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[KnightofPhoenix]

Morroian wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

There was a lot Hawke could have done to apply pressure on Meredith, or even support her, without needing to be part of the official power structure (Technically Meredith is not part of Kirkwall's either). He doesn't have to be succesful, but at least make him active.

He could support the nobles who were plotting against Meredith in Act 3, nothing came of that beyond a few fights because the writers didn't pursue it. There were moments when Hawke could explore becoming Viscount but got shot down in flames because he explicitly needed the support of the templars. He tried to prompt Elthina into acting, tried personally to play peacemaker between Meredith and Orsino.

Meredith was weakening by the moment, even amongst Templars (and we see Cullen being suspicious of her from Act 2 and Thrask acting behind her back). Hawke could have rallied an opposition front against her and he had 3 years to do it. Asking about something once and being told "no" doesn't qualify as being active.  Or supporting nobles in one sidequest is also not that active, when Hawke had the chance of doing that (and more) for 3 years and on a more organized basis.

Of course the reason is simple. The writers wanted to force the conclusion and obviously Hawke could not prevent it no matter what. That's fine. But what they ended up doing was making Hawke look useless and lazy, whose sole purpose is to just kill. Imo at least.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 11 avril 2011 - 01:57 .

[Vexia2070]

I will not compare the two - Similar and different no problems there.
As for voice, well I like it *Sort of * First I'm just happy to have one at all.

Now, if we could have chosen the pitch and timber - with a slider - say, like skin tone...that would have made it a much more personal PC. I know the tech ability exists.

In a far more perfect universe the developers should have hired a few more voice actors for the rolls of both hawks, THAT along with pitch and timber control would have REALLY given us the voice we could feel was our own.

Potentially Hawk - unhindered by being a warden - Could in the next game (assuming there will be one) be a devastating world changer.

Save the Chantry? (not in my universe) Take down the Imperium and end the slave trade? Take down the Divine? (fun) Dismantle a whole very corrupt dysfunctional world.

Now that would be epic.
As would rebuilding it.

I love the Qunari. The idea of shaking up their whole system and world view, or bringing all the Tal-vasshoth (sp) together under a banner of true freedom and offering a purpose such as bringing down the Imperium and slavery?!.....Maybe just me, but Hawke's ultimate story could be amazing.

Just my 2cents
Vexia

[axl99]

It was explicitly mentioned that Meredith was the real authority behind Kirkwall even in Act 1. There was nothing the previous Viscount could do either other than hold keep the city from falling apart.

Hawke more or less played by the "rules" in Kirkwall in navigating its messy and hostile social environment. Meredith and Orsino ultimately stopped playing along the roles prescribed to them and stepped over their boundaries in The Final Straw.

I think Hawke would've been happier to see Meredith and Orsino destroy each other as we know their motives and agendas didn't extend to those who weren't directly involved in the conflict. But the social infrastructure is so dependent on maintaining the status quo it just became a huge train-wreck.

And really, there's not much a bunch of nobles and commoners can do against well-conditioned templars and trained mages.

[Morroian]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Meredith was weakening by the moment, even amongst Templars (and we see Cullen being suspicious of her from Act 2 and Thrask acting behind her back). Hawke could have rallied an opposition front against her and he had 3 years to do it. Asking about something once and being told "no" doesn't qualify as being active.  Or supporting nobles in one sidequest is also not that active, when Hawke had the chance of doing that (and more) for 3 years and on a more organized basis.

I think we were seeing the realisation of that in Act 3 when Anders short circuited the whole process.

[KnightofPhoenix]

axl99 wrote...

It was explicitly mentioned that Meredith was the real authority behind Kirkwall even in Act 1. There was nothing the previous Viscount could do either other than hold keep the city from falling apart.

And really, there's not much a bunch of nobles and commoners can do against well-conditioned templars and trained mages.

Meredith's authority was evidently waining after Act 2.

Hawke could have rallied the nobility, commoners and Aveline's guards, and possibly even Templars like Thrask who we know existed since Act 2. And mages if Hawke wanted to.

That would have been enough to pose a substantial challenge to Meredith, who is clearly losing her grip and over-extending herself (because it turns out she is insane).

[Phantom13NWN2]

 Because Hawke is not us, like the warden, he is someone else, we have no control over what hes gonna say.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Morroian wrote...
I think we were seeing the realisation of that in Act 3 when Anders short circuited the whole process.

But I didn't feel HAwke was part of the process other than being an observor. And a confused and manipulated one at that.

[In Exile]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

But I didn't feel HAwke was part of the process other than being an observor. And a confused and manipulated one at that.

That was supposed to be the shock of DA2 (at least for Cassandra). The Seekers expected that Hawke engineered the entire thing. Except... not.

[greyman33]

It's been said in this thread more than once already, but for the record (such as it is), I don't think there's a lot of Hawke hate per-se.

Personally, I think the character was well done for what it was, I just never really felt any connection with it. So, I'm left with a character I don't have any real feelings for one way or the other who's 'story' already seems to be over.
I don't have much desire to find out anything more about this character's life. Nothing personal against Hawke, I would just rather see somebody else's story told, or better yet, be able to have a little more freedom in the future to tell my own story in this world.

[Foolsfolly]

I liked Hawke fine. Hawke isn't a hero, doesn't really change anything. He's a weird in-between. He's nothing like a normal Joe character since normal Joes cannot kill High Dragons or stand toe-to-tow with the Arishok and win. But Hawke isn't really an epic hero, either. Hawke doesn't fight and win the day, or save the Kingdom, or anything.

The closest Hawke gets to being a hero is the Act 2 finale but since the Templars are the largest standing force in Kirkwall and they had made their way to the Keep I assume they could take out the fifty or so Qunari inside....maybe not save the nobles but who knows?

I have no idea what Flemeth saw in Hawke, the whole leap thing either hasn't happened yet, or it happens at the end of the game....and instead of taking charge of Kirkwall (which is now completely leaderless) Hawke runs away. So Hawke kinda missed the point where the whole world could change.

But that's my wishful way of looking at that ending.

But I don't dislike Hawke because of that.

[Wye]

Hawkke was a more likeable character for me. He actually voiced his thoughts as opposed to the Warden, who replied as though with "telepathy."

[KyleOrdrum]

I didn't hate Hawke at all. I rather liked Hawke, in the same way I liked Cecil in Final Fantasy 4, or Aragorn in LotR. That is to say Hawke is a well written character who is ultimately pre-determined. While many will argue this, due to the dialogue wheel and illusion of choices, allow me to make a few points.

It didn't matter if I helped Anders or not, he still blew up the chantry, and I was never allowed to stop him. It didn't matter if I sided with the templars or mages, I still had to fight both Orsino and Meredith. It didn't matter if I dueled the Arishok or took him and his men, I was still "The Champion." It didn't matter what I did in regards to the deep roads, my brother/sister still left the party. It didn't matter if I was a mage or not, I was still getting hounded by the templars. It didn't matter what I said to the Viscount, I was still a trusted advisor. It didn't matter if I would've killed Petrice where she stood after the events with Ketojan, she calmly walks away without me being able to make a move.

Sorry, I got a little carried away there. The point is though, the story played out the same way, no matter what I did. This isn't an rpg. This is an action/adventure game like the Metal Gear series or grand theft auto. That being said, I really liked Hawke as a pre-defined character, I merely expected more choice from the guys who gave me DA:O and KotoR.

[Vexia2070]

I think Hawke is a hero or villain in the making here.
Doing the best he or she can to survive, care for (or not) family and friends as events go down hill all around. Until pushed to the point of no return.
Flemmeth has obviously seen what Hawke cannot and we don't know.

All around I found Hawke likeable, (not that I don't have issues with the game itself.)
Hawke, though capable, is having both greatness and blame trust upon him/her.

classic Passage of the Hero stuff - and no forced "here drink poison-be a hero like it or not." Hawke's evolution feels much more natural. And after the ending as it stands in game, I think Hawke would leave to sort things out. Maybe even in disgust...at anyrate, rather like thinking about it.

[Tainan7509]

"Hate" is a strong word to put in. Anyway, i like female Hawke and ok with make Hawke (talking about voice here)

[Riot Brown]

I like both versions of Hawke. On Second play though making completely different decisions with a different gender. Besides, there is alone so much wiggle room for someone who will become the "Champion".

[tausra]

I'm apathetic towards Hawke. The character was completely impotent.

Any sane person knew that Sister Petrice was going to keep causing chaos, yet Hawke lets her walk away. Hawke can tell Anders is losing control, he's filled the mansion's library with copies of his manifesto, he nearly kills an innocent mage, yet Hawke doesn't even so much as bat an eyelash. Hawke becomes the Champion of Kirkwall, presumably with some political clout, yet when he picks a side nothing happens. Hawke becomes the Champion of Kirkwall yet can't even visit his/her family in the gallows. Like a Toddler in a crib all Hawke can do is watch and react to things done to him/her.

[Sabariel]

Man and Lady Hawke's voices both have their ups and downs for me.

As for Hawke him/herself? I like my Miserable Bastard Hawke... and that's about it I haven't really connected to any of my Hawkes the way I did to most of my Wardens. I like my MBH, but I'm not connected. Same deal with (most of) my companions: liked, but not connected.

[shumworld]

I look at Hawke the same way I look at Shepard, the Warden and many other CCs. He/She is what you make of him/her.

So imo Hawke is awesome, because I made him/her to be. It's just the story their in needs some polish and expansion.

[Nashiktal]

My opinion of Hawke will be decided if he is featured in another game, where hopefully he will fully "mature" into a hero, or great person he was built up to be.

Right now his story feels disjointed, and unfinished. Leaving the player a sort of... "that's it?" when it comes to the end of the story.

[Anglofsffrng]

I actually really like the Hawke character. I think the point of this game was that, in the end, Hawke ended up being more of a symbol behind massive social change, rather than this lone hero that made change single handedly. I would hope that in the DLC we get to see what, exactly, that change is. This is my one potential deal killer in DA2, the ending to Hawkes story. I felt like the game ended 1-3 hours early. It just seemed to stop right before the real climax. It was not unlike Halo 2 to me.

[In Exile]

Foolsfolly wrote...

I liked Hawke fine. Hawke isn't a hero, doesn't really change anything. He's a weird in-between. He's nothing like a normal Joe character since normal Joes cannot kill High Dragons or stand toe-to-tow with the Arishok and win. But Hawke isn't really an epic hero, either. Hawke doesn't fight and win the day, or save the Kingdom, or anything.

I think Hawke is a talented person caught up in living his life. That's it. Like a capable doctor, lawyer or engineer. Someone who achieves a lot, can do impressive things, has a meaningful life... and yet also happens to be caught up in this political drama through (what really amounts to) a series of coincidences.

I have no idea what Flemeth saw in Hawke, the whole leap thing either hasn't happened yet, or it happens at the end of the game....and instead of taking charge of Kirkwall (which is now completely leaderless) Hawke runs away. So Hawke kinda missed the point where the whole world could change.

But that's my wishful way of looking at that ending.

But I don't dislike Hawke because of that.

I think Hawke's story is about accepting a harsh destiny. That's it. The blight, the deep roads, the death of his mother, the arishok and the potential genocide of the mages... Hawke can't change the tide, so he has to throw himself in it.

[Wompoo]

Hawke >>> then Warden by a country mile, for me anyway. Merrill and Varric most enjoyable companions in the series by far. Poor Hawke just gets caught up in the machinations of 2 opposing powers (although the Circle is a crime and Templars are nothing but glorified junkies, zealots and gaolers controlled by an oppressive drug pushing Chantry imo no better then the Imperium). In the end I do what I do to protect a city (myself, friends and family) that a gutless city leader and ostrich like Head Cleric created via policies of appeasement and blind pointless faith.

[theauthority]

My opinion is that Hawke, as a character, is weakened by the fact that he/she can't do nothing to change events in Kirkwall or Thedas. They happen, Hawke fixes.
It's like Varric is telling the story of all NPCs who made Hawke a lucky mofo that snatched riches, titles and a critical role from out of the blue. It's not a "rags to riches" kind of tale, is more about sheer luck - whereas the Warden actually struggles to achieve the greater good, Hawke is a pawn, nothing more.
Perhaps the tight - rushed? - release schedule has taken its toll on the final game, depriving the player of a deeper involvement (technical issues aside).
Hawke's story would look great on a novel, just not as cool when you're supposed to play a videogame. I still like the game, mind you, it ain't perfect by a long shot or as good as Origins, but I find it enjoyable enough.  
Otherwise, the three personalities are well written, I grew attached to all of my Hawkes exactly because they aren't the Warden. I prefer female Hawke but that's just personal taste.
Too bad his/her family isn't very developed (again, time restraints?), that would have helped deepen Hawke's personality. Yet, as a non-Warden character, he/she's good enough to earn the main character role. Now, if only Hawke could also be the main focus of the story...