62 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

In reading some of the threads on this forum re: the Chantry and mage war, one consistent suggestion I see offered as a compromise is to remove the Chantry from the Circles and allow mages to rule themselves - the problem with that, essentially, is that then people are left to trust mages they will not use blood magic (despite that it is so easy to get seduced) and have no way to combat that (the Chantry could in principle still train templars, but atacking 'independent' mages could well lead to the same war).

As an alternative, why not remove the Circles? We could have boarding schools for mages that function like the Circles used to (and we could keep the Harrowing vs. Tranquility, but make that an open choice apprentices would know of ahead of time) but after the Harrowing, mages could be free. They would have the opportunity to stay and work as lectures at the Circle or as academics researching magic, but could also own stores, amass wealth, own property, marry, etc.

And the templars would then act as an anti-magic police. The mages would respond to Chantry authority still (in the sense that a court of law would be in the eyes of the Chantry with, say, a jury made up of clergymen & senior enchanters) while templars could enforce anti-bloodmage rules.

ETA:
I should clarify one thing: when I say the
Chantry should remain without the Circle, I meant
that the mages should not rule themselves, not that the religious
autocracy should be in charge de facto as now.

Modifié par In Exile, 11 avril 2011 - 03:04 .

[mesmerizedish]

The setting of DAIII? Hogwarts!

[IanPolaris]

Ultimately I think the answer will be to place the authority and regulatory power over magic into the royalty (secular goverments) of each nation and each nation would make it's own rules. In Fereldan, it seems likely that the former circle of mage (at least the senior enchanters) would have a strong say in what those politices would be, but I would not at all be suprised if King Alistair reched out to KC Gregoire and the other senior Templars for leadership.

I also wouldn't be suprised if ultimately (and I see this happening quite soon in Fereldan) that the Templars would agree to serve and swear fealty to the crown in return for a strong role in policing magic.

JIMHO.

-Polaris

[The Angry One]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

The setting of DAIII? Hogwarts!

The survivors will envy the dead.

[TJPags]

I can see a new Circle structure - I've discussed it before - where there is some more freedom for mages once they pass their Harrowing. Assign them to a senior - and presumably trusted - mage. Allow them to travel with that senior mage, or on the business of the senior mage, with Tenplar oversight.

As they pass through that period of time, let them work more on their own, travelling on their own initiative, but either with Templar escort, or a requirement that they stay in local Chantries, or check in with local Templars.

Once they've proven themselves, they can move into the senior mage category, which would allow them to live outside the Circle, with requirements to keep the local Chantry posted as to their whereabouts - letting them know when they'll be travelling, for instance, no sudden unexplained departures - and perhaps returning to the Circle every so often - say, 3-5 years or so - to be interviewed and to ensure they're clean.

Essentially, a kind of apprentice program, followed by a kind of probation situation.

I wouldn't like a scenario where control is given to national governments. Some may have more than 1 mage circle, each may have different standards or rules, etc. And what if an unscrupulous ruler starts demanding activities that would be, lets say, frowned upon from the mages?

[NvVanity]

Problem with that is once Mages are free what is stopping them from practicing Blood Magic in secret? Sure the Loyalists and Aequitarians will most likely obey the law and not succumb to it and the Isolationists will just stay away from everyone. However the Libertarians based on Uldred's rebellion seems to suggest they want complete freedom and won't obey even the smallest of laws regarding magic.

The Circles should stay but the system needs some changes to be made. I do like the boarding school style idea. A Mage could start off in a tower and be allowed to transfer to a less heavily secured location with more beneficial freedoms later.

[TJPags]

NvVanity wrote...

Problem with that is once Mages are free what is stopping them from practicing Blood Magic in secret? Sure the Loyalists and Aequitarians will most likely obey the law and not succumb to it and the Isolationists will just stay away from everyone. However the Libertarians based on Uldred's rebellion seems to suggest they want complete freedom and won't obey even the smallest of laws regarding magic.

The Circles should stay but the system needs some changes to be made. I do like the boarding school style idea. A Mage could start off in a tower and be allowed to transfer to a less heavily secured location with more beneficial freedoms later.

That's why, in my scenario, they don't get that freedom to actually be out of the Circle on their own for a long time.  And even when given the okay to live outside the Circle, they need to check in with the Chantry, keep them apprised of when they may be travelling, check in with Chantries when they travel, and report back to the Circle every so often to be examined.

Failure to do one of those things, and its like a probation violation - Templars come looking for you, to drag you back to the Circle.

[IanPolaris]

NvVanity wrote...

Problem with that is once Mages are free what is stopping them from practicing Blood Magic in secret?

The same thing that keeps most people with high school chemistry books from brewing up C-4 in the kitchen sink?  It's illegal (and the authorities would have your hide if they catch you)?

No reason to think that won't work with magic.  If you have mages a part (not necessarily run but be a part) of an overall organization (likely Crown run) that is dedcated to enforcing the laws on magic (including strict regulation of bloodmagc to make it illegal for 99+% of all mages), then I suspect you'd see very little blood magic.  There would always be a few of course, but that's true with just about every criminal offense.

-Polaris

[Emperor Iaius I]

The Chantry giving up its temporal power? Hah! It will persist in enslaving mankind for eternity.

[NvVanity]

IanPolaris wrote...

NvVanity wrote...

Problem with that is once Mages are free what is stopping them from practicing Blood Magic in secret?

The same thing that keeps most people with high school chemistry books from brewing up C-4 in the kitchen sink?  It's illegal (and the authorities would have your hide if they catch you)?

No reason to think that won't work with magic.  If you have mages a part (not necessarily run but be a part) of an overall organization (likely Crown run) that is dedcated to enforcing the laws on magic (including strict regulation of bloodmagc to make it illegal for 99+% of all mages), then I suspect you'd see very little blood magic.  There would always be a few of course, but that's true with just about every criminal offense.

-Polaris

I'm finding that doubtful as with more open freedom and not having Templars staring you down, its easier to meet someone who could teach blood magic or succumb to a demon while dreaming.

Plus how do you know I don't have C-4 in my kitchen sink?

[IanPolaris]

NvVanity wrote...
I'm finding that doubtful as with more open freedom and not having Templars staring you down, its easier to meet someone who could teach blood magic or succumb to a demon while dreaming.

Plus how do you know I don't have C-4 in my kitchen sink?

I don't see how.  If you aren't fussy (or are too ingorant) of the consequences, bloodmagic is easily available as it is.  Just ask your nearest demon the next time you dream.  That said most trained (anyway) makes fully understand the dangers of this.

My point is that making gun-powerder (blackpowder at the very least), plastic explosives, and even automatic weapons are very common bits of knowledge even in our world even today for most people but most don't do it (and the ability to abuse those is just as threatening as any magic).  Why don't they?  It's illegal and most people don't want to break the law when they have confidence (or at least fear) the police.  I don't see how magic is any different.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

The Chantry giving up its temporal power? Hah! It will persist in enslaving mankind for eternity.

Sadly true.  The only way the chantry will give up it's temporal power (esp over magic) is if it's taken from them (and that is what seems to be happening).

-Polaris

[The Angry One]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

The Chantry giving up its temporal power? Hah! It will persist in enslaving mankind for eternity.

Says the [Fenris]MAGISTER!![/Fenris]

[NvVanity]

IanPolaris wrote...

NvVanity wrote...
I'm finding that doubtful as with more open freedom and not having Templars staring you down, its easier to meet someone who could teach blood magic or succumb to a demon while dreaming.

Plus how do you know I don't have C-4 in my kitchen sink?

I don't see how.  If you aren't fussy (or are too ingorant) of the consequences, bloodmagic is easily available as it is.  Just ask your nearest demon the next time you dream.  That said most trained (anyway) makes fully understand the dangers of this.

My point is that making gun-powerder (blackpowder at the very least), plastic explosives, and even automatic weapons are very common bits of knowledge even in our world even today for most people but most don't do it (and the ability to abuse those is just as threatening as any magic).  Why don't they?  It's illegal and most people don't want to break the law when they have confidence (or at least fear) the police.  I don't see how magic is any different.

-Polaris

That makes sense. There will still be some mages who resent having any Chantry law ruling over them and turn to it but you're probably right about less Mages turning to it.

[TJPags]

IanPolaris wrote...

NvVanity wrote...

Problem with that is once Mages are free what is stopping them from practicing Blood Magic in secret?

The same thing that keeps most people with high school chemistry books from brewing up C-4 in the kitchen sink?  It's illegal (and the authorities would have your hide if they catch you)?

No reason to think that won't work with magic.  If you have mages a part (not necessarily run but be a part) of an overall organization (likely Crown run) that is dedcated to enforcing the laws on magic (including strict regulation of bloodmagc to make it illegal for 99+% of all mages), then I suspect you'd see very little blood magic.  There would always be a few of course, but that's true with just about every criminal offense.

-Polaris

What happens when the ruler of a nation decides they WANT their mages to learn and use blood magic?  After all, mind control can be a tempting thing.

It's no longer illegal . . .and what happens then?

[hoorayforicecream]

As cool as it might be, the biggest problem is that it's pretty difficult for anyone to tell the Chantry that they are no longer welcome in a given nation. When that happens, the Divine calls for an exalted march, and there's a lot of fighting, and a lot of people dead.

[NvVanity]

The Angry One wrote...

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

The Chantry giving up its temporal power? Hah! It will persist in enslaving mankind for eternity.

Says the [Fenris]MAGISTER!![/Fenris]

Fenris would blame anything on Magisters.

>Fenris is eating breakfast and spills his orange juice.
Fenris: DENARIUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[TJPags]

NvVanity wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

The Chantry giving up its temporal power? Hah! It will persist in enslaving mankind for eternity.

Says the [Fenris]MAGISTER!![/Fenris]

Fenris would blame anything on Magisters.

>Fenris is eating breakfast and spills his orange juice.
Fenris: DENARIUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Explains why his mansion is still a wreck in Act 3. 

[In Exile]

IanPolaris wrote...

Ultimately I think the answer will be to place the authority and regulatory power over magic into the royalty (secular goverments) of each nation and each nation would make it's own rules. In Fereldan, it seems likely that the former circle of mage (at least the senior enchanters) would have a strong say in what those politices would be, but I would not at all be suprised if King Alistair reched out to KC Gregoire and the other senior Templars for leadership.

I would strongly disagree with this. Insofar as mages can be a single 'group' (i.e. not the mages beholden to Ferelden, but mages who happen to be in Ferelden) and their overseer has to be extra-national.

If a bloodmage flees to Kirkwall from Ferelden, the same laws and treatment need to apply to protect non-mages.

Not to mention, what happens if we have a bloodmage? She/He might mind-control the government, and suddenly we have the Imperium all over again.

NvVanity wrote...

Problem with that is once Mages are free
what is stopping them from practicing Blood Magic in secret? Sure the
Loyalists and Aequitarians will most likely obey the law and not succumb
to it and the Isolationists will just stay away from everyone. However
the Libertarians based on Uldred's rebellion seems to suggest they want
complete freedom and won't obey even the smallest of laws regarding
magic.

It has to be the templar's might. As I mentioned in the OP, it can't be freedom. I think some more freedom can work, but we have to recognizee the strength of the mages in comparison.

Beyond that, the phylactery (which is ironically blood magic itself) would still keep track of all mages.

The Circles should stay but the system needs some changes
to be made. I do like the boarding school style idea. A Mage could start
off in a tower and be allowed to transfer to a less heavily secured
location with more beneficial freedoms later.

Indeed.

IanPolaris wrote...
No reason to think that won't work with
magic.  If you have mages a part (not necessarily run but be a part) of
an overall organization (likely Crown run) that is dedcated to enforcing
the laws on magic (including strict regulation of bloodmagc to make it
illegal for 99+% of all mages), then I suspect you'd see very little
blood magic.  There would always be a few of course, but that's true
with just about every criminal offense.
-Polaris

Because the Tevinter Imperium has succeeded brilliantly at controlling and abstaining from blood-magic.

If you replace the Chantry with the Crown you've actually made no substantive change to the system. You've just replaced the non-mage potential bigots running the show.

[IanPolaris]

TJPags wrote...

What happens when the ruler of a nation decides they WANT their mages to learn and use blood magic?  After all, mind control can be a tempting thing.

It's no longer illegal . . .and what happens then?

The Chantry is SOL or that nation is.  The way things are, the Chantry is SOL.  Replace "bloodmagic" with "harboring apostates" (also a directly slap against the Divine) and you have Fereldan near the end of DA2....and apparently there isn't much the Divine can do about it.

As for bloodmagic itself, I can't see any ruler permitting bloodmagic to be generally legal.  I can easily see a ruler permitting his most trusted mages serving in his magical security/police services (with very close oversight likely by ex-Templars) being permitted some bloodmagc strictly in the line of duty (the same way SWAT officers are permitted some military grade weapons in the line of duty).  Mind control might be one of them although that would be most strictly regulated of all....for use with interogations amoung other things.

I don't hear bloodmagic and say, "evil, evil....woe is me....unlike some".   Bloodmagic is powerful, dangerous, and not for your everyday mage....but it's not inhrently evil.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

In Exile wrote...

If you replace the Chantry with the Crown you've actually made no substantive change to the system. You've just replaced the non-mage potential bigots running the show.

Actually replacing the governing authority from religious to secular makes a HUGE difference as even our RL history shows.  Secular rulers (even abosolute Louis XIV style kings) must be sensitive to the needs and moods of their subjects.  Secular rulers don't govern mages from 'divine right' which can be used to justify any abuse, but by the same right they rule the rest of their people....by implied consent.  That means it's far, far less likely for a secular ruler to even come close to allowing the abuses that the Chantry took for granted.

Religion and Temporal authority never mix well and it never ends well.

-Polaris

[Icy Magebane]

The system is fine as it is. The only problem is with Templars getting way out of control, and that has only been seen in Kirkwall. One isolated case of abuse shouldn't result in a complete abolition, or even a reform of, the Circles... Honestly, there is nothing stopping mages from ruling over mankind if you allow them to have more freedom. Desperation isn't the only reason people become maleficarum. You know how when you're traveling around Ferelden and like 6-10 bandits at a time just jump you out of nowhere? That's because a large number of people are greedy, bloodthirsty, abusive, or whatever... Now just imagine a world where mages who passed their Harrowing are just roaming around. They would know that one test is all they need... a little good behavior during probation maybe... and after that's over, they give in to their desires.

Honestly, this entire conversation gives humanity too much credit. I don't see the majority of people with that kind of power resisting the temptation to abuse it. Like I said, normal men become bandits... mages can do the same, on a larger scale.

[In Exile]

How do you regulate mindcontrol? It may well be impossible to detect and know if it is being used as a non-mage. It's easy to speak of these things in principle. Beyond that, what's to stop a mage from controlling the kind of the king and de-regulating blood magic? Or for a king to use blood-magic to create golems?

[IanPolaris]

In Exile wrote...

Because the Tevinter Imperium has succeeded brilliantly at controlling and abstaining from blood-magic.

If you looked at Tevinter rationally and neutrally, it has in fact suceeded brilliantly at controlling blood magic.  Blood magic in Tevinter is very much a tool of the magisters and only the magisters which keeps it very much under control.  I grant that the controlling authorities in Tevinter are ones I wouldn't want runnin a local dog pound let along a nation,but they DO control it and magic in general far better (at least apparenly) than the Andrastian nations do.

-Polaris

[Emperor Iaius I]

The Angry One wrote...

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

The Chantry giving up its temporal power? Hah! It will persist in enslaving mankind for eternity.

Says the [Fenris]MAGISTER!![/Fenris]

Says the champion of education, art, culture, progress, and discovery over superstition and ignorance.

Polaris: I used temporal instead of secular for a reason. Even if the monarchs of Thedas freed themselves from the Chantry, they would likely use its religious mandate to secure their rule. Yes, they're responsive to their people: but they can use religion to keep the people docile.

Besides, I'm unconvinced a monarch has to be responsive to the needs of an ignorant peasantry. Do we want somebody like give-me-some-Goldanna running the show?