45 réponses à ce sujet

[Stardusk78]

I have played this class a lot and it is one of my favourites but with shotgun upgrades and minus can't get a lock bug, it often seems OP; sure you can die if you slip up a but every class can too. I am not suggesting nerfing the Vanguard for ME3 but you have to agree it is OP.

[Kronner]

I disagree.
Sentinel is a walking and tougher version of the Vanguard, with some extra powers on top. And it's more forgiving.

Soldier has bullet-time on a 3s cooldown and carries all the good weapons..that speaks for itself.

Infiltrator is extremely versatile, Cloak has multiple uses, whereas Charge does only one thing.

Adept and Engineer are kings of CC.

Hard to compare classes head to head, but I do not think that Charge (Vanguard) is overpowered.

It's no Mattock, that's for sure

Modifié par Kronner, 10 avril 2011 - 12:46 .

[Sparrow44]

Vanguard has an underwhelming set of powers, Charge doesn't benefit from the biotic cooldown upgrade, the passive talent doesn't add a unique feature (Infiltrator has slow-mo through scope, and Soldier has increased storm speed, no biggie but still).

Charge can be buggy and frustrating if wanting to charge and replenish shields and compared to the Sentinel who can play similarly and take more damage, Vanguard is more fun but not really OP'd.

[termokanden]

They're not OP, they're just right. High risk, high reward, that's how it was supposed to be and that's how it works. Except when Charge bugs out of course

[Aynien]

Kronner wrote...

I disagree.
Sentinel is a walking and tougher version of the Vanguard, with some extra powers on top. And it's more forgiving.

And Tech Armor also reset squadies cooldown.

[Kronner]

Aynien wrote...

Kronner wrote...

I disagree.
Sentinel is a walking and tougher version of the Vanguard, with some extra powers on top. And it's more forgiving.

And Tech Armor also reset squadies cooldown.

Yeah, that too. Not to mention Sentinel is the only class in the game that benefits from all non-weapon upgrades.

[termokanden]

You could turn that around and say sentinels are the only class that require all upgrades to function optimally

I don't think it's a particularly big advantage in itself to use two types of powers instead of just one.

[Bozorgmehr]

All classes are OP once you get to know em. Charge is a very powerful ability, but not the easiest to use - high risk, steep learning curve etc. and it requires an unique playstyle unlike powers such as AR and TA (which only require pressing the I WIN-button).

The only (minor) issue I have with the Vanguard class is its high reliance on Charge and lack of access to other cool (biotic/combat) powers. Charge is the (almost) perfect power in my book - not totally OP.

[Lumek]

Kronner wrote...
Yeah, that too. Not to mention Sentinel is the only class in the game that benefits from all non-weapon upgrades.

That could also be considered a weakness though. It needs more upgrades than the other classes to bring all it's assets into line.

On topic however, The way I see it, the Vanguard suffers from Crippling Overspecialization (tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CripplingOverspecialization), between the full shield recovery every 5 seconds and the ability to teleport right into melee range while doing that, the Vanguard is going to dominate when it can do it's thing. But if you bring in an enemy that's out of range, or in too big a group, or just too big to charge at (such as a YMIR, if you suck like me) then the Vanguard loses everything it has, having only an SMG and a Pistol to handle the situation.(technically you also have a heavy weapon, but who uses those?)

[Kronner]

Lumek wrote...

That could also be considered a weakness though. It needs more upgrades than the other classes to bring all it's assets into line.

Not really, biotic upgrades are available only after Horizon (except for one), but you can get 3 tech upgrades (which also means the two special - cooldown and duration - upgrades as well), so Sentinel gets both, while tech or biotic class benefit from only one type.

Lumek wrote...
On topic however, The way I see it, the Vanguard suffers from Crippling Overspecialization (tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CripplingOverspecialization), between the full shield recovery every 5 seconds and the ability to teleport right into melee range while doing that, the Vanguard is going to dominate when it can do it's thing. But if you bring in an enemy that's out of range, or in too big a group, or just too big to charge at (such as a YMIR, if you suck like me) then the Vanguard loses everything it has, having only an SMG and a Pistol to handle the situation.(technically you also have a heavy weapon, but who uses those?)

That's actually pretty awesome IMHO. Overcoming / finding way through a (supposed) weakness is just awesome. One example - I'd never try killing the Thresher Maw with a shotgun (which is extremely effective btw), if I didn't have only Claymore + SMG + Pistol.

Modifié par Kronner, 10 avril 2011 - 02:49 .

[Volus Warlord]

Vanguard gets massacred on Insane without lots of practice and some luck on top. I assure you it is not OP. I liked Engineer better on Insane.

[RGFrog]

I don't think Vanguard is OP, per se. It's powers list is blaze at best. A couple of ammo powers, a few biotics... and it's passive cooldown doesn't even work for the vanguard's main feature.

However, when combined with the right arsenal (namely the claymore with Inferno ammo) and the correct techniques, Vanguard can seem to be a walk in the park.

Then again, the same could be said of an engineer with proper use of the drone.

[Leeroi]

Vanguard isn't OP, but Charge is pretty amazing once you know how to use it. And that's because it combines many things into 1 ability:

1. It instantly transports you to the enemy allowing you to take advantage of point blank damage multiplier. And you don't take damage in the process.
2. It stuns lesser enemies, which again contributes to not taking fire yourself.
3. Time dilation allows for easier aiming and target selection.
4. Shield restore - pretty self explanatory, because it allows you to frequently take advantage of the Shield Drop Immunity.

So all in all it's an amazing ability. Yes, it has a steep learning curve, but once you master it and you take all those things into account, Charge begins to really shine.

[Kronner]

RGFrog wrote...

I don't think Vanguard is OP, per se. It's powers list is blaze at best. A couple of ammo powers, a few biotics... and it's passive cooldown doesn't even work for the vanguard's main feature.

However, when combined with the right arsenal (namely the claymore with Inferno ammo) and the correct techniques, Vanguard can seem to be a walk in the park.

Then again, the same could be said of an engineer with proper use of the drone.

Actually, the passive is the only thing that lowers Charge's cooldown. It's the biotic upgrade that does not affect Charge (on purpose btw).

Modifié par Kronner, 10 avril 2011 - 03:26 .

[termokanden]

Kronner wrote...

Lumek wrote...

That could also be considered a weakness though. It needs more upgrades than the other classes to bring all it's assets into line.

Not really, biotic upgrades are available only after Horizon (except for one), but you can get 3 tech upgrades (which also means the two special - cooldown and duration - upgrades as well), so Sentinel gets both, while tech or biotic class benefit from only one type.

Not that it's a really important point or anything, but I still don't see it. You don't get two cooldown reductions that stack, you get one for tech skills and one for biotic skills. While it sounds like you're getting two upgrades, really you're just having more trouble getting one for ALL of your skills. Arguably it would be best just to have to get the easiest type - tech upgrades.

I think engineers have it the easiest by far. 100% tech skills so they get the quickest upgrades for all skills, and engineers even get a research bonus so they have to do less scanning.

Modifié par termokanden, 10 avril 2011 - 03:29 .

[Kronner]

termokanden wrote...

Not that it's a really important point or anything, but I still don't see it. You don't get two cooldown reductions that stack, you get one for tech skills and one for biotic skills. While it sounds like you're getting two upgrades, really you're just having more trouble getting one for ALL of your skills.

I dunno, you can use Overload or Warp to remove protections right from the start, and your abilities improve with the upgrades, and work against everything. Adept on the other hand has nothing against shields (excluding tech bonus power), and doesn't benefit as much from tech research (only some squadmates do). Sentinel also has the shortest cooldowns..kinda unfair. Should be jack of all trades, but it is master of all trades

Modifié par Kronner, 10 avril 2011 - 03:30 .

[termokanden]

I don't disagree about all that. But the part about using two types of upgrades I see as a slight weakness (or inconvenience).

By the way, it annoys me how sentinels need rank 2 Throw to get Warp. Very annoying because I don't see why you'd ever need or want more than 1 point in Throw. It just limits your build options quite a bit.

Modifié par termokanden, 10 avril 2011 - 03:39 .

[XCPTNL]

Vanguard is kind of a strange class in ME2. There were (and sometimes still are) a lot of people who kept ****ing about how hard is was to play an Insanity Vanguard. But if you know the game and know what you are doing no other class can clear levels as fast as the Vanguard and annihilate everything in his way. Then you might think it's OP and it feels OP to me at times - but I know what I'm doing and played the game so many times. So the Vanguard per se is not OP. But it can be in the hands of a good player.

[Gavinthelocust]

Compared to the Infiltrator who can kill most enemies before they become a threat I wouldn't call Vanguards OP.

[Bozorgmehr]

Gavinthelocust wrote...

Compared to the Infiltrator who can kill most enemies before they become a threat I wouldn't call Vanguards OP.

How can they do that exactly? As soon as enemies appear they know where Shep is and playing on Insanity gives the enemy perfect aim. You cannot take them out without enemies shooting (and hitting) Shep in the process.

If you mean getting into cover, activate Cloak and fire a Widow shot, back into cover (rinse and repeat) to kill all enemies, than yes that's easy, but very slow (and boring) compared to what a Vanguard can do using Charge and a nice shottie.

[Relix28]

Vanguard is a high-risk - high-reward type of class. More so than any other class in the game IMO.If you manage to miss that clutch shot in a critical situation, you usually die faster than anyone else. But, if you charge with a plan and start chaining those kill combos, you can clear out the whole room in no time and make it look easy. It does require a lot of getting used to, and it is very unforgiving most of the time. But thankfully there is a lot of satisfaction, when you strategically charge around the battlefield and pwning everyone with point-blank Claymore shots.
I don't think Vanguards are overpowered, Charge is a powerfull ability, but it is also very risky. If you compare it to Adrenaline Rush, it is the complete opposite in terms of risk taking. You take zero risk when you activate AR, and still get all kinds of awesome benefits from it. If anything Vanguard is one of the least overpowered classes in the game.

[Aumata]

Lumek wrote...

Kronner wrote...
Yeah, that too. Not to mention Sentinel is the only class in the game that benefits from all non-weapon upgrades.

That could also be considered a weakness though. It needs more upgrades than the other classes to bring all it's assets into line.

On topic however, The way I see it, the Vanguard suffers from Crippling Overspecialization (tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CripplingOverspecialization), between the full shield recovery every 5 seconds and the ability to teleport right into melee range while doing that, the Vanguard is going to dominate when it can do it's thing. But if you bring in an enemy that's out of range, or in too big a group, or just too big to charge at (such as a YMIR, if you suck like me) then the Vanguard loses everything it has, having only an SMG and a Pistol to handle the situation.(technically you also have a heavy weapon, but who uses those?)

That can be easily turned around if you use cryo ammo.  Charging and using a Improved cryo-claymore can have you easily one shotting people, and those that survives are frozen. Having you move to the next target.  Having Stasis is overkill on a vanguard, but vanguards are high-risk, high-reward.  So it is entierily up to how you play.  My Vanguard Build:
Inferno Ammo
Improved Cryo Ammo
Heavy Charge
Shock wave 1
Champion
Enhanced Stasis
I find myself rarely using Inferno Ammo, near the end up of my build once I obtain the Claymore Shotgun, and have upgrades for my shotgun.  Stasis is their for any big threat that I can't really handle on my own.  I am probably gonna need more practice with this build.

[HTTP 404]

The Soldier is the easiest and BORING-iest class to play on Insanity and lower. Just get the widow, use adreneline and one shot a few dudes and you got an assault rifle to top it off(dlc assualt rifles on top of that). Vanguard isn't overpowered in comparision, don't sell yourself short Stardusk, you're just really good at it.

[Iodine]

The unique class skills (Charge/etc.) are balanced relative to the other class skills, but not with respect to the difficulty levels, AI, and generic skills. Before you dismiss this outright, it mostly applies to the people who have "mastered" the game, those who have been playing Insanity for long enough that it feels almost like Casual. It's not just Charge/vanguards, though - all of the unique skills except Singularity are fundamentally very similar (albeit Drone is a bit of a stretch and primarily by indirect means).

I'm sure many of you will disagree with me on one or both points, but I'll save you the extra long wall of text and just point out the key common features I'm referring to that make these unique skills seem overpowered (unless someone actually wants me to list them all for each class skill ):
1) Increased mobility across exposed ground (ability to leave cover safely/for prolonged periods)
2) Increased survivability (Health/Shield boost or damage reduction)
3) Increased damage (directly or indirectly)
with
4) A few minor balancing factors that keep the skill from being blatantly overpowered

While these could be argued for almost any skill, each feature is much more exaggerated/prevalent on the class unique skills. If you don't feel like pondering the similarities or still don't see it, go play the same mission (aggressively enough to utilize all aspects) on CQC/shotgun variants of a vanguard, assault sentinel, infiltrator, and soldier, and focus on the similar usage of the classes' unique skills. I'm not trying to downplay anyone's skill, quite the opposite - you've reached a certain level of proficiency where the game has lost most of its challenge, and the abilities designed for "average" players now seem overpowered.

Modifié par Iodine, 11 avril 2011 - 06:49 .

[XCPTNL]

HTTP 404 wrote...

The Soldier is the easiest and BORING-iest class to play on Insanity and lower. Just get the widow, use adreneline and one shot a few dudes and you got an assault rifle to top it off(dlc assualt rifles on top of that). Vanguard isn't overpowered in comparision, don't sell yourself short Stardusk, you're just really good at it.

It's your own fault if you use Mattock/Widow on the Soldier instead of picking up the Claymore or the Revenant which both make the soldier much more fun to play.