22 réponses à ce sujet

[graavigala85]

Am I missing something or do you get to know  them properly only in Act3?

You do see Meredith after first year but you dont know who she is. Some major person maybe but still no explanation what so ever. I saw Orsino first time in the Fade part and I had no idea what so ever who he was. Everyone else did, even the halfelf kid who was living with Elves knew who he was, but not me!

When act3 came I found it very hard to give two rats ass for both of them. I tried to avoid joining both of them and just kill them all for exp but you couldnt. I had no interest in both of their fates and this is where the problem lies. You are thrown right in the middle of action and you are assumed to actually care for both of them let alone side with another group.

When I first played DA2 trough I joined templars only because I had done more quests for them and they were not all pack of wankers or crazy bloodmages. How am I supposed to feel any love towards mages when every single mage you meet just wants to spray his/hers blood on the walls and summon demons? Even your own companion, Merril is a friggin bloodmage!

The story in DA2 is ultimately about the conflict between mages and templars, right? So why is there so little time used to tell this story? Why not introduce us to the main characters between the feud sooner?  Why not have you side with them sooner. You choose a faction wich to follow and then when the ultimate showdown comes you stick with that decision. 

I honestly tought that when DA2 was announced that the major thing in the game was the Qunari and/or maybe something sinister, like demons from the Fade, huge uprising of the Blight from deeproads (this popped in my mind on act1) or something like that. Not anything anti-climatic like battle between mages and templar who you dont give rats ass about.

Edit for more:

Also why arent we allowed to visit the Circle? It obviously plays major part in the games "story" so why not allows accest to see whats the big whooppa is all about?

Modifié par graavigala85, 10 avril 2011 - 03:51 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

One of the game's most glaring flaws yes. The virtual absence of character development for the two people whose faces' show up when you start the game.

[graavigala85]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

One of the game's most glaring flaws yes. The virtual absence of character development for the two people whose faces' show up when you start the game.

Yes! This was anothet thing that I wondered, who the hell were these people when you start the game, they couldnt be the Qunari and you. I just tought that its a nice picture, nothing more

[Bullets McDeath]

Spot on. Orsino in particular. Meredith you at least hear a lot about throughout the game. No one ever talks about the First Enchanter that I can recall.

When Orsino showed up I was like "who is the Dracula looking mother****er? Why does no one care that obvious Blood Mage is obvious? Oh, it's the First Enchanter. I... whatever, game".

[Plaintiff]

I didn't need to know Orsino to feel sympathy for mages. It seemed pretty obvious to me that they turned to blood magic because they felt there was no other choice. And I'm just fundamentally opposed to imprisoning people for what they are anyway. Locking up mages is no different to me than locking up homosexuals or black people or women.

The fact that Merrill is a Blood Mage didn't bother me at all. She never uses it out of malice, so what is she actually doing wrong?

I guess it's a case of Your Mileage May Vary. When I was playing Origins, the mage/templar situation was one of the most interesting aspects for me, so I was actually very glad to see it was given the spotlight. But Dragon Age has a pretty big, varied world. I'm sure lots of other people found other things more fascinating.

[Cutlass Jack]

Well Meredith does actually show up during act 1 in the scene where you first meet Varric (as the person the thief wisely decides not to pickpocket) Not that you really get to know her at all in that Scene.

Orsinio shows up during the Fade sequence in that act as well, but you'd have no way of recognizing him.

Orsinio lost sympathy with me before I ever met him due to the note in the lair. Though I'll admit to liking him just a little when we finally talked.

Modifié par Cutlass Jack, 10 avril 2011 - 04:09 .

[Obadiah]

Agreed. I was very impressed when Meredith and Orsino showed up at the end of Act 2 and, though rivals, worked together. Then Act 3 comes around they both turn out to be a couple of nutters. I think this could probably be fixed with some beefed up codex entries describing the 3 years between Act 2 and Act 3, but really the game just needs to give more interaction to Hawke with these 2 characters.

Plus, in Act 3 Hawke is supposed to be one of the most powerful and influential people in Kirkwall. However, all he can do is have one meaningful conversation with either of these characters before the finale? Bit of a wasted opportunity there.

Modifié par Obadiah, 10 avril 2011 - 04:14 .

[graavigala85]

Plaintiff wrote...

I guess it's a case of Your Mileage May Vary. When I was playing Origins, the mage/templar situation was one of the most interesting aspects for me, so I was actually very glad to see it was given the spotlight. But Dragon Age has a pretty big, varied world. I'm sure lots of other people found other things more fascinating.

I also liked the Mages/templars in origins, it was interesting, so ofcourse I wanted to see more of this in DA2 but I didnt, I just hear about it, little pieces here and there, I see nothing going on in the circle and this is why you should have acces there, just like in the DAO.

Imprisioning is wrong but you are shown templars in game who are people who actually care about mages, mages just want to run away. I think the story is told wrong. Its too one sided, even when you play as a mage. The story in DA2 is too much templar oriented, or atleast they are in bigger role as "good guys" rather than mages who are the "victims" but are portrayed as nothing more than bad guys, even in the end Orsino turns into demon just for the laughs, also he is the bastard who wanted to play with Doctor Frankenstein, so its really hard to side with them.

[SarEnyaDor]

I don't know about that, if you play a templar supporting person she opens up about how her own sister was an apostate mage that her family tried to protect and keep out of the circle, but then turned into an abomination because that sweet girl couldn't resist the demons whispering to her while she slept and then Meredith had to kill her sister after her sister killed the rest of her family... that is why she became a Templar to make sure that never happened to anyone else again.

I liked her alot more after that, at least understood where she came from. Orsino? Not so much. Can't believe he protected Quinten.

[whitless256]

I do agree that I would have liked to see more development of Meredith and Orsino, though I don't agree there's as little development as you think.  True, you don't meet them before Act 3, but you hear a great deal about them throughout the city.  More about Meredith, true, but you are given info about Orsino as well, mostly through brief mentions of him by mages and templars.  Still, it would have been nice if you had more to go on.

However, I disagree with you when it comes to how much of the mages vs templars storyline you get before act 3.  There are tons of quests involving mages and templars that give you an ever increasing view of the conflict.  To steal your own words, you do do more quests "for the Teamplars," but that's only because the Circle mages aren't exactly in a position to give you quests.  But each quest allows you to side with mages or templars and each new quest gives you some new insight into the situation.

Take the Starkhaven mages in Act 1.  Karas will give you a pretty clear picture of Meredith's views on rebel mages.  She wants them dead because she doesn't want the renegades preaching to the "tame" ones.  There's some direct character development for Meredith right there.

Through Feynriel's quest in act 1 you learn that the main reason he's afraid to go to the Circle is that they'll Tranquil him, and if you turn him in he'll be in the Gallows to tell you outright that's what they're going to do to him if he doesn't get better.

You can learn quite a bit about the circle simply by talking to Cullen in both Acts 1 and 2. 

Also, if you hang around the Gallows you'll get tons of commentary from the NPCs, including a rather heartwrenching conversation between and apprentice and a Tranquil who had once been lovers.

I think you get a pretty clear image of the mage vs. templars conflict by the time you have to make your call in Act 3.  Of course, if you don't take the time to listen to NPC conversations or talk to people like Cullen and Thrask, or Mistress Selby, you don't learn a lot of the story and you're going to reach act 3 feeling like you don't have a lot of info.  I don't think you have to care for Orsino or Meredith as people to choose to support one side or another.  You just have to use your knowledge about the conflict itself.  I'm not helping Orsino at the end, I'm helping the mages.  Also

graavigala85 wrote...

Also why arent we allowed to visit the Circle? It obviously plays major part in the games "story" so why not allows accest to see whats the big whooppa is all about?

The Gallows IS the Circle. At least the public face of it.  There's no reason for the Templars to allow you inside the inner portion just like they don't let just anyone wander around the Ferelden Circle either. 

[savagesparrow]

I thought it was cool how they handled Meredith throughout the acts--you hear more of her deeds than seeing her, and when you finally do meet her at the end of Act 2 you see her as a hard lady, but not without reason (she may not like Orsino creating a 'distraction' but she understands your decision and accepts it). In particular, the quest where she vetos the Tranquil Solution and the conversation with Anders that follows I really enjoyed. Then you get to see her views better through Act 3, and watch as she goes completely off her rocker (though a bit more interaction with her would've been nice to make it a better transition).

Orsino on the other hand, you have no idea who the hell he is. He shows up as you in the Fade, yes, but I didn't realize he was the first enchanter of Kirkwall, I thought he was just some random first enchanter from Feynriel's past. No one really talks about Orsino ever (aside from that note, and if you haven't played the game before, you're not going to know who 'O' is), so we don't really get to know his beliefs. It'd be nice if there was more of a transition where you hear about Orsino arguing with Meredith or Orsino assisting in mage escapes or something in conversations with NPCs and random people on the street. It would've also made his transformation into a harvester all the more powerful if we would've been able to see, like the arishok, how frustration and finally helplessness at the situation drove him to something so horrible.

[graavigala85]

whitless256 wrote...

I do agree that I would have liked to see more development of Meredith and Orsino, though I don't agree there's as little development as you think.  True, you don't meet them before Act 3, but you hear a great deal about them throughout the city.  More about Meredith, true, but you are given info about Orsino as well, mostly through brief mentions of him by mages and templars.  Still, it would have been nice if you had more to go on.

However, I disagree with you when it comes to how much of the mages vs templars storyline you get before act 3.  There are tons of quests involving mages and templars that give you an ever increasing view of the conflict.  To steal your own words, you do do more quests "for the Teamplars," but that's only because the Circle mages aren't exactly in a position to give you quests.  But each quest allows you to side with mages or templars and each new quest gives you some new insight into the situation.

Take the Starkhaven mages in Act 1.  Karas will give you a pretty clear picture of Meredith's views on rebel mages.  She wants them dead because she doesn't want the renegades preaching to the "tame" ones.  There's some direct character development for Meredith right there.

Through Feynriel's quest in act 1 you learn that the main reason he's afraid to go to the Circle is that they'll Tranquil him, and if you turn him in he'll be in the Gallows to tell you outright that's what they're going to do to him if he doesn't get better.

You can learn quite a bit about the circle simply by talking to Cullen in both Acts 1 and 2. 

Also, if you hang around the Gallows you'll get tons of commentary from the NPCs, including a rather heartwrenching conversation between and apprentice and a Tranquil who had once been lovers.

I think you get a pretty clear image of the mage vs. templars conflict by the time you have to make your call in Act 3.  Of course, if you don't take the time to listen to NPC conversations or talk to people like Cullen and Thrask, or Mistress Selby, you don't learn a lot of the story and you're going to reach act 3 feeling like you don't have a lot of info.  I don't think you have to care for Orsino or Meredith as people to choose to support one side or another.  You just have to use your knowledge about the conflict itself.  I'm not helping Orsino at the end, I'm helping the mages.  Also

graavigala85 wrote...

Also why arent we allowed to visit the Circle? It obviously plays major part in the games "story" so why not allows accest to see whats the big whooppa is all about?

The Gallows IS the Circle. At least the public face of it.  There's no reason for the Templars to allow you inside the inner portion just like they don't let just anyone wander around the Ferelden Circle either. 

That was a nice answer, I did go little too angry and pour all the hate in here but thats just how I see the situation in the game And I do take notice of the little banter between people in the game, I find it very interesting but I think im just too old-school (read stupid) that I need to see the persons and not just hear about the, Its like in the movies or books.

I want to know about the characters trought the book and not just have a little note of them on the last pages. Yes, I do know you get to know about them but I mean you meet them, you share a coffee, eat a bagel, stuff like that.


The reason what I ment about visithing the circle is that your mother is allowed to go there see your sister, if she is alive, but you, the player, arent. This is why I would like to get to know more about the situation in the Circle. To see if its really that bad. To help make it better if its indeed bad

[whitless256]

graavigala85 wrote...

That was a nice answer, I did go little too angry and pour all the hate in here but thats just how I see the situation in the game And I do take notice of the little banter between people in the game, I find it very interesting but I think im just too old-school (read stupid) that I need to see the persons and not just hear about the, Its like in the movies or books.

I want to know about the characters trought the book and not just have a little note of them on the last pages. Yes, I do know you get to know about them but I mean you meet them, you share a coffee, eat a bagel, stuff like that.


The reason what I ment about visithing the circle is that your mother is allowed to go there see your sister, if she is alive, but you, the player, arent. This is why I would like to get to know more about the situation in the Circle. To see if its really that bad. To help make it better if its indeed bad

Ah, see I never sent Bethany to the Circle so I didn't even know your mother could go visit her.  I have to agree with you there.  Though I guess it was easier to keep everyone out rather than making the exception for the fairly small portion of characters who send Bethany to the Circle rather than making her a Warden or killing her off.... or worse, characters who ARE mages.   It was probably both parts equal opportunity for all characters plus budget and time concerns of having to actually make the inside of the Circle.  But now I'm rambling and I'll stop.

And I absolutely agree that it would have been really nice to actually sit down and have a real conversation, especially with Orsino, once you're able to visit him in his office.  Especially when your Hawke is a known apostate.  I do understand Orsino wanting to be tight-lipped though since he's watched so closely. 

We should campaign for a DLC where we sit down to coffee with Orsino and Meredith.

[Rifneno]

outlaworacle wrote...

Spot on. Orsino in particular. Meredith you at least hear a lot about throughout the game. No one ever talks about the First Enchanter that I can recall.

When Orsino showed up I was like "who is the Dracula looking mother****er? Why does no one care that obvious Blood Mage is obvious? Oh, it's the First Enchanter. I... whatever, game".

More like Count Chocula than Count Dracula, but otherwise spot on.  Soon as I saw that robe and more importantly that staff, I immediately thought "this is gonna be one badass maleficar to take down..."  Turns out I was wrong, he was pretty easy to take down.  Which was a shocker, considering the first harvester made the archdemon look like a puppy.  But seriously, it only took one glance at him to realize he's made of evil, and probably storing massive evil deposits in that cavernous mine he calls a nose.

[Plaintiff]

I actually did not spot Orsino. But then I'm not the most observant player ever. When he was rambling about Quentin I had no idea what the hell was going on.

And then on my second playthrough, during All That Remains, I picked up the note from 'O' and I was like "Who the hell is- Oh yeaaaaaah. Now it makes sense."

[whitless256]

I must be the only one who didn't peg Orsino as "evil" on first sight. In fact, I liked him quite a bit. And even with his many flaws, having played the game several times, I still don't think he's evil.

[Obadiah]

whitless256 wrote...
...
We should campaign for a DLC where we sit down to coffee with Orsino and Meredith.

Um... maybe a patch, but $7 for something that should have been in-game (already $60)? Not I.

[graavigala85]

Obadiah wrote...

whitless256 wrote...
...
We should campaign for a DLC where we sit down to coffee with Orsino and Meredith.

Um... maybe a patch, but $7 for something that should have been in-game (already $60)? Not I.

Oh come on... You would love to pay for empty crap *tries to hypnotise you with a EA-pocke****ch*


But in all seriousnes, If Bioware decides to tell the story with DLC its game over for me. I will not put single cent on any of the DLC's that is being marketed "Story continues!" or anything like that. Yes give me more characters, give me more areas to play DURING the time you are in the Kirkwall but not anything that continues the story... I rather have a decent Expansion for that

[Iosev]

whitless256 wrote...

I do agree that I would have liked to see more development of Meredith and Orsino, though I don't agree there's as little development as you think.  True, you don't meet them before Act 3, but you hear a great deal about them throughout the city.  More about Meredith, true, but you are given info about Orsino as well, mostly through brief mentions of him by mages and templars.  Still, it would have been nice if you had more to go on.

However, I disagree with you when it comes to how much of the mages vs templars storyline you get before act 3.  There are tons of quests involving mages and templars that give you an ever increasing view of the conflict.  To steal your own words, you do do more quests "for the Teamplars," but that's only because the Circle mages aren't exactly in a position to give you quests.  But each quest allows you to side with mages or templars and each new quest gives you some new insight into the situation.

Take the Starkhaven mages in Act 1.  Karas will give you a pretty clear picture of Meredith's views on rebel mages.  She wants them dead because she doesn't want the renegades preaching to the "tame" ones.  There's some direct character development for Meredith right there.

Through Feynriel's quest in act 1 you learn that the main reason he's afraid to go to the Circle is that they'll Tranquil him, and if you turn him in he'll be in the Gallows to tell you outright that's what they're going to do to him if he doesn't get better.

You can learn quite a bit about the circle simply by talking to Cullen in both Acts 1 and 2. 

Also, if you hang around the Gallows you'll get tons of commentary from the NPCs, including a rather heartwrenching conversation between and apprentice and a Tranquil who had once been lovers.

I think you get a pretty clear image of the mage vs. templars conflict by the time you have to make your call in Act 3.  Of course, if you don't take the time to listen to NPC conversations or talk to people like Cullen and Thrask, or Mistress Selby, you don't learn a lot of the story and you're going to reach act 3 feeling like you don't have a lot of info.  I don't think you have to care for Orsino or Meredith as people to choose to support one side or another.  You just have to use your knowledge about the conflict itself.  I'm not helping Orsino at the end, I'm helping the mages.  Also

graavigala85 wrote...

Also why arent we allowed to visit the Circle? It obviously plays major part in the games "story" so why not allows accest to see whats the big whooppa is all about?

The Gallows IS the Circle. At least the public face of it.  There's no reason for the Templars to allow you inside the inner portion just like they don't let just anyone wander around the Ferelden Circle either. 

Well said.  While the game doesn't outright state the plot, the game constantly exposes you to the conflict between magi and templar.  For example, within the first few minutes of playing the game, the templar Ser Wesley confronts Bethany.  The first guard you talk to when you arrive in Kirkwall talks about the magi being imprisoned in the Gallows, and also mentions Meredith.  Both Meeran and Athenril both talk about you or Bethany being mage.  After your year of servitude, you and your sibling are again looking for ways to gain status to hide from the templar.

Those are all within the first few minutes of play, and you're even further exposed to the mage/templar conflict throughout the remainder of the game.  While it would have been nice to see a little more of Meredith and Orsino prior to the end of the second act, it's not as if the mage/templar conflict suddenly emerges out of no where.

[Rifneno]

Plaintiff wrote...

I actually did not spot Orsino. But then I'm not the most observant player ever. When he was rambling about Quentin I had no idea what the hell was going on.

And then on my second playthrough, during All That Remains, I picked up the note from 'O' and I was like "Who the hell is- Oh yeaaaaaah. Now it makes sense."

When he started going on about Quentin, I had totally forgotten who that was.  I'm terrible with names.  I remembered the zombie mom quest vividly, but not Ser Psycho's name.

whitless256 wrote...

I must be the only one who didn't peg Orsino as "evil" on first sight. In fact, I liked him quite a bit. And even with his many flaws, having played the game several times, I still don't think he's evil.

Yeah, I was starting to warm up to him by the end.  He seemed sincere and unlike Loghain he didn't have the Evil Voice™ so I thought "maybe I was wrong..."  Then he started throwing body parts at me.

[whitless256]

Rifneno wrote...

whitless256 wrote...

I must be the only one who didn't peg Orsino as "evil" on first sight. In fact, I liked him quite a bit. And even with his many flaws, having played the game several times, I still don't think he's evil.

Yeah, I was starting to warm up to him by the end.  He seemed sincere and unlike Loghain he didn't have the Evil Voice™ so I thought "maybe I was wrong..."  Then he started throwing body parts at me.

Yeah, the throwing of body parts really put a damper on our budding relationship.

[Obadiah]

arcelonious wrote...

whitless256 wrote...

I do agree that I would have liked to see more development of Meredith and Orsino, though I don't agree there's as little development as you think.
...

Well said.  While the game doesn't outright state the plot, the game constantly exposes you to the conflict between magi and templar.
...

This is true, there is a fair amount of exposition on the Mage/Templar conflict, and on the ambivalent feelings of the Templars. I just think there is more to Meredith than fanatic dedication and paranoid insanity, and to Orsino than succumbing to the pressures of being the constant subject of public paranoia.

In the same way that speaking to Loghain in DAO gave you the rationale on his views on Orlais and the Wardens (it's one thing to read about it, it's another to hear him say it), I would have liked that kind of insight into Meredith and Orsino.

For myself, truthfully, I was not liking the game much by the climax, so maybe that was in there and I just did not notice.

Modifié par Obadiah, 10 avril 2011 - 07:29 .

[Rifneno]

whitless256 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

whitless256 wrote...

I must be the only one who didn't peg Orsino as "evil" on first sight. In fact, I liked him quite a bit. And even with his many flaws, having played the game several times, I still don't think he's evil.

Yeah, I was starting to warm up to him by the end.  He seemed sincere and unlike Loghain he didn't have the Evil Voice™ so I thought "maybe I was wrong..."  Then he started throwing body parts at me.

Yeah, the throwing of body parts really put a damper on our budding relationship.

I know, right?  Does that freak know how hard it is to get the smell of elf intestines off black leather?