax]

Wee Joe Green wrote...

supremebloodwolf wrote...

a series of side-quests based around the OGB would be satisfactory

I definitely can't see side-quests satisfying any of us who chose this route.  This was a main consideration of the game and one of the pivotal moments of the end-game (which effectively decides the course of the future games).  To have it tallied up over side quests would undermine its importance and clearly none of the events which we were led to believe were important from Origins would have any impact on the narrative if they were able to be satisfactorily answered in a 'side-quest'.

Remember, Morrigan's  - and more importantly her mother's, who we know is integral to the game on some level - intention for joining the group and the Warden, was so that she could perform the ritual and carry the child.  She explicitly stated this as her true intentions for joining the quest, and romance which may have formed throughout the process was clearly not her original intention and subservient to her desire to have a child in this manner.  Think of her parting words in that video on the first page.

It has to have some important meaning to the story more so than any side quest can explain away.

Not really. it like a last minute thing thrown on you on the way out the door to denerim. That last, "Well I don't have to kill myself I guess. It's a good thing that Morrigan doesn't care I'm sleeping with Zevran..."

[LyndseyCousland]

I don't know why people want to speculate so hard about what the next game will entail... doesn't it just make you feel impatient? xD

I wouldn't want to play Morrigan's child in a game mainly because I would prefer to observe the actions of this character rather than choose what to do for him. He has the potential to have a very interesting story line which I would prefer to watch unfold.

[Wee Joe Green]

Torax wrote...

I almost think it's one of those things that seemed really awesome in development but then hit a problem when they had also made it optional to even romance her. On top of that cause of approval type setups if a female hero was low enough on approval/cohersion they couldn't even convince him to sleep with her? They wouldn't be able to complete the ritual anyway. So all these sort of options to the end game. Makes it hard to base any of it as Cannon. But most importantly the hardest is OGB. It's quite insulting to have your character that you had make the sacrifice turn out to be the father of a baby with a witch that they never slept with...

Oh and Torax I understand what you're saying and I too would be annoyed with this outcome had it been my choice.  But what would have stopped Morrigan from sleeping with Alexander or another outwith your knowledge and control?  Why would the character who chose not to sleep with her, not have been able to be excluded from that decision?  It would then not require to be the baby of the Warden who gave his life.

Before you say anything about you dieing had that been the case, again, I am just speculating as to why this could not be feasible.  Perhaps the Warden could have died as intended and as was expected, whilst the soul of the archdemon was still transferred due to the ritual into the body of the willing host?

It's just random mad speculation but my point is simply that perhaps it need to be so rigid and narrowly construed.  Anything may have transpired outwith your knowledge and could therefore be possible.

This would just be an example of what would have to be explained for the imports involving a dead Warden who chose not to perform the ritual.  Those who did of course, would have a different explanation in game. 

[TobiTobsen]

The Angry One wrote...

But you can't just stomp all over the people who didn't and sacrificed themselves, Alistair or Loghain.

Exactly. Just like they cannot ignore the people who fathered the child.

I think Bioware maneuvered themself into a corner with that plot point. It will be pretty interesting how they solve that problem.

Modifié par TobiTobsen, 10 avril 2011 - 05:21 .

[The Angry One]

We don't know Flemeth's plan. For all we know the OGB is completely incidental.

[Wee Joe Green]

TobiTobsen wrote...

As I'm an OGB father too I'm on your side that I would like to see "my" son in a future Dragon Age installment.
But like you said, that's not easy to accomplish. Na... it would be easy to accomplish, but it would be hard to make it satisfying. Should they want to stay with the approach that everbody makes his/her own canon than we won't get more than a short cameo if you ask me.
If they really want to flesh the whole story about Morrigan, the OGB, the Eluvian and possibly our Warden, out, than they'll have to make it canon, just like Leliana. Otherwise they would have to deny a big chunk of story to some players and that would just lead to people breathing fire and brimstone all over the place

Haha considering the mayhem that's been caused by the bugs, I can only imagine the uproar should this concept never be explained.  The server would crash daily

[Torax]

If the Ritual still required her to sleep with a fresher gray warden. Then who would have slept with her? Alistair? He'd have told her F%*$ YOU! If he was Hardened he would yell it even louder. Loghain would probably slap her and shove her out the door. If she persisted he'd probably stab her. Why it doesn't make sense to force it on others. Where would she get it unless the player allows?

Also as I stated it's not some big thing to mull over the entire game. You are told just before it that someone has to die. You or Alistair/Loghain depending on the choices you made at the Landsmeet. So then you weigh you or the companion. Go to room and Morrigan is like "This doesn't have to be so." She doesn't care if you romanced at all. She just wants to have sex for the baby. It's a silly ploy to allow the player to not die really. But not enough to make a OGB Cannon for all that made the sacrifice or had Alistair or Loghain go down in History as the ones to end the Blight.

[Wee Joe Green]

Torax wrote...

Expect the average companion ranges of say 20-Mid 30's with at times the older gray haired Father/Mother figure in the mix.

A Teenage demi-god as your side kick? Not likely.

Not referring to the demi-god part, why could they not have a teenage companion in the mix?  Why should they so rigidly stick to what has been the trend so far.  There would be nothing inherently wrong with a teenage companion, especially one who was so strong.  More than anything it's a little bit of originality and would open avenues for unique dialogue and personal demons more so than the norm.

I can imagine Varric adopting the Uncle approach over such a one.  Teaching him/her all the wrong things to do - how to cheat and gamble etc.  This is a hypothitical example, but i'm sure you can imagine the kinds of interaction i'm meaning.

[TobiTobsen]

Wee Joe Green wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...

As I'm an OGB father too I'm on your side that I would like to see "my" son in a future Dragon Age installment.
But like you said, that's not easy to accomplish. Na... it would be easy to accomplish, but it would be hard to make it satisfying. Should they want to stay with the approach that everbody makes his/her own canon than we won't get more than a short cameo if you ask me.
If they really want to flesh the whole story about Morrigan, the OGB, the Eluvian and possibly our Warden, out, than they'll have to make it canon, just like Leliana. Otherwise they would have to deny a big chunk of story to some players and that would just lead to people breathing fire and brimstone all over the place

Haha considering the mayhem that's been caused by the bugs, I can only imagine the uproar should this concept never be explained.  The server would crash daily

Just look at all the "HOW DARE THEY?!" threads regarding Leliana... and her death was way more unlikely than the existence of the OGB.