293 réponses à ce sujet

[Wee Joe Green]

TJPags wrote...

Well, but here's the thing.  You're basically saying they should make content for something that was completely optional - that many people may not have.  This is different than, say, Zevran showing up for 5 minutes in DA2 if you let him live, or Loghain having a brief cameo in DAA if you let him live.   You're asking for a full on storyline, more extensive than the Nathaniel quest (which is also optional), which some people will never get.  That's a lot of work you're asking for.

I don't think they should be putting their resources into that.

Now, do I get that people who went this route want some closure?  Of course I do.  I fully understand that WH provided no real closure to this storyline.  But it was an optional story - to do otherwise, well, have you seen the uproar about Leliana being retconned (and please, let's not argue if its an actual retcon or not - its been done to death - I'm using the term here as shorthand) alive?  Can you imagine the outrage that would occur if they decided that, whether you were male or female, romanced her or not, did the DR or not, the OGB exists?

Maybe it was a poor decision to allow that option on Bioware's part.  Maybe people have simply latched onto the child when they never meant that to be the focus, which would make it the fault of the players.  Maybe it was an idea they simply decided not to follow.  I'm not sure which it is, but given that its optional, and given that dev comments have indicated that they currently have no intention of making it canon, I think hoping for it is wishful thinking.

"Here's the thing" TJPags, I'm not "asking" for anything!  I made a suggestion that it could be fun and, through applying creativity, an possibility that the child could be the character of DA3.  I never "asked" Bioware to do this for me. (Scoffles).  If it was something that was seen as a good idea which they liked and assuming it was a direction they actually intended to follow, then it could be done.  When someone comes up for an idea for a game, they suggest it to the writers, they do not plead that it becomes so.

This is not what I was doing.  Simply coming up with a harmless suggestion that sparked debate.  

[Torax]

RavenB wrote...

It may also be worth considering that other Old Gods still exist and Morrigan (and/or Flemeth) have had ten years to root one up if they were really set on finding one for whatever it is that they're planning. It's not impossible that they could acquire a different soul through other methods, if unlikely.

The Grey Wardens know where the remaining 2 are located supposedly. It's locked up by the First Warden I'm sure but it's something they pay close attention to. Now if Flemeth was the Trickster (Though some say the Maker = the Trickster), then Flemeth knows where the old gods aren possibly where the Pantheon are. The question would be is the World ready for them. Are they all benevolent or are even some of them very rash and violent. Enough that they had to be locked away above along with the Forgotten Ones. What would happen if they returned?

[mesmerizedish]

TJPags is the OGB.

[TJPags]

SirLogical wrote...

TJPags wrote...

SirLogical wrote...

To TJPags:

For sure we're asking for more than a 5 minute cameo, but that's because though an amazing character, the extent of Zevran's effect on the world is eliminating the crows; whereas the OGB has a huge potential to have a massive impact on the story.

To be honest, it would be nice to get some form of dev comment saying 'yes, at some point on the DA franchise, we plan on revisiting the Morrigan storyline' or 'no, the Morrigan storyline ins't a priority'. Still nice and ambiguous, just let us know whether or not to give up on Morrigan or not.

The Morrigan storyline =/= the OGB storyline.

No, but since those most interested in Morrigan will have performed the Dark Ritual, the kind of audience that future Morrigan content will be aimed at will see the OGB and Morrigan as intrinsically linked. If an expansion/DA:X is about Morrigan, but doesn't mention the OGB, I think the fallout would be worse than DA:2

You're probably right about the connection, but thats in the players minds, not (IMO) the intention of the devs.

And regarding fallout, what do you think the fallout will be from people that never had the OGB in the their games, now being forced to have it in future games?  Again, worse than DA2.  Take a look at some of the fallout from the DAA "import a dead warden" scenario and the "Leliana is always alive" situation.  Then multiply by, oh, about 1000.

[Fallstar]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

TJPags is the OGB.

Think of the irony...

[TJPags]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

TJPags is the OGB.

Shhhhh!!

Varric was supposed to dispel those rumors!!!!! 

Damn elaborating dwarf . . . .

[TobiTobsen]

TJPags wrote...

And regarding fallout, what do you think the fallout will be from people that never had the OGB in the their games, now being forced to have it in future games?  Again, worse than DA2.  Take a look at some of the fallout from the DAA "import a dead warden" scenario and the "Leliana is always alive" situation.  Then multiply by, oh, about 1000.

Like I said earlier:

TobiTobsen wrote...

Exactly. Just like they cannot ignore the people who fathered the child.

I think Bioware maneuvered themself into a corner with that plot point. It will be pretty interesting how they solve that problem.

[Fallstar]

TJPags wrote...

SirLogical wrote...

TJPags wrote...

SirLogical wrote...

To TJPags:

For sure we're asking for more than a 5 minute cameo, but that's because though an amazing character, the extent of Zevran's effect on the world is eliminating the crows; whereas the OGB has a huge potential to have a massive impact on the story.

To be honest, it would be nice to get some form of dev comment saying 'yes, at some point on the DA franchise, we plan on revisiting the Morrigan storyline' or 'no, the Morrigan storyline ins't a priority'. Still nice and ambiguous, just let us know whether or not to give up on Morrigan or not.

The Morrigan storyline =/= the OGB storyline.

No, but since those most interested in Morrigan will have performed the Dark Ritual, the kind of audience that future Morrigan content will be aimed at will see the OGB and Morrigan as intrinsically linked. If an expansion/DA:X is about Morrigan, but doesn't mention the OGB, I think the fallout would be worse than DA:2

You're probably right about the connection, but thats in the players minds, not (IMO) the intention of the devs.

And regarding fallout, what do you think the fallout will be from people that never had the OGB in the their games, now being forced to have it in future games?  Again, worse than DA2.  Take a look at some of the fallout from the DAA "import a dead warden" scenario and the "Leliana is always alive" situation.  Then multiply by, oh, about 1000.

And this is the main reason that I don't think that Bioware would release an OGB as a main game; personally I'm hoping for an expansion. Don't get me wrong, I want (and I mean really want) DA:3/4/whatever to be about Morrigan and the OGB. But me wanting it =/= it happening. But, I think it is perfectly possible for a fan-conscientious Bioware to do a dual release expansion say? One on Morrigan, one on I don't know, Hawke say?
But that does seem somewhat unlikely too. Blast.

Edit: Oh yeah! I forgot that Bioware should cater to both those of us who did the DR and those who didn't. As the above poster says, seems they have manouevred themselves into a corner.

Modifié par SirLogical, 10 avril 2011 - 07:48 .

[RavenB]

Torax wrote...

RavenB wrote...

It may also be worth considering that other Old Gods still exist and Morrigan (and/or Flemeth) have had ten years to root one up if they were really set on finding one for whatever it is that they're planning. It's not impossible that they could acquire a different soul through other methods, if unlikely.

The Grey Wardens know where the remaining 2 are located supposedly. It's locked up by the First Warden I'm sure but it's something they pay close attention to. Now if Flemeth was the Trickster (Though some say the Maker = the Trickster), then Flemeth knows where the old gods aren possibly where the Pantheon are. The question would be is the World ready for them. Are they all benevolent or are even some of them very rash and violent. Enough that they had to be locked away above along with the Forgotten Ones. What would happen if they returned?

Yeah, I knew the grey wardens did know. It seems like they must not have them too under control, though, if the information already got leaked once and The Architect was able to get to one? If they had managed to get one, there's no real way we'd know so far. But it is admittedly a bit of a stretch, just something to consider.

I'd also considered that Maker/Trickster idea, although I think probably either Flemeth is the Trickster or the Maker is. I don't really think it's both. Which is really just my opinion and I have nothing to back it with. XD

[jsteinhauer]

RavenB wrote...

It may also be worth considering that other Old Gods still exist and Morrigan (and/or Flemeth) have had ten years to root one up if they were really set on finding one for whatever it is that they're planning. It's not impossible that they could acquire a different soul through other methods, if unlikely.

While Old Gods remain, an archdemon needs to be killed to obtain the soul.  The Wardens would know, if there was an archdemon about.



As for what proportion of the fan base performed the ritual or not, it seems obvious.  Real fans would have played the game each way and should be most interested in seeing future installments that remain faithful to all of their previously chosen story options, without cheesing one of them up.

[Torax]

jsteinhauer wrote...

RavenB wrote...

It may also be worth considering that other Old Gods still exist and Morrigan (and/or Flemeth) have had ten years to root one up if they were really set on finding one for whatever it is that they're planning. It's not impossible that they could acquire a different soul through other methods, if unlikely.

While Old Gods remain, an archdemon needs to be killed to obtain the soul.  The Wardens would know, if there was an archdemon about.



As for what proportion of the fan base performed the ritual or not, it seems obvious.  Real fans would have played the game each way and should be most interested in seeing future installments that remain faithful to all of their previously chosen story options, without cheesing one of them up.

I get the feeling that Ogren, Wynne, JAnders and even Leliana being back would be nothing compared to screwing over entire Warden death cenarios. The ones were about Sacrificing something to save all of Thedas.

[RavenB]

jsteinhauer wrote...

RavenB wrote...

It may also be worth considering that other Old Gods still exist and Morrigan (and/or Flemeth) have had ten years to root one up if they were really set on finding one for whatever it is that they're planning. It's not impossible that they could acquire a different soul through other methods, if unlikely.

While Old Gods remain, an archdemon needs to be killed to obtain the soul.  The Wardens would know, if there was an archdemon about.



As for what proportion of the fan base performed the ritual or not, it seems obvious.  Real fans would have played the game each way and should be most interested in seeing future installments that remain faithful to all of their previously chosen story options, without cheesing one of them up.

The ritual that Morrigan was performing was aimed specifically at an archdemon to clean the taint from it, but there's no real evidence if they do or don't have a method of rebooting the Old Gods otherwise. And even if the wardens DID know, WE wouldn't know.

[TJPags]

TobiTobsen wrote...

TJPags wrote...

And regarding fallout, what do you think the fallout will be from people that never had the OGB in the their games, now being forced to have it in future games?  Again, worse than DA2.  Take a look at some of the fallout from the DAA "import a dead warden" scenario and the "Leliana is always alive" situation.  Then multiply by, oh, about 1000.

Like I said earlier:

TobiTobsen wrote...

Exactly. Just like they cannot ignore the people who fathered the child.

I think Bioware maneuvered themself into a corner with that plot point. It will be pretty interesting how they solve that problem.

Fair enough (didn't see your previous post, sorry, wasn't ignoring it.

But as I said earlier, the Morrigan storyline =/= the OGB storyline.  I'm not so sure that Bioware really intended the OGB to be the story - more the fact that Morrigan has a way to survive the AD.  I could easily be wrong here, of course.

But its conceivable that they never intended the OGB to be a big deal, and to the extent that it is, it may be a fan creation.  Speaking for my games, I always do the DR, but not because I always care about Morrigan, more because I simply see no reason to die if its not necessary.  And I could care less about the baby that results.

I doubt I'm the only one who feels that way.

[Wee Joe Green]

Torax wrote...

RavenB wrote...

It may also be worth considering that other Old Gods still exist and Morrigan (and/or Flemeth) have had ten years to root one up if they were really set on finding one for whatever it is that they're planning. It's not impossible that they could acquire a different soul through other methods, if unlikely.

The Grey Wardens know where the remaining 2 are located supposedly. It's locked up by the First Warden I'm sure but it's something they pay close attention to. Now if Flemeth was the Trickster (Though some say the Maker = the Trickster), then Flemeth knows where the old gods aren possibly where the Pantheon are. The question would be is the World ready for them. Are they all benevolent or are even some of them very rash and violent. Enough that they had to be locked away above along with the Forgotten Ones. What would happen if they returned?

Do both necessarily have to exist?  It is, when viewed in its most rudimentary form, belief.  We do not know that the Pantheon say for example exist.  We have various forms of religion in our world yet I think it safe to say the majority of people only believe in a certain group or one and not all.  The same may transfer to the world of Ferelden. (I get confused sometime as to which is the world and which is the country/provence)

I'm not sure this contributes much to the discussion but it is perhaps something we shouldn't overlook.  There may not be any trickster other than that which is lore and believed.

[RavenB]

A living person walking around out there somewhere with the soul of a god doesn't seem like something that just "goes away" to me, personally. It seems odd to me that they'd make Witch Hunt as is if that were so. A good portion of the conversation with her for MY character (most of it, in fact) was about "our" child. During which she talked about the child's destiny and made it seem rather important before he went with her through the mirror. That seems extremely unnatural to me in the story line if it's just never mentioned again. If it were just the Origins end, then I could almost swallow that, but why compound it with Witch Hunt? Why wouldn't they just play it down if they were going to axe the storyline.

OGB plot abortion just doesn't seem likely to me in light of Witch Hunt. But I won't state my opinion as fact, definitely. It does seem like they're in an odd position here to work out in a way that pleases everyone. I'm almost doubtful that's going to happen at all.

[Wee Joe Green]

TobiTobsen wrote...

TJPags wrote...

And regarding fallout, what do you think the fallout will be from people that never had the OGB in the their games, now being forced to have it in future games?  Again, worse than DA2.  Take a look at some of the fallout from the DAA "import a dead warden" scenario and the "Leliana is always alive" situation.  Then multiply by, oh, about 1000.

Like I said earlier:

TobiTobsen wrote...

Exactly. Just like they cannot ignore the people who fathered the child.

I think Bioware maneuvered themself into a corner with that plot point. It will be pretty interesting how they solve that problem.

One things for certain.  They definitely cannot let us decide.  If they did the issue would be in limbo for years, either that or we'd have "Dragon Age 3: Version 1" and "Dragon Age 3: Version 2". 
 
But which would be version 1...

[RavenB]

Wee Joe Green wrote...

Torax wrote...

RavenB wrote...

It may also be worth considering that other Old Gods still exist and Morrigan (and/or Flemeth) have had ten years to root one up if they were really set on finding one for whatever it is that they're planning. It's not impossible that they could acquire a different soul through other methods, if unlikely.

The Grey Wardens know where the remaining 2 are located supposedly. It's locked up by the First Warden I'm sure but it's something they pay close attention to. Now if Flemeth was the Trickster (Though some say the Maker = the Trickster), then Flemeth knows where the old gods aren possibly where the Pantheon are. The question would be is the World ready for them. Are they all benevolent or are even some of them very rash and violent. Enough that they had to be locked away above along with the Forgotten Ones. What would happen if they returned?

Do both necessarily have to exist?  It is, when viewed in its most rudimentary form, belief.  We do not know that the Pantheon say for example exist.  We have various forms of religion in our world yet I think it safe to say the majority of people only believe in a certain group or one and not all.  The same may transfer to the world of Ferelden. (I get confused sometime as to which is the world and which is the country/provence)

I'm not sure this contributes much to the discussion but it is perhaps something we shouldn't overlook.  There may not be any trickster other than that which is lore and believed.

The Old Gods, I think, we're pretty sure on. What exactly they ARE, maybe not sure on, but that they EXIST is a pretty sure bet. Unless you want to replay Origins and just try telling the Archdemon he's not real at the end? XD

But I think the elven gods/the maker/etc is still pretty unproven, as far as I know. It's possible one religion is true and one is not, or that they're talking about the same gods with different stories. When you consider, the story of the maker locking up the old gods and the story of the elven gods being sealed away has an uncomfortably close connection.

[TobiTobsen]

Wee Joe Green wrote...

One things for certain.  They definitely cannot let us decide.  If they did the issue would be in limbo for years, either that or we'd have "Dragon Age 3: Version 1" and "Dragon Age 3: Version 2". 
 
But which would be version 1...

There can be no version 1 and version 2. Anders would resurrect himself, blow up the gameshop and scream stuff like "THERE CAN BE NO COMPROMISE!"

[Wee Joe Green]

SirLogical wrote...

And this is the main reason that I don't think that Bioware would release an OGB as a main game; personally I'm hoping for an expansion. Don't get me wrong, I want (and I mean really want) DA:3/4/whatever to be about Morrigan and the OGB. But me wanting it =/= it happening. But, I think it is perfectly possible for a fan-conscientious Bioware to do a dual release expansion say? One on Morrigan, one on I don't know, Hawke say?
But that does seem somewhat unlikely too. Blast.

Edit: Oh yeah! I forgot that Bioware should cater to both those of us who did the DR and those who didn't. As the above poster says, seems they have manouevred themselves into a corner.

"Somewhat unlikely", i'm thinking Leliana will behead the OGB whilst the Warden returns from the eluvian a mute before we see 2 versions released somewhat akin to a pokemon title.
 If it happens I called it!!

[Torax]

RavenB wrote...

A living person walking around out there somewhere with the soul of a god doesn't seem like something that just "goes away" to me, personally. It seems odd to me that they'd make Witch Hunt as is if that were so. A good portion of the conversation with her for MY character (most of it, in fact) was about "our" child. During which she talked about the child's destiny and made it seem rather important before he went with her through the mirror. That seems extremely unnatural to me in the story line if it's just never mentioned again. If it were just the Origins end, then I could almost swallow that, but why compound it with Witch Hunt? Why wouldn't they just play it down if they were going to axe the storyline.

OGB plot abortion just doesn't seem likely to me in light of Witch Hunt. But I won't state my opinion as fact, definitely. It does seem like they're in an odd position here to work out in a way that pleases everyone. I'm almost doubtful that's going to happen at all.

I still lean that the thing that truly stops the OGB from being part of the story in any crucial way is that the Hero could be with said child. Since the old heroes had too many variants and did not talk. And it's exclusive to only males to go through the Mirror? I don't really see them ever really touching that again along with the baby. Like if they paint anything it would maybe be a DLC with a 20 foot pole.

[MyKingdomCold]

Unless they change it, Morrigan refers to the child as "he" so it would always be male. And probably human or some half-human.

[Wee Joe Green]

RavenB wrote...

Wee Joe Green wrote...

Do both necessarily have to exist?  It is, when viewed in its most rudimentary form, belief.  We do not know that the Pantheon say for example exist.  We have various forms of religion in our world yet I think it safe to say the majority of people only believe in a certain group or one and not all.  The same may transfer to the world of Ferelden. (I get confused sometime as to which is the world and which is the country/provence)

I'm not sure this contributes much to the discussion but it is perhaps something we shouldn't overlook.  There may not be any trickster other than that which is lore and believed.

The Old Gods, I think, we're pretty sure on. What exactly they ARE, maybe not sure on, but that they EXIST is a pretty sure bet. Unless you want to replay Origins and just try telling the Archdemon he's not real at the end? XD

But I think the elven gods/the maker/etc is still pretty unproven, as far as I know. It's possible one religion is true and one is not, or that they're talking about the same gods with different stories. When you consider, the story of the maker locking up the old gods and the story of the elven gods being sealed away has an uncomfortably close connection.

This is precisely what I was talking about and yes I think this is, at the very least, feasible.  Of course I recognise that the Old Gods do exist as Archdemons, however their permutations may have been exaggerated somewhat as with all history and religious lore.

Modifié par Wee Joe Green, 10 avril 2011 - 08:27 .

[jsteinhauer]

The corner that Bioware has backed itself into is not simply whether to expound upon the OGB issue. A very vocal part of the audience has become extremely emotionally attached to the concept and probably has preconceived notions about where that part of the story should go. I suspect that no matter what they do with that branch of Dragon Age, many of those who are most interested in it will be loudly disappointed in the outcome.

I doubt at the outset that they were interested in pursuing DA2 add-on content about a character who did not even appear in the game or a sequel game that focuses intently on a character and events from two games ago.

[RavenB]

Torax wrote...

RavenB wrote...

A living person walking around out there somewhere with the soul of a god doesn't seem like something that just "goes away" to me, personally. It seems odd to me that they'd make Witch Hunt as is if that were so. A good portion of the conversation with her for MY character (most of it, in fact) was about "our" child. During which she talked about the child's destiny and made it seem rather important before he went with her through the mirror. That seems extremely unnatural to me in the story line if it's just never mentioned again. If it were just the Origins end, then I could almost swallow that, but why compound it with Witch Hunt? Why wouldn't they just play it down if they were going to axe the storyline.

OGB plot abortion just doesn't seem likely to me in light of Witch Hunt. But I won't state my opinion as fact, definitely. It does seem like they're in an odd position here to work out in a way that pleases everyone. I'm almost doubtful that's going to happen at all.

I still lean that the thing that truly stops the OGB from being part of the story in any crucial way is that the Hero could be with said child. Since the old heroes had too many variants and did not talk. And it's exclusive to only males to go through the Mirror? I don't really see them ever really touching that again along with the baby. Like if they paint anything it would maybe be a DLC with a 20 foot pole.

Well, the Warden won't live forever. I'm not saying they have to pick up the OGB for DA 3 specifically, but in the OGB's mid-late 20's the warden will be getting close to succumbing to the taint as a warden, if he doesn't die one of countless other ways. This is also likely when they'd be coming to full power and confidence in stepping out in the open. It's pretty easy to write out someone who feasibly faces mortal danger on a daily basis AND who is on a shortened lifespan to begin with.