123 réponses à ce sujet

[Morroian]

noxsachi wrote...

]This, entirely this. I don't really see how the warden is any more play defined than Hawke in any case. I mean you still had a family and the background that entails and even more you're thrust in the Wardens, an organization you might hate (I do). Hawke's motivations are just as complex and varied as the warden's, and in either case my sarcastic **** with a heart of gold mage is by far my favorite character ever. As much as I love Leliana and her romance, I want more Hawke.

As well a big thing is that the Warden's personality felt too much like Sheppard's, in that you are either Space/Fereldon Jesus or an evil bastard. Hawke seems more nuanced and I appreciate that.

Good points, Hawke is his/her own person making his/her way in the world, not part of any organisation/institution, which IMHO is actually why Hawke doesn't have choices in directing the plot. The Warden had the power of the Grey Warden's behind him, Hawke doesn't have that because he/she remains independent. Yet Hawke gets what he/she has because he is still a powerful character. 

[Cutlass Jack]

thurmanator692 wrote...
I can't remember the occasion, but i remember some conversation where a character said something, I thought how I would reply to them, hit the sarcastic spot, and Hawke says what i was thinking to the letter

That occasion was... most of the time I hit a reply past the midpoint of act 1. Except the few times he said something better than what I was thinking. Clever bastage.

[Morroian]

jsteinhauer wrote...

I think it hits the nail on the head when you call it apathy. When you can't create a character or a background and when a voice is thrust upon you, it's no longer role playing. It's conforming and going through motions. 

YOU may not be able to role play but others clearly can, it comes down to what system you prefer. You obviously prefer the silent protagonist and being able to see the full lines before you choose, and thats fine, but don't say that just because you can't get immersed in the DA2 system that role playing is impossible for anyone with it. And you can't create the background for the Warden anyway, you get a choice of 6 preset backgrounds.

[steve3194]

I really love Hawke.Especially witty male,hes got some great lines.The reason I think he's getting so much hate is because he's not the warden.I'd love to see him and the warden back in dragon age 3 that would be so EPIC

[Persephone]

Hate?

I like my sarcastic Lady Hawke much better than my Warden.

Just one example: Leliana going on about how severe my Warden came across and that she should show her softer side more? WTF? Said Warden was a cheerful duster, snarky and not severe at all. So much for ARRRRRRPPPPGGGEEEEEE.

Also, the Champion's story is as "over" as the Warden's is. Can't wait to see what will happen next. In the meantime I'll get super excited over ME3. And probably fall into DAII nerd rage if Thane doesn't make it into ME3.

[LobselVith8]

thurmanator692 wrote...

I really like Hawke. both were very well voiced, and had resonable reactions that adjusted to the players preference. If its because they didn't play a pivotal role in the plot (debateable) events, thats a plot issue, not a Hawke issue.
Y u no like Hawke?

I don't think it's hate for Hawke, but rather the choice to limit his impact on the world around him that bothers people. Hawke isn't permitted to use his wealth and influence to help the people of Darktown, the refugees, or even the elves of the Alienage. Hawke doesn't really do anything but react to the world around him. I think the story would have helped from Hawke had opportunities to shape the world around him. Unfortunately, Kirkwall doesn't change because of Hawke's actions, even when he becomes Champion. It's a linear progression. I think it has more to do with the story limitations than with any distain for the character.

[Zjarcal]

jsteinhauer wrote...

I think it hits the nail on the head when you call it apathy. When you can't create a character or a background and when a voice is thrust upon you, it's no longer role playing. It's conforming and going through motions. 

I have to ask, who says you can't create a background for Hawke?

If you were to compare Hawke to any warden from the different origins, there is no difference in the amount of predefined features or chacterization. The Cousland kid or the Aeducan child are every bit as defined as Hawke is as far as their backgrounds are concerned.

Sure, you had more origins to choose from in DA:O, but comparing each origin to Hawke, there's no difference in how defined each character is.

If you don't want to create a background for your Hawke, that's a different story.

As for the voice, fair enough. Some people don't like the VO, I get that.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 10 avril 2011 - 11:59 .

[jsteinhauer]

Morroian wrote...

YOU may not be able to role play but others clearly can, it comes down to what system you prefer. You obviously prefer the silent protagonist and being able to see the full lines before you choose, and thats fine, but don't say that just because you can't get immersed in the DA2 system that role playing is impossible for anyone with it. And you can't create the background for the Warden anyway, you get a choice of 6 preset backgrounds.

It has nothing to do with full lines of dialog.  That doesn't bother me at all, but many in this forum take issue with it.  But there are other constraints that this game places upon the player that makes it difficult to role play in the classic (old timey) fashion, which perhaps dates me.  A classic western RPG, to me, allows the player to adopt good/neutral//evil and lawful/unlawful/chaotic styles of play.  As the Warden in DAO, I did not feel that I could not play this way, but the story in DA2 rather precludes that, if you want to make the most of the game, because we are forced into this Mage vs. Templar angle with siblings who confound everything.  It's impossible to play lawful-good or other highly specific styles, because the player is forced into conflicts with elements you would not choose to be adversaries with.  This is not the gist of this thread, I know.

I am not game bashing.  I had fun playing this game.  It's not what I hoped for, but that's my problem, not yours.  The OP was wondering why so many had no attachment to Hawke, and I merely reiterated what some had already mentioned.

[Sylvianus]

I suspect a lot of it has to do with the fact that he's not the warden.

Not really. Another charismatic hero could easily replace the love of the warden.

The real reason in my opinion is that Hawke is a clown who misses all, only cares about money and their welfare for him and his family ( that' it ), does nothing to help matters. Forced, only drawn by events. Hawk to me is like a sheep, he works every 3 years. He cares for Kirkwall in appearance, but it did nothing to ease tensions between mages and Templars until it degenerates,  which is totally contrary to my state of mind.

With the warden, you already feel more intelligent and far more capable of changing the world, Or at least influates it according to your vision.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 11 avril 2011 - 12:14 .

[Maria Caliban]

jsteinhauer wrote...

It's impossible to play lawful-good or other highly specific styles, because the player is forced into conflicts with elements you would not choose to be adversaries with.

I'd say that it's just as possible to play lawful good in DA II as in any other BioWare RPG and in most PnP games.

That lawful is sometimes not good and good sometimes not lawful has been a point of contention (and exploration) since DnD made a class that had to be lawful good to retain its powers.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Not hate, but some kind of apathy, especially towards the end. By that point, Hawke felt like a lazy good for nothing.

[Addai]

jsteinhauer wrote...

I think it hits the nail on the head when you call it apathy. When you can't create a character or a background and when a voice is thrust upon you, it's no longer role playing. It's conforming and going through motions. Hawke and Shepard should not be compared. Shepard is an action hero in a game with RPG elements. DA is supposed to be a real RPG.
 

Ironically, you can set Shepard's background whereas you can't with Hawke, so ME is more customizable than DA2.

Both Shepard and Hawke are dull, IMO.

[Addai]

Zjarcal wrote...
I have to ask, who says you can't create a background for Hawke?

If you were to compare Hawke to any warden from the different origins, there is no difference in the amount of predefined features or chacterization. The Cousland kid or the Aeducan child are every bit as defined as Hawke is as far as their backgrounds are concerned.

Sure, you had more origins to choose from in DA:O, but comparing each origin to Hawke, there's no difference in how defined each character is.

I think that's the crux.  You had multiple flexiblity times six, versus being limited to one and one that's not especially fleshd out or compelling.

[Zjarcal]

Addai67 wrote...
I think that's the crux.  You had multiple flexiblity times six, versus being limited to one and one that's not especially fleshd out or compelling.

And I certainly understand that most people don't like the lack of origins (hell, I wouldn't have complained if more origins were available).

But my point was more about comparing Hawke to any specific warden from any origin. There really isn't much difference in how predefined they are.

Now if people don't find Hawke's origin (or their role in the game) compelling, that's a different story, and one I can't argue with as I don't tell people what they should or shouldn't like.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Zjarcal wrote...
But my point was more about comparing Hawke to any specific warden from any origin. There really isn't much difference in how predefined they are.

I think a major difference is that in Origins, you can interact with your "origin" and it isn't straight into combat. In this introduction, there are ways to define and refine your character in that Origin itself (and out). In DA2, you immediately start with the action. 

Now one could argue that since Hawke's family is present throughout the game, that his / her "origin" follows around. However I personally prefer the intricacies of say the Dwarf Noble Origin and the many things one can do / say that defines the character, in realtion with his family and society. 

[RPGrogue]

I like Hawke a lot.
I hope they finish up his story in DLC/Expansion, if not I want him back in DA3

Edit was to add:

Also people are upset that we get no origins story in DA2, I just made up his origin myself and came up with reasons he did the things he did much more fun IMO

Modifié par RPGrogue, 11 avril 2011 - 12:43 .

[Zjarcal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I think a major difference is that in Origins, you can interact with your "origin" and it isn't straight into combat. In this introduction, there are ways to define and refine your character in that Origin itself (and out). In DA2, you immediately start with the action. 

Oh, believe me, I would've loved to have a chance to spend some time in Lothering with the family prior to escaping. Perhaps having a bigger say in whether Bethany or Carver are friends or rivals for instance. I would've liked that a lot.

But it's not like one can't create a full background in their mind about the personality their Hawke will have or the events that led to them becoming that person. I mean, for instance, you RP Arcturus as having an admiration for Loghain (something I do for Dana as well), and that's not something the HN origin really lets you define. The same kind of thing can be done for Hawke's "origin" if one desires to.

Which is the point I'm trying to argue against, that you "can't create a background for your character".

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Now one could argue that since Hawke's family is present throughout the game, that his / her "origin" follows around. However I personally prefer the intricacies of say the Dwarf Noble Origin and the many things one can do / say that defines the character, in realtion with his family and society. 

No arguments there, after all that's personal preference, and I agree to a point.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 11 avril 2011 - 12:42 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Zjarcal wrote...
But it's not like one can't create a full background in their mind about the personality their Hawke will have or the events that led to them becoming that person. I mean, for instance, you RP Arcturus as having an admiration for Loghain (something I do for Dana as well), and that's not something the HN origin really lets you define. The same kind of thing can be done for Hawke's "origin" if one desires to.

Yes, but the HN origin gives me an opportunity to define his personality in the origin itself as well vis a vis the tutor, relation with family / dog, nany, opinion about Wardens, Howe...etc. And I find HN to be weaker than DN in that regard.

But yea, one could imagine an entire backstory with Hawke entirely in one's head, but I feel that the introduction would have been stronger if it started out in Lothering. Gives it more grounding, for the lack of a better way to explain it.

[Cyclone Prime]

I Loved Hawke!! BUT I'd rather we finish his story thru DLC than a full game. My Wardens main tale is done, but I'd love for him to be involved in DA3. Id rather have A new protaganist thats as customizable as The Warden and have him experienc the Cluster F*** of Thedas, that Hawke and the Warden created

[Cyclone Prime]

I Loved Hawke!! BUT I'd rather we finish his story thru DLC than a full game. My Wardens main tale is done, but I'd love for him to be involved in DA3. Id rather have A new protaganist thats as customizable as The Warden and have him experienc the Cluster F*** of Thedas, that Hawke and the Warden created

[Lord_Valandil]

Not hate. Apathy.

[Zjarcal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
But yea, one could imagine an entire backstory with Hawke entirely in one's head, but I feel that the introduction would have been stronger if it started out in Lothering. Gives it more grounding, for the lack of a better way to explain it.

Again, agreed on that point. If I wanted to be a cynic I'd say they saved that for a DLC... 

And for the sake of saying it in the thread, I do love my Hawke. Every bit as much as I love my warden. Then again, it's easy for me to get attached to my characters if the companions are compelling. I like the bonds that are created. 

Modifié par Zjarcal, 11 avril 2011 - 12:53 .

[Sylvianus]

Even if I did not like Hawke in DA2, it does not stop me from wanting it to appear in DA3.

As long as they enhance the story, its unfolding, and how the hero gets involved in the story ...

[Zjarcal]

thurmanator692 wrote...
I take it you're a Merrill fan?

I wonder if that big siggie gave it away...