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[RunCDFirst]

Taleroth wrote...

RunCDFirst wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

I actually did that my latest playthrough.  Confronted him about it.  He's basically "so what?"

F you, buddy, that's what.

Weird, that's exactly what happened in my current playthrough too...
I forget, do you get the opportunity to smash his smug little face at the Assembly?

No, but if you go to the palace afterwards and click on him, he becomes hostile.

Excellent .
I'll have to remember that as I'm poking around for that dragon I somehow missed.

[Ravenshrike]

Taleroth wrote...

I'm going to end this with Morrigan.  A cold hearted witch.  A person who, through friendship or love, you can melt the ice that flows through her veins to show her the little girl that still hides inside.  Only to get kicked right in the cherrypicker by being abandoned at the end regardless.

What is the moral of Morrigan?  *bleep* you, that's what.

Bzzt, wrong. The moral of Morrigan is that love does not conquer all. She has an overriding priority. Moreover, she warns you time and time again that this is a baaaad idea and that you will be hurt if you pursue it. Just because you were too dense to take her at her word, or if your character was one strong enough of will to go look for her after the game anyway, does not mean she randomly kicks you in the cherrypicker.

[RunCDFirst]

Ravenshrike wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

I'm going to end this with Morrigan.  A cold hearted witch.  A person who, through friendship or love, you can melt the ice that flows through her veins to show her the little girl that still hides inside.  Only to get kicked right in the cherrypicker by being abandoned at the end regardless.

What is the moral of Morrigan?  *bleep* you, that's what.

Bzzt, wrong. The moral of Morrigan is that love does not conquer all. She has an overriding priority. Moreover, she warns you time and time again that this is a baaaad idea and that you will be hurt if you pursue it. Just because you were too dense to take her at her word, or if your character was one strong enough of will to go look for her after the game anyway, does not mean she randomly kicks you in the cherrypicker.

I thought the moral of Morrigan is 'Sometimes you screw the girl and sometimes the girl screws you."

[Taritu]

In fact, the mages tower proves the opposite of magic needing regulation. There would have been no mage revolt, no abominations and no demons (and perhaps no blood magic) if the Templars hadn't always been keeping mages under their thumb. Treat people like slaves, and they will act like slaves, including revolting if they can.



As for Redcliffe, the biggest cop-out in the game is letting you take off for days to get the mages and having their be no consequences. I was disgusted when I found out.



The only real dark part of the game Orzammar, both the political machinations, Branka's horrible betrayal of her own people (brood mother, etc...) and the choice between keeping the anvil so dwarves can rebuild their empire or destroying it so more people aren't enslaved.

[RunCDFirst]

Taritu wrote...

In fact, the mages tower proves the opposite of magic needing regulation. There would have been no mage revolt, no abominations and no demons (and perhaps no blood magic) if the Templars hadn't always been keeping mages under their thumb. Treat people like slaves, and they will act like slaves, including revolting if they can.

Or there could have been more blood magic, more demons and more murder had the Templars not curbed the ones that they did. They regulated magic and it still blew up in their face.
Unless... of course... you're one of the few hopeful that believe Morrigan is going to raise the next Andraste and that Flemeth is just a lovely doting woman with a large garden and a soft spot for tea parties.

[Taleroth]

RunCDFirst wrote...

Unless... of course... you're one of the few hopeful that believe Morrigan is going to raise the next Andraste and that Flemeth is just a lovely doting woman with a large garden and a soft spot for tea parties.

[Taritu]

RunCDFirst wrote...

Taritu wrote...

In fact, the mages tower proves the opposite of magic needing regulation. There would have been no mage revolt, no abominations and no demons (and perhaps no blood magic) if the Templars hadn't always been keeping mages under their thumb. Treat people like slaves, and they will act like slaves, including revolting if they can.

Or there could have been more blood magic, more demons and more murder had the Templars not curbed the ones that they did. They regulated magic and it still blew up in their face.
Unless... of course... you're one of the few hopeful that believe Morrigan is going to raise the next Andraste and that Flemeth is just a lovely doting woman with a large garden and a soft spot for tea parties.

I don't know if she'll raise the next Andraste, but I do know it won't be an old God, since I didn't let Alistair sleep with her.

In one of the finales the Dwarves get a mages guild, and absent Templars, no trouble. 

Again, the mage's tower happened because of a revolt against the Templars.  No Templars, no revolt.  They wanted their freedom.  This is explicit in the game.

But I suppose this is a lesson people can't learn in the real world either: put the boot to people, and both you and they become monsters. 

Modifié par Taritu, 01 décembre 2009 - 05:42 .

[VernRyan]

Taritu wrote...
As for Redcliffe, the biggest cop-out in the game is letting you take off for days to get the mages and having their be no consequences. I was disgusted when I found out.

Yeah, I decided I couldnt take the risk.  It was a days ride and the town barely survived the attacks last night, if they came again everything would have been in vain so I ended up saying he must be killed and the mother killed him.

I think one of the strengths of this game is you make your own moral.  You choose your actions and live with the consequences.  You can choose to support Anora / spare Loghain but if you do you lose your oldest ally.

[Roxlimn]

The moral of the game is that killing the Evil Dragon saves the day. Take what you can, give nothing back!

[eschilde]

The moral of the story is Nan's story about the hound in the human noble origin :b

[RunCDFirst]

Taritu wrote...

I don't know if she'll raise the next Andraste, but I do know it won't be an old God, since I didn't let Alistair sleep with her.

In one of the finales the Dwarves get a mages guild, and absent Templars, no trouble. 

Again, the mage's tower happened because of a revolt against the Templars.  No Templars, no revolt.  They wanted their freedom.  This is explicit in the game.

But I suppose this is a lesson people can't learn in the real world either: put the boot to people, and both you and they become monsters. 

Hm, yes, so repressed those mages. You realize they probably won't lose those Harrowing rituals and whatnot. Furthermore, the only mages not brought up in the circle are abominations. It seems, without some amount of control, mages just can't help dabbling in things they shouldn't. From Warden's Keep, Redcliffe Castle to the Korcari Wilds, unwatched mages are just a walking time bomb.

Also, their "repression" beneath the Templar is so incredibly mild. The worst punishment you can get is Tranquility where you're now a member of one of the most influential merchant groups? I think the Alienage wants to have a talk with you about true repression. Heck, Elven mages get more freedoms at the Circle than anywhere else.

[Malsumis]

RunCDFirst wrote...

I thought the moral of Morrigan is 'Sometimes you screw the girl and sometimes the girl screws you."

May I ask how exactly she screws your PC over?

She tells you why she's doing it, what she gets out of it and what's going to happen after it's done.

[FalloutBoy]

The moral of the story is that no matter how good your intentions may be, stuff just doesn't always work out the way you planned. Sometimes it's better to take the coward's way out (heroic sacrifice) than to try to live with all the bad decisions you made along the way.

[Kuravid]

I agree with the story not being as "dark" as its ad campaign claims it to be. I first started playing as a city elf rogue, and the whole instance in regards to Vaughan kidnapping elves in order to have his way with them was, to me, the darkest part of the entire story. I was greatly surprised by how tame the rest of the game turned out to be.



Also, some of the moral choices are a little too ambiguous to the point that you can't possibly know if it's right or wrong. I had this problem with Jowan and the dwarves and the whole hardening bit with Alistair.



As for the moral theme: I don't really think there is one. You can show compassion or vengeance, you can reason or you can fight (sometimes). And you can also just make a bunch of weird decisions that have bizarre, logic conflicting outcomes. In short, I guess, if you try to please everyone, you basically end up pleasing no one and pissing people off. Other than that I, too, would have liked to see a game that offered darker, more difficult choices.



And really, killing Connor was just laziness on my part. However if you play a mage, you don't have to go to the tower, you, Morrigan and Jowan are enough to finish off the demon in the fade.

[Kuravid]

RunCDFirst wrote...

Reiella wrote...

On Harrowmont, I don't think he was actually double dealing, that was just Bhelen trying to frame him.  Harrowmont's downside is being stuck in the old ways and continuing the classist regime that's doing little but to continue to isolate Orzammar.

What's wrong with the caste system?

I think Sten said it best, 'Your peasants want to be merchants, your merchants want to be nobles and your nobles want to be soldiers. No one is satisfied with their place in life.'

I think it's funnier when he makes the comment about how women will only be frustrated if they try to become men. Lots of truth to that one.

[Kuravid]

PatT2 wrote...

Some of the most upright men have failed to be good leaders, and some of the best leaders did not start as upright men. It is, like all the rest of us, for them a journey in which their minds can be changed.

It's often a mistake on the part of people in general to assume that a person can either be good or bad, not both. For example, a former **** general could have been an excellent family man and a loving father while simultaneously being a ****. People, however, don't remember how great of a dad said general was, they just remember that he was a ****.
Or, for example, think of Napoleon---a military genius, completely brilliant mind. Of course he was also an ass, but that doesn't take away from the fact that he was an excellent strategist and leader.
That's just what I think of when I consider Bhelen and Harrowmont. It's not about how good one or the other is, it's about how competent they are. Unfortunately I don't think that's expressed well in game, but I have yet to play the dwarf origin stories so I don't know.

EDIT: For some reason the name of the soldiers under Hitler's army is censored in this forum.

Modifié par Kuravid, 01 décembre 2009 - 07:56 .

[Walina]

FalloutBoy wrote...

The moral of the story is that no matter how good your intentions may be, stuff just doesn't always work out the way you planned. Sometimes it's better to take the coward's way out (heroic sacrifice) than to try to live with all the bad decisions you made along the way.

I wish guard keepers from concentration camp in the world war 2 will have done that, seems easy for them to stay alive and deny the truth

[Arijharn]

In one of the finales the Dwarves get a mages guild, and absent Templars, no trouble. 

Not really, the Chantry is talking about starting a divine march against orzammar for their temerity of 'harbouring apostates' (since if the Chantry isn't in line with it, then the other guys are obviously nefarious). Personally I think the Chantry is a rather handy veiled allusion to the practices of the Catholic Church in the past. (Orzammar also gets threatened if Brother Burkel gets assassinated)

I do however agree with the sentiment that the Templar presence no doubt fueled the frustration of the mages, even if you didn't find the evidence or didn't participate in a conversation with a Blood Mage.

In and of itself though, not all Blood Mages are bad people (Jowan in and of himself when attempting to flee the circle, although the way he drops his phylactery got me thinking if there wasn't an ulterior motive beyond the obvious). Whereas almost all source material (Chantry teachings specifically) trains you otherwise.

[Ulicus]

Yeah, I remember being pretty irritated that there were no consequences for leaving Redcliffe unattended to go and fetch the Circle of Magi. I was expecting to come back to find someone dead, at least.

Malificis wrote...

insanely good. makes me wish id taken a philosophy degree.

I wish I'd saved my money and read Philosophy independently.

[Lotion Soronarr]

It seems to me like people would like choices that can't possibly have a good ending. Which is not really a choice, but more a "s*** you!"



So you can finish most quests in a good way. So what? You have to work hard and oyu have to look for ways to achice that. How many peeople didn't even know there was a third option in Redcliffe, since tehy simply never bothered to try and find it?

Taht's the whole point of being heroic and good.



Frankly, I love the game exactly for this. The choices you get are mostly realistic, and can be dark, grey and white.

[Ulicus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

It seems to me like people would like choices that can't possibly have a good ending. Which is not really a choice, but more a "s*** you!"

So you can finish most quests in a good way. So what? You have to work hard and oyu have to look for ways to achice that. How many peeople didn't even know there was a third option in Redcliffe, since tehy simply never bothered to try and find it?
Taht's the whole point of being heroic and good.

I was aware of the third option and still chose to sacrifice the mother on my first playthrough, because I hadn't even been to the Circle Tower and figured that the risks of leaving Redcliffe unattended with an abomination running about the upper floors of the castle were too great.

It was disappointing to discover, on subsequent playthroughs, that I had been overthinking it. It doesn't ruin the game or anything but it does detract from the difficulty of the "difficult choices".

The issue isn't that there's the option to go to the Circle of Magi and save Connor without blood magic, the issue is that leaving an abomination more-or-less unattended but for a few knights, Teagan and Jowan is pretty reckless and there should be some sort of consequence for that.  Even an offhand reference to the demon managing to kill a couple of the servants while you were gone would have helped.

Sure, it's nice every now and again to get the ending where "Everybody lives"... but those sorts of endings are made all the more special when they're a rarity.

Just ask the Ninth Doctor.

Modifié par Ulicus, 01 décembre 2009 - 12:12 .

[Roxlimn]

You never get to really make any of the darker choices in the game. You get to condone Branka, for instance, but you don't actually get to make the choice she did. You cannot CHOOSE to intentionally create a Broodmother under your control in order to create your own Darkspawn army.

[ShadowKhan]

For those who have the Soldier Peak DLC. That section alludes to a lot of insight that is missing from the other places. Going through that whole story was chilling to think that the wardens in the first blight would do anything to win, from summoning demons to blood magic. Having a choice to let Avernus continue his dark research or to limit what he can do or even kill him. 

One of the themes I see all through the game is power corrupts absolutely. Look at everyone in power and tell me this isn't true.  There are also references throughout the game to the seven deadly sins.

Having Sophia's great great grandson ask me; What they (the first blight wardens) were doing opposing a tyrant king was any different from what I was doing with Loghain really made me stop and think for about 30 seconds.
One of the things I like about this game is it is not black/white.  In the end credits your choices do matter, which explains why I have a fourth character running.

[RunCDFirst]

Malsumis wrote...
May I ask how exactly she screws your PC over?

She tells you why she's doing it, what she gets out of it and what's going to happen after it's done.

If you were in a romance with her, I can't imagine her solution being anything but screwing the PC.

[ShadowKhan]

RunCDFirst wrote...

Malsumis wrote...
May I ask how exactly she screws your PC over?

She tells you why she's doing it, what she gets out of it and what's going to happen after it's done.

If you were in a romance with her, I can't imagine her solution being anything but screwing the PC.

Even though her solution was to save your life? That doesn't sound like your getting screwed over.

I think everyone is missing a big point with Morrigan. She admits to having limited contact with others and being uncomfortable in social situations.  Flemeth even admits Morrigan's social skills are lacking, I believe one of the reasons she sent her with you. Morrigan is very self centered and has her own plan and has had all along as evidenced when she recruited you to kill Flemeth. Fleneth even retorts "What has she told you? So she has you dancing to her tune now?" The first time I killed Flemeth and the second time I let her live...

I think in a DLC or sequel we will see what both of those two are up to or maybe we should.