58 réponses à ce sujet

[Darkhour]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

If the theory that giant spiders are actually possessed by demons / spirits is true, then it is possible for them to possess regular humans, I assume.

But that same codex says that this theory is contested and some scholars argue that it's the "radiation" of thin veils that transforms those creatures.

They can posses non-mages, but they would have no power. They'd just be bad people... like all the other ninjas in Kirkwall. Demons want mages so that they can maintain their power in the physical realm.

[Hhoal]

Darkhour wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

If the theory that giant spiders are actually possessed by demons / spirits is true, then it is possible for them to possess regular humans, I assume.

But that same codex says that this theory is contested and some scholars argue that it's the "radiation" of thin veils that transforms those creatures.

They can posses non-mages, but they would have no power. They'd just be bad people... like all the other ninjas in Kirkwall. Demons want mages so that they can maintain their power in the physical realm.

This is close to an answer to my question. If a demon possesses a mage then they also get all these crazy powers, whereas if they possess an antique dealer all they can do is raise prices and try selling Andraste's undergarments, complete with certificate of authentication.

Still, does it bother you that there is a clear prejudice and that even Hawke is more deserving of hatred than most of the mages. The mages seem to only turn to blood-magic or demons when they are actually attacked, and in that case, considering how many mages Hawke's killed, they probably should go to the last resort, otherwise they don't have a chance. Just sayin'.

Modifié par Hhoal, 11 avril 2011 - 02:59 .

[Darkhour]

Hhoal wrote...

Darkhour wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

If the theory that giant spiders are actually possessed by demons / spirits is true, then it is possible for them to possess regular humans, I assume.

But that same codex says that this theory is contested and some scholars argue that it's the "radiation" of thin veils that transforms those creatures.

They can posses non-mages, but they would have no power. They'd just be bad people... like all the other ninjas in Kirkwall. Demons want mages so that they can maintain their power in the physical realm.

This is close to an answer to my question. If a demon possesses a mage then they also get all these crazy powers, whereas if they possess an antique dealer all they can do is raise prices and try selling Andraste's undergarments, complete with certificate of authentication.

Still, does it bother you that there is a clear prejudice and that even Hawke is more deserving of hatred than most of the mages. The mages seem to only turn to blood-magic or demons when they are actually attacked, and in that case, considering how many mages Hawke's killed, they probably should go to the last resort, otherwise they don't have a chance. Just sayin'.

Yes and (possibly) no.

I think it is either a failure of the writters or designers or programmers or whoever, but abominations simply don't strike me as a great threat. You'd think abomination equals demi-god, but that clearly isn't the case outside of fantastic stories of entire units of templars being killed by a single abomination. Other problems are that a dead mage seems more damgerous than a live one. The living tumor faced abominations are less threatening than the Arcane Horrors or Reverents, which are possessed corpses. The implimentation is just all backwards in-game which makes it hard to identify with Templars.

Mages are a minority. After 911 arabs were racial profiled. Are there muslims of other races. Sure, but it's easier and more economical to focus on a minority to alleviate public fears. And not to mention that mages give the chantry a reason to maintain a military force and have a visible purpose. If all they did was nag people about singing the chant of light they wouldn't have as much power as they do. They need to promote this idea of DOOM if the mages get out of hand and that only they can stop it.

[Hhoal]

Darkhour wrote...

Yes and (possibly) no.

I think it is either a failure of the writters or designers or programmers or whoever, but abominations simply don't strike me as a great threat. You'd think abomination equals demi-god, but that clearly isn't the case outside of fantastic stories of entire units of templars being killed by a single abomination. Other problems are that a dead mage seems more damgerous than a live one. The living tumor faced abominations are less threatening than the Arcane Horrors or Reverents, which are possessed corpses. The implimentation is just all backwards in-game which makes it hard to identify with Templars.

Mages are a minority. After 911 arabs were racial profiled. Are there muslims of other races. Sure, but it's easier and more economical to focus on a minority to alleviate public fears. And not to mention that mages give the chantry a reason to maintain a military force and have a visible purpose. If all they did was nag people about singing the chant of light they wouldn't have as much power as they do. They need to promote this idea of DOOM if the mages get out of hand and that only they can stop it.

Nice point. I think the writers(sorry guys) did themselves a disservice by making so many mages abominations. Who cares now? As long as I hit them with a few lightening bolts, and a fire bomb or two they're dead. Dead dead dead, never to abominate ever again. As long as you have some basic combat skills you shouldn't have anything to worry about.
So REALLY we should just take care of the whole problem by letting all mages become abominations, then killing them all and taking care of two birds with one stone... Or maybe that's genocide. These lines get blurred so easily.

Back to my point, it's so easy for any mage to become an abomination(seems like whenever things get tough they're open for business) that it should be common place by now.

[Mnemnosyne]

Maria Caliban wrote...

She was already on the mortal side but wasn't strong enough to survive outside of the place she was summoned. That's why she wanted the girl.

She was strong enough to survive.  She wanted the girl because she 'liked' her, which was really a rather stupid position to take - she seriously underestimates the Warden's ability and forces a confrontation even if the Warden is willing to let her go free and possess someone/something other than this particular girl.

As to the OP, there's two things to consider.  One: We're playing The Protagonist.  The Protagonist is always going to be vastly more powerful than everyone else in the world.  You can't really take 'how do they fare against The Protagonist' to be a reasonable measure of their power.

The other thing to consider is that DA2 really doesn't portray mages the way they should be, mechanically.  See, in DA:O, Mages were far and away the most powerful character class.  You could get through the entire game as a mage with little trouble once you got a handful of the right spells, even if you didn't bring any party members at all, on Nightmare, while in DA2 mages are actually much weaker than other classes.  We can blame this on game mechanics and the fact that a lot of people cried about mages being 'overpowered' in DA:O, so they basically nerfed the crap out of mages in DA2.  All spells were given ludicrously long cooldowns, chances of status effects like freezing went way down, resistances to those status effects went through the roof, and the sizes of AOE spells were cut way down.  Not to mention total spell selection was cut way down, with lots of spells disappearing entirely.

Story-wise though, mages are really meant to be more along the lines of power that we saw playing DA:O - vastly more powerful than any other class.  So don't take game mechanics to be an absolute measure of how powerful a certain class is meant to be story-wise, because it doesn't really work in DA2.

[Darkhour]

Koyasha wrote...

Story-wise though, mages are really meant to be more along the lines of power that we saw playing DA:O - vastly more powerful than any other class.  So don't take game mechanics to be an absolute measure of how powerful a certain class is meant to be story-wise, because it doesn't really work in DA2.

The games is what we play. You can't tell me mages are powerful and expect me to believe it when they clearly are not, The mechanics and the story are intertwined. That's like saying dinosaurs should be taken as a serious threat in Jurassic Park because story-wise they are ruthless killing machines, but in the movie they are all 1 ft tall with no teeth or claws. Gameplay always trumps lore when it comes to how the player experiences the game/story.

[GabranthSG]

For Lady Harimann, didn't her daughter Flora mention that she is not a mage? She carried a staff, but I always killed her so fast that I never noticed if she used any magic.

[Anarcala]

Nice point. I think the writers(sorry guys) did themselves a disservice by making so many mages abominations. Who cares now? As long as I hit them with a few lightening bolts, and a fire bomb or two they're dead. Dead dead dead, never to abominate ever again. As long as you have some basic combat skills you shouldn't have anything to worry about.

You hit the nail on the head here. Are demons so stupid that they'll take any chance they get to arrive on the mortal plane? The demons on DA:O had more sense...just look at Uldred.

The games is what we play. You can't tell me mages are powerful and expect me to believe it when they clearly are not, The mechanics and the story are intertwined. That's like saying dinosaurs should be taken as a serious threat in Jurassic Park because story-wise they are ruthless killing machines, but in the movie they are all 1 ft tall with no teeth or claws. Gameplay always trumps lore when it comes to how the player experiences the game/story.

This is where I have the biggest problem. DA2 contradicts itself between gameplay and lore; Mages can't teleport, but uh, wait, that one just did. You actually have to use your imagination and pretend half this crap didn't happen if you want to get a cohesive story.

On the OP...mages ARE dangerous. Saying their not is just stupid. However that doesn't mean everyone else plays the role of helpless puppy. Human beings have the potential to create enormously destructive forces. The only difference between a mage, and a normal person, is that a mage can do it at a very early age with relatively little effort. They MUST be trained in how to use the skills they were given, for survival if nothing else.

But this should not mean ripping them from their family units, and locking them away from the rest of the world. This damages everyone involved, and makes people like Anders & Meredith a certainty rather than just a possibility.

[wowpwnslol]

There is one annoying thing called "game balance", which tends to trump lore. If mages were as powerful as they are described in lore and abominations were demi gods, which could wipe out entire cities, the game would be a mess.

That is why things are the way they are. Gameplay and balance reasons. I thought things like that would be obvious.

[Dean_the_Young]

Hhoal wrote...

You don't have to be a mage to be dangerous. Why is there so much focus on the mages then? Is it because they are an easy target for hatred and oppression? Just as it's easy to determine black vs. white and male vs. female, is this just another group of people or minority that the status quo can hate?
Thoughts?

Because you do have to be a mage to be as dangerous to the public as a mage. For all that there are especially talented people who are capable of beating individual mages, those same people would be even more powerful if they were mages, and more dangerous as a whole besides.

[Rockpopple]

I dunno... abominations are pretty tough in this game. I can see regular folks/guards/knights having a difficult time with even 1 of them.

[Aldandil]

wowpwnslol wrote...

There is one annoying thing called "game balance", which tends to trump lore. If mages were as powerful as they are described in lore and abominations were demi gods, which could wipe out entire cities, the game would be a mess.

That is why things are the way they are. Gameplay and balance reasons. I thought things like that would be obvious.

I'm adding my voice to this. It's fair to think that gameplay SHOULD be a part of the story (I think it would be preferable), but it clearly isn't the case in either DA:O or DA2.

[SleepyPerson]

Anarcala wrote...

But this should not mean ripping them from their family units, and locking them away from the rest of the world. This damages everyone involved, and makes people like Anders & Meredith a certainty rather than just a possibility.

That is one of the reasons I side with mages. In both games, every mage who turned to blood magic or became abominations was because they were escaping the circle and/or rebelling against the templars.
Bethany, the one mage we see who got to experience 18 years of her life with her family and away from the circle, is one of the only mages who's not isane.
Also there is Morrigan who has a very strong will and was raised not to give up easily. Even though she is kind of evil, she can easily resist demons. Many of the mages we see give up quickly when faced with danger and seek help from demons. If they were all raised to have a strong will, more confidence and determination, there would probably be less abominations. I don't see how being taken away from their families and being abused by the few stupid templars can help their self-esteem.

Modifié par TricksterPuppet, 11 avril 2011 - 02:36 .

[Dean_the_Young]

How was Connor rebelling against the Templars?

Connor, who even untrained wiped out a major settlement on his lonesome, reacted to an entirely different feud that was entirely separated from the Templar order or oppression. He embraced the demons to safe family from sickness... something that's hardly going to go away without the Templars.

[Rifneno]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

How was Connor rebelling against the Templars?

Connor, who even untrained wiped out a major settlement on his lonesome, reacted to an entirely different feud that was entirely separated from the Templar order or oppression. He embraced the demons to safe family from sickness... something that's hardly going to go away without the Templars.

And why was he untrained?  That's right, because his mother didn't want to lose her child (like every parent) and because the templars kidnap and imprison all mages they find, she had to try and find an untrustworthy apostate who couldn't teach the kid how to tie his damn shoes.

Clearly mages need training.  Clearly they need to be policed.  Not by the Chantry though.

[SleepyPerson]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

How was Connor rebelling against the Templars?

Connor, who even untrained wiped out a major settlement on his lonesome, reacted to an entirely different feud that was entirely separated from the Templar order or oppression. He embraced the demons to safe family from sickness... something that's hardly going to go away without the Templars.

Well I think there should be a circle of magi, where mages can go for help and come and go as they pleased. They do need training but they should also be allowed to be with their family. I just find the chantry goes to far.
I would prefer if it was something like school, where they go during the day and go home in the evening.
Isolde didn't want to send her son to the circle because she knew she wouldn't get to see him whenever she pleased. She was also scared because of the prejudism the chantry has about mages.

[Rockpopple]

Maybe they should allow visits.

It could be like a Boarding School.... that you never ever leave. Sounds a bit like hell, but it wouldn't be completely unbearable if your family could visit regularly.

[Darkhour]

wowpwnslol wrote...

There is one annoying thing called "game balance", which tends to trump lore. If mages were as powerful as they are described in lore and abominations were demi gods, which could wipe out entire cities, the game would be a mess.

That is why things are the way they are. Gameplay and balance reasons. I thought things like that would be obvious.

There is no "balance" in a single player game. Mages were fine just they way they were in DA:O.

Abominations should be rare boss creatures, not dime a dozen fodder. In most cases they simply appear out of the ground as if they were regular demons anyway so why not just make those encounters against... ta-da! regular demons?

[The Baconer]

Darkhour wrote...
 In most cases they simply appear out of the ground as if they were regular demons anyway so why not just make those encounters against... ta-da! regular demons?

I know right? Wilmod's fight especially makes no sense. The guy turns into... A shade that summons abominations? Shouldn't it be the other way around?

[Dean_the_Young]

Rifneno wrote...

And why was he untrained?  That's right, because his mother didn't want to lose her child (like every parent) and because the templars kidnap and imprison all mages they find, she had to try and find an untrustworthy apostate who couldn't teach the kid how to tie his damn shoes.

It's hardly kidnapping, and you're missing the point. Mages don't go to mages for freedom from Templars in particular, mages go to demons for any number of reasons. Reasons that would have nothing to do with the Templars.

Connor didn't make a deal because he was untrained: not even a trained mage could have cured his father. Connor made a deal because a demon offered him something he couldn't do regardless. Would Connor have made the same decision had he been trained? Maybe, maybe not, but plenty of people have made deals for less than the safety of a loved one. Connor wasn't turned because he was untrained, but rather because he made a pact and offered himself.

What Connor illustrates isn't the necessity of training, but rather the entirely separate basis and impetus for seeking deals with demons. Love for a dying familiy member, anger at being spurned, desire for power. There is no 'no one would make deals with demons if it weren't for the templars': demon-dealing long predated the Templars, and the reasons for it would still exist with the complete and utter destruction of the order.

The root of the problem in making deals with demons isn't freedom or oppression. It's the want for more. More power, more wealth, more anything the person wants. These exist separate from the Templars, even if the Templars themselves become the focus.

Clearly mages need training.  Clearly they need to be policed.  Not by the Chantry though.

You'll blame whoever does it for what they do (policing), not who they are.

[Hhoal]

TricksterPuppet wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

How was Connor rebelling against the Templars?

Connor, who even untrained wiped out a major settlement on his lonesome, reacted to an entirely different feud that was entirely separated from the Templar order or oppression. He embraced the demons to safe family from sickness... something that's hardly going to go away without the Templars.

Well I think there should be a circle of magi, where mages can go for help and come and go as they pleased. They do need training but they should also be allowed to be with their family. I just find the chantry goes to far.
I would prefer if it was something like school, where they go during the day and go home in the evening.
Isolde didn't want to send her son to the circle because she knew she wouldn't get to see him whenever she pleased. She was also scared because of the prejudism the chantry has about mages.

There should also be a way to police the mages when they are under 18 when not in school. And we should call this school Hogwarts.

darkhour wrote...

There is no "balance" in a single player game. Mages were fine just they way they were in DA:O.

Abominations
should be rare boss creatures, not dime a dozen fodder. In most cases
they simply appear out of the ground as if they were regular demons
anyway so why not just make those encounters against... ta-da! regular
demons?

Absolutely. An abomination should be as difficult, if not more, than an orc. Dare I say, I should even have diffculty and have to heal or possibly revive fallen companions while fighting them. It just makes sense. I want Hawke to have a hard time with these things, so that maybe she'd actually consider them a real threat and consider the templar's fears and accusations valid.

Along the lines of game mechanics and player experience, in the final show down in DA:O there were, what, 8 mages available to fight and something like 20-50 of all the other options besides golems. Gone are the days when 8 mages would be a force to be reckoned with.

Modifié par Hhoal, 11 avril 2011 - 05:03 .

[Dean_the_Young]

TricksterPuppet wrote...

Well I think there should be a circle of magi, where mages can go for help and come and go as they pleased. They do need training but they should also be allowed to be with their family. I just find the chantry goes to far.
I would prefer if it was something like school, where they go during the day and go home in the evening.
Isolde didn't want to send her son to the circle because she knew she wouldn't get to see him whenever she pleased. She was also scared because of the prejudism the chantry has about mages.

Chicken or egg? Are the people prejudiced against the mages because of the Chantry's teachings, or is the Chantry prejudiced against the mages because of the people who compose it? While there's certainly room enough for a feedback loop, there's also a severe lack of any sort of history of mage-reverance in most human populations pre-Chantry.

[SleepyPerson]

Hhoal wrote...

TricksterPuppet wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

How was Connor rebelling against the Templars?

Connor, who even untrained wiped out a major settlement on his lonesome, reacted to an entirely different feud that was entirely separated from the Templar order or oppression. He embraced the demons to safe family from sickness... something that's hardly going to go away without the Templars.

Well I think there should be a circle of magi, where mages can go for help and come and go as they pleased. They do need training but they should also be allowed to be with their family. I just find the chantry goes to far.
I would prefer if it was something like school, where they go during the day and go home in the evening.
Isolde didn't want to send her son to the circle because she knew she wouldn't get to see him whenever she pleased. She was also scared because of the prejudism the chantry has about mages.

There should also be a way to police the mages when they are under 18 when not in school. And we should call this school Hogwarts.

Agreed, there should always be a way to police them but not in a way that is as strict as it is now. Most of the templars just seem to treat them all like villans. If there were more templars who were reasonable like knight-commander Gregoire things would probably be much better.

Every school should be like Hogwarts.

[SleepyPerson]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Chicken or egg? Are the people prejudiced against the mages because of the Chantry's teachings, or is the Chantry prejudiced against the mages because of the people who compose it? While there's certainly room enough for a feedback loop, there's also a severe lack of any sort of history of mage-reverance in most human populations pre-Chantry.

I was just mentioning that Isolde is scared of her son being hated just because he is a mage. Even if the mages pre-Chantry are the cause of most of the hate against mages, many people in the Chantry encourage that hate on the newer generation of mages who weren't born when the Tevinter Empirium ruled. I'm not for or against the Chantry. I just believe that the Chantry is to strict on mages.

[Hhoal]

TricksterPuppet wrote...

Agreed, there should always be a way to police them but not in a way that is as strict as it is now. Most of the templars just seem to treat them all like villans. If there were more templars who were reasonable like knight-commander Gregoire things would probably be much better.

Every school should be like Hogwarts.

Ideally, the Circle of Magi would be a safe-haven rather than a prison. Where mages could come and go with proper clarification of what they were leaving for(i.e. to aid an ally, family matters, sabatical). If it were run more like a military, in that there was a clear chain of command, it was self contained, there was intensive training, all actions had to be thought through clearly with an understandable rational, and that in the event of an abomination or an apostate the accused would be brought before a tribunal(unless of course they were already dead) then I believe it could actually work.
While one can't help if they are gifted with the ability to use magic, they can help themselves. They should be help accountable by peers to uphold law and order and to agree to protect the defenseless. If the Circle of Magi were considered an asset to a kingdom rather than a group of people to be vilified then all parties would gain.

Anytime you take one group of people and make them in charge of a minority you are going to have conflict. Only when a people can self govern will there be harmony. The mages should be considered on the same playing field as the guard but at the same time be condemned if oversights are made, just as the Captain of the Guard was condemned when he was abusing his power and Aveline was promoted.

Modifié par Hhoal, 11 avril 2011 - 05:58 .