127 réponses à ce sujet

[vyvexthorne]

First play through and just did Orzammar..I'm playing a Dalish elf.. you come to Orzammar knowing absolutely nothing about either party.. and are forced to decide which one to crown. You get hardly any information on either party. I tried to do both.. hoping to learn a bit more about who I was working for. But I didn't.. the only thing I found was a letter in Harrowmont's estate stating that the king liked him. Taking both jobs you learn that they are both slimy.

Truly a hard decision..

1. I was nervous that if I chose the wrong one I wouldn't get the support I needed later.

2. I didn't want to be the one to make the decision .. It was just kind of forced upon me and it seemed weird that I would be the one that these proceedings would revolve around. Especially since most comments about me were.. "hmm an elf.. I've never seen your type before."



My choice came down to Harrowmont solely based off of the two officials that I had to deal with before I could even meet who I was supposed to be supporting. I liked Harrowmonts guy better than the princes guy.

The paragon choice was pretty simple for me.. I had Shale, Oghrem and Wynne. I could either risk pissing off two characters or just ****** of oghrem.. As it turned out I got a positive reaction from Oghrem anyway.

[Loregothe]

To the OP.



Obviously the answer to your question is you are not SUPPOSED to take away anything. You take away what you take away. Art is Art. What you walk away with is the same thing you walked in with. What you think about the Art says something about you, not the Art or the Artist.



A game is entertainment, it is art. Nothing more, nothing less.

[syllogi]

Taleroth wrote...
Blood Magic wasn't his failing.  It was pride.  You can view his possession by a Pride demon as an extension of it.  Similar to Conner's desire to save his father lent him to possession by a Desire demon.  Both did so willingly.

Now, I don't quite remember what the clues where that he was a proud person.  I just recall Wynne didn't like him.  And that he thought Loghain would free them from the Chantry.

One of the codex entries (I think it's "Irving's Mistake") is a journal entry by Irving talking about how Uldred was very good at finding blood mages and leading them to out themselves.  Obviously Uldred had been plotting for a long time to make this move.

Uldred's initial motivation, along with the other blood mages in the Circle, is somewhat understandable.  When I did my mage origin runthrough, I was creeped out by talking to Cullen, who seems to have a crush on my female PC mage, but tells her immediately "I was the one who would have killed you if you failed the Harrowing" . . . err, yeah, so glad you and your fellows are "protecting" me . . . and Jowan's situation (other than what he did to accomplish his goals) seems understandable too.  He was damned no matter what he did, so he might as well go all out in pursuit of freedom.  If someone offered me a way out of a life that felt horribly constrained and miserable, by using power that I *knew* I had, well, it would be tempting.

[marshalleck]

What I took away from this is OP's having a hard time dealing with being dumped by Morrigan. It's alright man, we've all been there before.

[Taleroth]

marshalleck wrote...

What I took away from this is OP's having a hard time dealing with being dumped by Morrigan. It's alright man, we've all been there before.

Hold me.

[Akka le Vil]

Taleroth wrote...

Moral of the Dwarves?  Sometimes the less ideal choice leads to a better outcome for you and extra help you need.  Also, politicians suck.

You want to talk about a dark ending with shady morals and "politic sucks" ?
Because you forgot the worse choice in the game, the darkest, the one that kicks you the harder in the balls.

You have to chose either to die or let either Morrigan or Anora get away with her scheme.

If that isn't an hair-pulling dilemma, I don't know what is.

And as you seem to like TvTropes : that's where we start to invoque the need about taking a third option (namely, kill both b*tches and bring the idiot Grey Warden who wants to play the hero by himself by the collar "shut up and come with us").

Modifié par Akka le Vil, 18 novembre 2009 - 08:55 .

[RunCDFirst]

TeenZombie wrote...
Uldred's initial motivation, along with the other blood mages in the Circle, is somewhat understandable.  When I did my mage origin runthrough, I was creeped out by talking to Cullen, who seems to have a crush on my female PC mage, but tells her immediately "I was the one who would have killed you if you failed the Harrowing" . . . err, yeah, so glad you and your fellows are "protecting" me . . . and Jowan's situation (other than what he did to accomplish his goals) seems understandable too.  He was damned no matter what he did, so he might as well go all out in pursuit of freedom.  If someone offered me a way out of a life that felt horribly constrained and miserable, by using power that I *knew* I had, well, it would be tempting.

It is... almost understandable. Until the Blood Mages very actions themselves prove the necessity of the Templars presence. It's the sole reason I didn't request the Circle be freed from the Chantry at the end of the game. It's quite clear that the mages currently have a problem with resisting temptation, no point it making that temptation easier.

I sympathized with Jowan up to the point where he started lying to you. When I asked why the Templars thought he was using Blood Magic and he responded with 'Well, I was sneaking off to see my shnookums they must have just been confused' I knew he was full of pigeon crap. Had he said that he dabbled in Blood Magic in an attempt to prepare for the Harrowing and that he swore that he was never going to use it knowing full well that it was dangerous then I might have some sympathy. Alas...

Taleroth wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

What I took away from this is OP's having a hard time dealing with being dumped by Morrigan. It's alright man, we've all been there before.

Hold me.

*Holds Taleroth*

Modifié par RunCDFirst, 18 novembre 2009 - 09:04 .

[LaztRezort]

To OP, interesting analysis.

I, for one, am glad that there is no obvious morals put in the story -- that would make it a morality tale, and worse yet, they would be someone else's morals, not mine.  The way it is makes the story seem more realistic:  any of us can choose how to interpret it thematically if we choose, and we can derive our own meaning from it.

Yeah, there are some things in the story that just don't seem fair.  But you know what that reminds me of?  The complexity of real life.  Lots of unfair things happen in the real world, and people employ many mechanisms to soften the blow:  belief in karma, belief in punishment/reward after death, belief in a greater plan by a guiding intelligence, belief in the idea that pain and suffering make one stronger, turning a blind eye, etc.

In the case of DA:O, we have some added mechanisms we can ponder:  the writers were trying to establish a particular theme (the OP argument), the writers are leaving tie-ins for sequels, the writers were trying to be dark just for the sake of it, etc.

One thing is sure to me:  the fact that we are compelled to have these discussions indicates that we have, at the very least, a good story on our hands with DA:O.

[Forsakerr]

Taleroth wrote...

I suspected he was framed too, but couldn't see how it is possible.  We actually went to the people the deals were with.  We showed them papers, they got convinced of it on their own.  There had to be something convincing in that paper that left them so damned sure.

However, Bhelen does similar tricks several times, so it's very right to suspect him of foul play.

those documents are forged , go see the shaperate and talk to the shaper guy he will look them up and tell you they were modified to make it look like something but they are false , Harromont did nt do nothing on the opposite of Bhelen who blackmail, lie and manipulate people making him look like a victim while he certainly is not


edit: Reiella had already mentioned it , serves me right not to read a full thread before adding a reply hehe

Modifié par Forsakerr, 18 novembre 2009 - 10:44 .

[SeanMurphy2]

If you seek powerful magic to accomplish something, you can lose control and destroy everything.



Redcliffe - Connor tries to save his father but kills hundreds of people and almost destroys the whole village. Jowan inadvertantly starts the trouble with his use of magic.



Mage Tower - Magic needs to be regulated. Uldred ends up destroying most of the mages when he rebels against the Templars.



Elves - Uses a magical curse that eventually infects his own tribe.



Dwarves - Carridin creates a powerful Anvil that eventually gets misused. He loses control of it and is himself turned into a Golem.



Loghain - Causes the problems at Redcliffe and Circle tower through magic. Betrays the King expecting to easily gain power. But causes a destructive civil war and for the Blight to advance deep into Ferelden.



Tevinter Mages - Myth says they tried to gain entry to the golden city but caused the Darkspawn.

[SeanMurphy2]

Also power was used with initially good intentions.



Connor used it to save his father. Uldred to give the Mages freedom. Zathrien to revenge a horrific deed. Caridin to defend the Dwarves from the darkspawn. Loghain to preserve the sovereignty of Ferelden.

[KalosCast]

ITT: The OP confuses reading TVtropes.org with being a literary critic, and completely missed the whole "gameplay and story segregation" page. He then fails to realize that only stories that attempt to teach a moral lesson can have broken moral lessons.

Modifié par KalosCast, 19 novembre 2009 - 01:34 .

[PatT2]

Nhani wrote...

Themes? Do I even need to mention the Hero's Journey? It's a pretty given obvious, no matter how malleable parts of it is - if you reject your Call to Adventure, the journey itself will still drag you along kicking and screaming. Many of the traditional parts are all there, no matter how dark or grim people might ascribe them to be. Either out of an obligation you didn't want, a desperate desire to survive or just the kindness of his/her heart, your character will follow the Hero's Journey.

That said, this isn't a fairytale - telling a moral isn't the point (and I'd like to think that part is pretty obvious). If it tries to tell anything though, I suppose it is about consequence - making a choice and living with it - seeing the repercussions after in epilogues. Each path taken is a narrative on its own - however driven we people are to min/max our own narrative experience and look for the ultimate solution.. doing that takes away from the narrative, weakens the choices made and removes the weight.

A choice is much different when made with the benefit of foresight.

I have a comparisson of sorts, actually, of a much different sort of game: Wing Commander, the very first one back from 1990. They actually made a branching narrative for it, where how well you made decided roughly what path you took through the game in terms of campaigns and missions, and so long your character remained alive and able to fly, you could technically continue no matter how badly you botched things up. (Though sooner or later you hit an end that was unwinnable if you did that badly). So what was the problem? Well.. people just kept loading when they failed to reach the 'best' possible outcome and very few ever saw (nor accepted) the alternate route but the very best. The second game, by comparisson, was completely linear.

If anything, I'd say if you're looking for the game to have a moral point, or to leave you with something, I'd say that something actually evaporates when we know what's coming. The point is our choices, what do we choose - or perhaps rather what does our characters choose.

Nice post! Well reasoned. QFT.

[PatT2]

A few things that various posts brought to mind.



If ever you start on a journey of revenge, first start it by digging two graves.



It is said that Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. But perhaps it is better said that power attracts the corruptible.

Some of the most upright men have failed to be good leaders, and some of the best leaders did not start as upright men. It is, like all the rest of us, for them a journey in which their minds can be changed.

[PatT2]

Curry Noodles wrote...

What's wrong with the caste system?

I think the problem with the caste system is that you have a large portion of the population outside of it, where they aren't even treated as sentient beings.  There's a document somewhere in orzammar that indicates the reason the casteless are still casteless is to ensure a steady supply of suicide soldiers into the legion of the dead. 

The problem with the caste system (the problems) are manifold. The "system " has no way of measuring whether a person has talent, ability or whatever. Someone born caste-less, someone even with Einstein's ability, would be completely wasted. Because he was born caste-less, irregardless of his abilities. Someone with an affinity for wordsmithing might have to pound iron. Etc.
There are so many things wrong with the caste system it would take a book to explain, and those books exist. Ask anyone from the Dalit caste in India if the caste system works.

[Malificis]

Extremely interesting and well written.

I approve - and i tend to "kick" most people who post here "in the cherry picker" for ridiculous and badly thought out opinions.



On the Orzammar line - people who would use strongarm tactics to get what they want wont necessarily be strongarming when they get what they want. Many rulers who have gotten to their positions in history by walking up a pile of rivals skulls have turned out to have benefited their principality/area/nation/whatever massively and been good, efficient and moderately fair rulers.



Mages - hmm this is taking a step back a bit. from your characters opinion you do not know they will not become abominations. unless your character is a mage, IN THEORY your character would probably take the mage-kill option IN THE CONTEXT AND GAME SETTING.



Morrigan - will keep this short as ive looked into this a lot (see 21 page morrigan thread). if you couldnt see from the start that it was a doomed romance you need to examine yourself. by start i mean Flemeth and Lothering. The fact that she is forced by the, even at the start, dubious Flemeth, to join you is a hint. So is her extremely aloof attitude to Alistair and most importantly her highly symbolic placing in the camp by the highly symbolic high-fire.

She never reveals the little girl inside of her. There are times where she ALMOST breaks out of the thought-shell Flemeth has put round her. (")but i do want to...but i dont...but i do...but we must end this for both our sakes!("). Then pushes you away to save herself and her own identity. Not to save your heartbreak. If the world wasnt as it was at the time of the blight (success of amoral characters/world in turmoil/war/people hostile to mages and esp apostates/alistair dislikes her) she may have broken out of this shell.

Moral here really is some people arent for relationships, just random fun. Getting close to someone who is with you for solely selfish reasons is fine as long as you dont get an emotional attachment and take it as far as you know it can go. Wishful thinking hurts. Use her as much as she uses you. Sex and life-save. No love required. Some people are like that and its fine.

[Malificis]

David Gaider wrote...

Interesting thoughts on the themes. If you're interested in another perspective, I believe there's a blog up at Gamasutra on this subject -- HERE.

insanely good. makes me wish id taken a philosophy degree.
As always The Angry One makes the best informed contribution    /sarcasm off. "old wives tell boring tales". hows winnie the poo coming along?

[cdtrk65]

Reiella wrote...

On Harrowmont, I don't think he was actually double dealing, that was just Bhelen trying to frame him.  Harrowmont's downside is being stuck in the old ways and continuing the classist regime that's doing little but to continue to isolate Orzammar.

Yeah, the shaperrate will tell you as much about those papers at the beginning..However despite Bhelen's shrewdness it appears his end objectives arent all that bad, in opposition to Harrowmont's.

Does the end justify the means?

[Azazel005]

Awww, a thread on this here forums that doesn't make me sad!



Thorouroughly enjoyable posts from everyone. I agree with some of those original points made, indeed idealism can be saitated in most cases at very little sacrifice. Something that mechanically can be a problem is the fact that the sacrifice of "time" is not so practical to incorporate.



In particular looking at Redcliffe, if defending the city then assembling the mages to save connor and Isolde meant the Brecallian elves were attacked by darkspawn and routed thus lost or some other equal consequence the gravity of those choices could be felt.



Indeed some of the other choices do also lack a significant "cost" yet that cost may yet to be paid, has saving the mages allowed a potential villian to take form in the future?



I really don't think Morrigan could have been handled any toher way though, it would surely be character inconsistent for her to accept that you are willing to sacrifice your survival? She could never accept that and even if you intend to have Alistair/Loghain kill the Archdemon she could never accept that you could be so certain in their success that it would not come down to your own life. All are risks which would be unacceptable to Morrigan irrespective of what she intends to gain by taking on the "child".

[OfficerDonNZ]

Taleroth wrote...

Reiella wrote...

On Harrowmont, I don't think he was actually double dealing, that was just Bhelen trying to frame him.  Harrowmont's downside is being stuck in the old ways and continuing the classist regime that's doing little but to continue to isolate Orzammar.

I suspected he was framed too, but couldn't see how it is possible.  We actually went to the people the deals were with.  We showed them papers, they got convinced of it on their own.  There had to be something convincing in that paper that left them so damned sure.

However, Bhelen does similar tricks several times, so it's very right to suspect him of foul play.

When you get the papers go have a chat with the head shaper in the shaperte, you'll get an option for him to look at the papers. He spells out in no uncertain terms that they are forigares as he has the orignals in the shaprete You can then go back and confront Bhelen's sceond about it. which is amusing.

[Taleroth]

OfficerDonNZ wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

Reiella wrote...

On Harrowmont, I don't think he was actually double dealing, that was just Bhelen trying to frame him.  Harrowmont's downside is being stuck in the old ways and continuing the classist regime that's doing little but to continue to isolate Orzammar.

I suspected he was framed too, but couldn't see how it is possible.  We actually went to the people the deals were with.  We showed them papers, they got convinced of it on their own.  There had to be something convincing in that paper that left them so damned sure.

However, Bhelen does similar tricks several times, so it's very right to suspect him of foul play.

When you get the papers go have a chat with the head shaper in the shaperte, you'll get an option for him to look at the papers. He spells out in no uncertain terms that they are forigares as he has the orignals in the shaprete You can then go back and confront Bhelen's sceond about it. which is amusing.

I actually did that my latest playthrough.  Confronted him about it.  He's basically "so what?"

F you, buddy, that's what.

[Walina]

@ Taleroth :



Moral of Redcliff > you can save everyone unless you were dumb enough to free Jowan after he poisoned the arl Eamon. I am not that kind, even if he was a friend of pc mage and I hoped he could give me the antidote to save Eamon.



Sacred urne > killing people who try to kill me is not a problem too, that's call selfdefense but a waste of time because arl Eamon tell me to finish gather armies I would've loved to meet earlier Loghain and kill him.



Moral of Circle of mages > you save everyone without making any scacrifice again unless you want to loose your only healer.



Brecilian forest > again, you can save everyone, the archivist was wrong to maintain for so long his curse on humans who didn't do anything wrong till they can't hold it any longer and took actions.



Dawrves > don't was boring to help them choose a new king when just after you found out it was for nothing because you've to go on suicide mission into deep road, greaaat... By the way, you kill a broodmother but that's not important for the story of course golems which were not a threat were more importan.



Denerin > what a joke, queen Anora ask you to help her from no where, how does a queen don't have allies, why asking suddenly a grey warden ? I would've prefered to meet her on my way to the castle than being forced to help her. City elves was okay, at least again you've to save everyone and you can save everyone unless you're a hungry power idiot who accepted the mage tevinter offer.



Landmeet > I don't know how people cannot win the vote of the nobles here, so it's an easy win and Loghain is an easy win too. I don't regret to have killed this bastard after all his done, I saw 0 benefit of his actions during the game which could've made me heisitate. Only Riordan words could've changed my mind if pc wasn't a grey warden.



Morrigan offer > I will be always against it, though I respect people who do accept it but for me it's the only moment where Bioware suddenly decide to put a taste of their dark phantasy. Sorry Bioware, but doing that at the of the game isn't nice at all and now that you clearly said you won't do anything to releive a bit the pain of fans (not me, I choosed my way), I will say this I WILL NEVER AGREE WITH YOU ON THIS POINT and my interest in Alistair character has nothing to do with it. I just hate the idea, survive or live with a shadow in you heart all your life.

Maybe you think, that's a small price to pay to survive, great for you, I prefer to kill myself or kill the person who wanna made this deal unless he tell me his secret. Torturing someone for my surviving, I would glady do if he is the one who want to deal with me, better than sumit myself, yes it's a way to survive too



Denerin last battles > it was really short, theere are like 2 or 3 maps where you can summons your armies, but I found out that they were really weak O_o My compnions taken out most of the ennemies... I regret that I didn't have any option to command the armies too because at archedemon, they were staying in the AoE without trying to avoid it >_<



Archedemon > you know I found the dragon of sacred ashes more agressive maybe because it wasn't staying on place where I can't reach him 50% of the time >.>



Favorite place > the orphenage was for me a taste of what dark phantasy could DAO have been. This place where children were murdered without anyone really caring about, their ghosts and whispers were sad to see. I felt very proud to help the only person who cared about this place, the templar. For the first time, i liked a templar and seeing what good things they can do.



Conclusion > YES, I prefered slaying demons more than anything else in the game because they had all a quest or story relataed to them! Darkspawn are just mobs who you randomly slain. I saw a real threat in demons, because they can manipulate humans and do much more. For me, the game it's not a dark phantasy, it was pretty light till you meet demons on the way who are more viious than darkspawn in my opinion. Darkspawn are random beasts which grew to big over the time, so you've to slain them to avoid being invaded by them. Nothing more nothing else.

[RunCDFirst]

Taleroth wrote...

OfficerDonNZ wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

Reiella wrote...

On Harrowmont, I don't think he was actually double dealing, that was just Bhelen trying to frame him.  Harrowmont's downside is being stuck in the old ways and continuing the classist regime that's doing little but to continue to isolate Orzammar.

I suspected he was framed too, but couldn't see how it is possible.  We actually went to the people the deals were with.  We showed them papers, they got convinced of it on their own.  There had to be something convincing in that paper that left them so damned sure.

However, Bhelen does similar tricks several times, so it's very right to suspect him of foul play.

When you get the papers go have a chat with the head shaper in the shaperte, you'll get an option for him to look at the papers. He spells out in no uncertain terms that they are forigares as he has the orignals in the shaprete You can then go back and confront Bhelen's sceond about it. which is amusing.

I actually did that my latest playthrough.  Confronted him about it.  He's basically "so what?"

F you, buddy, that's what.

Weird, that's exactly what happened in my current playthrough too...
I forget, do you get the opportunity to smash his smug little face at the Assembly?

[Taleroth]

RunCDFirst wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

I actually did that my latest playthrough.  Confronted him about it.  He's basically "so what?"

F you, buddy, that's what.

Weird, that's exactly what happened in my current playthrough too...
I forget, do you get the opportunity to smash his smug little face at the Assembly?

No, but if you go to the palace afterwards and click on him, he becomes hostile.