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[TJPags]

IanPolaris wrote...

TJPags wrote...

What happens when the ruler of a nation decides they WANT their mages to learn and use blood magic?  After all, mind control can be a tempting thing.

It's no longer illegal . . .and what happens then?

The Chantry is SOL or that nation is.  The way things are, the Chantry is SOL.  Replace "bloodmagic" with "harboring apostates" (also a directly slap against the Divine) and you have Fereldan near the end of DA2....and apparently there isn't much the Divine can do about it.

As for bloodmagic itself, I can't see any ruler permitting bloodmagic to be generally legal.  I can easily see a ruler permitting his most trusted mages serving in his magical security/police services (with very close oversight likely by ex-Templars) being permitted some bloodmagc strictly in the line of duty (the same way SWAT officers are permitted some military grade weapons in the line of duty).  Mind control might be one of them although that would be most strictly regulated of all....for use with interogations amoung other things.

I don't hear bloodmagic and say, "evil, evil....woe is me....unlike some".   Bloodmagic is powerful, dangerous, and not for your everyday mage....but it's not inhrently evil.

-Polaris

I don't view blood magic itself as evil either.  However, I view all mages as potential threats, ones making deals with demons more so.

That said, a ruler who lets it be known he/she is interested solely in power is going to attract that kind of mage.  And a power hungry ruler, combined with power hungry mages, makes a bad combination.

That's what I see as the problem with removing a central authority to control mages.  I make it legal in my country, and where do you think those mages are going?  And do you see that ending well?

[In Exile]

IanPolaris wrote...
Actually replacing the governing authority from religious to secular makes a HUGE difference as even our RL history shows.  Secular rulers (even abosolute Louis XIV style kings) must be sensitive to the needs and moods of their subjects.  Secular rulers don't govern mages from 'divine right' which can be used to justify any abuse, but by the same right they rule the rest of their people....by implied consent.  That means it's far, far less likely for a secular ruler to even come close to allowing the abuses that the Chantry took for granted.

Kings (i.e. Louis XIV) governed by divine right. So, actually, yeah, they totally can use divine right to justify their abuse.

Beyond that, the rulers would respond (for example) to powerful nobles. It was that way in the Landsmeet, it was that way in Kirkwall, and it was that way in RL. No one gave a **** about peasants/serfs.

The reasons for the masses revolting in RL was very, very complicated.

Not to mention that you've dodged the question entirely. How would changing the Chantry to a King and keeping everything the same change anything? And if you'd make changes to the system, why would you make those subject to a King who is (usually) considered the Defender of the Faith?

[IanPolaris]

In Exile wrote...

How do you regulate mindcontrol? It may well be impossible to detect and know if it is being used as a non-mage. It's easy to speak of these things in principle. Beyond that, what's to stop a mage from controlling the kind of the king and de-regulating blood magic? Or for a king to use blood-magic to create golems?

If it were that easy, the issue wouldn't come up.  Every ruler would be an abomination, mind-controlled thrall, or advanced bloodmage (or some combination).  They aren't.

That clearly means (and the game lore seems to bear this out) that mind control is:

1. Very advanced magic even for blood magic (most bloodmages won't have it)
2. Very difficult to perform and unreliable at best esp against strong willed targets (such as Hawke)
3.  Apparently of limited duration

We also know of at least one (Litany of Adralla) complete counter to mind-control magic.  If the Chantry would permit the research there are probably otherways to counter (or at least fight) it.

Mind-control magic is not the boogey-man or nuclear weapon of DA. It just isn't.

-Polaris

[Raiil]

Icy Magebane wrote...

Honestly, there is nothing stopping mages from ruling over mankind if you allow them to have more freedom.

Except their own diffidence. Having a lot of money also gives you an enormous amount of power, and we have seen enough wealthy people take advantage of it. Do you remove them from ever having power, and lock them away?


Declaring potential guilt as a reason for a jailing is something tyrannies do. A mage may become corrupt and try to take over the world. But then, many Orlesians rulers have done the same thing, and they did it without the benefit of being able to potentially mind-zap people across distances. Intergration into society can help prevent the scenario of Tevinter: The Sequel from happening. Just as power-hungry mages go bat**** and try to rule the world, power-hungry nobles can do the same thing. And having money on your side tips the scales massively in your favour.

[IanPolaris]

TJPags wrote...

That's what I see as the problem with removing a central authority to control mages.  I make it legal in my country, and where do you think those mages are going?  And do you see that ending well?

Better than the Chantry altenative.  The mages won't permit themselve to be held under clerical authority again.  They'll die first so the current circle system is not an option.

-Polaris

[TJPags]

IanPolaris wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Because the Tevinter Imperium has succeeded brilliantly at controlling and abstaining from blood-magic.

If you looked at Tevinter rationally and neutrally, it has in fact suceeded brilliantly at controlling blood magic.  Blood magic in Tevinter is very much a tool of the magisters and only the magisters which keeps it very much under control.  I grant that the controlling authorities in Tevinter are ones I wouldn't want runnin a local dog pound let along a nation,but they DO control it and magic in general far better (at least apparenly) than the Andrastian nations do.

-Polaris

Yes, and magisters gain power by killing their rivals.

You sure you want to point to this as an example of a well-oiled machine?

[In Exile]

IanPolaris wrote...

If you looked at Tevinter rationally and neutrally, it has in fact suceeded brilliantly at controlling blood magic.  Blood magic in Tevinter is very much a tool of the magisters and only the magisters which keeps it very much under control.  I grant that the controlling authorities in Tevinter are ones I wouldn't want runnin a local dog pound let along a nation,but they DO control it and magic in general far better (at least apparenly) than the Andrastian nations do.

Are you serious? They control it in the sense that everyone uses it with impunity and zero consequences. That isn't controlling it at all.

"Magister" is a rank, but all mages use bloodmagic. Fernis tells you stories were people are executed for party flavour.

[TJPags]

IanPolaris wrote...

TJPags wrote...

That's what I see as the problem with removing a central authority to control mages.  I make it legal in my country, and where do you think those mages are going?  And do you see that ending well?

Better than the Chantry altenative.  The mages won't permit themselve to be held under clerical authority again.  They'll die first so the current circle system is not an option.

-Polaris

Well, then I guess we could just start slaughtering mages at birth, or the minute they show any such ability.

[IanPolaris]

Fenris is not a neutral commentator about Tevinter. I am NOT condoning or advocating Tevinter's system. It's a trap to be avoided in fact, but it DOES work at controlling magic including bloodmagic. Just not in a very nice way unless you happen to be not just a mage but a very powerful one that can also negotiate the politics of the Senate.

-Polaris

[In Exile]

IanPolaris wrote...
1. Very advanced magic even for blood magic (most bloodmages won't have it)
2. Very difficult to perform and unreliable at best esp against strong willed targets (such as Hawke)
3.  Apparently of limited duration

Mind-control magic is not the boogey-man or nuclear weapon of DA. It just isn't.

-Polaris

Except this worked brilliantly in DA2, especially with the mind-controlling Blooming Rose ****. The litany needs a mage to use it. So if all the mages are in on it... well, they can "use" the litany and the slave is "cured".

Beyond that, mind-controlling Blooming Rose **** had zero difficutly doing it (she didn't even break a sweat), she coud do it without any visible sign...  and all that saved Hawke was Hawke being awesome.

Hell, it could very well be Hawke is only alive because that woman was weak and real bloodmage would have crushed Hawke's brain to jelly.

[IanPolaris]

TJPags wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

TJPags wrote...

That's what I see as the problem with removing a central authority to control mages.  I make it legal in my country, and where do you think those mages are going?  And do you see that ending well?

Better than the Chantry altenative.  The mages won't permit themselve to be held under clerical authority again.  They'll die first so the current circle system is not an option.

-Polaris

Well, then I guess we could just start slaughtering mages at birth, or the minute they show any such ability.

There are many Templars that would absolutely agree with your idea and just argue about the logistics.  That tells me how rotten the Templars and Chantry have become.

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 11 avril 2011 - 02:49 .

[Emperor Iaius I]

In Exile wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

If you looked at Tevinter rationally and neutrally, it has in fact suceeded brilliantly at controlling blood magic.  Blood magic in Tevinter is very much a tool of the magisters and only the magisters which keeps it very much under control.  I grant that the controlling authorities in Tevinter are ones I wouldn't want runnin a local dog pound let along a nation,but they DO control it and magic in general far better (at least apparenly) than the Andrastian nations do.

Are you serious? They control it in the sense that everyone uses it with impunity and zero consequences. That isn't controlling it at all.

"Magister" is a rank, but all mages use bloodmagic. Fernis tells you stories were people are executed for party flavour.

They do control it. Blood magic isn't forbidden in the Imperium, but mages are trained in how to use it responsibly and avoid demonic possession. All this nonsense about mind-control and blood sacrifices is just another way of saying "we dislike blood magic"--yeah, we can tell. That sort of thing is just inherent to it: this is a bit like saying elemental magic is bad because it controls the elements.

It's worth pointing out that even the Chantry scholars admit that the populace was eager to see the magisters return to power. We even see elves in DA:O and DA2 supportive of the system and buying into it because they actually can advance in Tevinter society, as opposed to live in the ghettos the other Andrastian nations have built for them. Where do we see discontent? A highly biased, psychotic, mentally damaged ex-slave.

Hm.

Modifié par Emperor Iaius I, 11 avril 2011 - 02:51 .

[In Exile]

IanPolaris wrote...

Fenris is not a neutral commentator about Tevinter. I am NOT condoning or advocating Tevinter's system. It's a trap to be avoided in fact, but it DOES work at controlling magic including bloodmagic. Just not in a very nice way unless you happen to be not just a mage but a very powerful one that can also negotiate the politics of the Senate.

-Polaris

Fenris is an example of everything that is wrong with Tevinter. You think he's pretending to be a slave? You think all the slavers we saw go after him and all the magisters that followed are nice people?

[Raiil]

In Exile wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

If you looked at Tevinter rationally and neutrally, it has in fact suceeded brilliantly at controlling blood magic.  Blood magic in Tevinter is very much a tool of the magisters and only the magisters which keeps it very much under control.  I grant that the controlling authorities in Tevinter are ones I wouldn't want runnin a local dog pound let along a nation,but they DO control it and magic in general far better (at least apparenly) than the Andrastian nations do.

Are you serious? They control it in the sense that everyone uses it with impunity and zero consequences. That isn't controlling it at all.

"Magister" is a rank, but all mages use bloodmagic. Fernis tells you stories were people are executed for party flavour.

Er... magisters in Tevinter keep the everyday mage populace in check IIRC. I doubt they're going to teach every single underling how to mind control b-----s left and right. And you know how Anders may be blowing stuff out of proportion due to a single-minded hatred of the system? Fenris is really just as capable. I believe him when he talks about the things his former owner did, like executing the small child, but Fenris has his own limited scope. I doubt he knows enough of the hum-drum mages to really be able to call it as he sees it.

[IanPolaris]

In Exile,

She was a very powerful bloodmage and even then it clearly took a lot of effort and it wasn't absolute. If Mind control magic were as potent, easy, and effective as you claimed then everyone would be mind-controlled except for a very few handful at the top and that isn't so.

-Polaris

[Icy Magebane]

Valentia X wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

Honestly, there is nothing stopping mages from ruling over mankind if you allow them to have more freedom.

Except their own diffidence. Having a lot of money also gives you an enormous amount of power, and we have seen enough wealthy people take advantage of it. Do you remove them from ever having power, and lock them away?


Declaring potential guilt as a reason for a jailing is something tyrannies do. A mage may become corrupt and try to take over the world. But then, many Orlesians rulers have done the same thing, and they did it without the benefit of being able to potentially mind-zap people across distances. Intergration into society can help prevent the scenario of Tevinter: The Sequel from happening. Just as power-hungry mages go bat**** and try to rule the world, power-hungry nobles can do the same thing. And having money on your side tips the scales massively in your favour.

It's true, you can use gold to raise an army.  However, a powerful mage doesn't need an army.  Several mages working in concert would be a disaster...  even without blood magic, normal soldiers cannot stand against maleficarum.  I'm only saying that it's best for the greatest number of people if the mages are closely monitored.  And the Circle isn't nearly as bad as Anders makes it out to be.  The Ferelden Circle was quiet, peaceful, and stable...   I never saw that place as a prison, except on my evil characters...  

Well, whatever.  I guess "for the greater good" just isn't going to convince anybody.  It's more important that everyone have the opportunity to walk around outdoors.

[Emperor Iaius I]

In Exile wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Fenris is not a neutral commentator about Tevinter. I am NOT condoning or advocating Tevinter's system. It's a trap to be avoided in fact, but it DOES work at controlling magic including bloodmagic. Just not in a very nice way unless you happen to be not just a mage but a very powerful one that can also negotiate the politics of the Senate.

-Polaris

Fenris is an example of everything that is wrong with Tevinter. You think he's pretending to be a slave? You think all the slavers we saw go after him and all the magisters that followed are nice people?

His sister seemed fine with it. So did the elf in DA:O. How is slavery functionally different from living in an alienage?

Well, a Tevinter slave can apparently be a candidate for a magister. An alienage dweller. . . will never advance at all.

[In Exile]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...
They do control it. Blood magic isn't forbidden in the Imperium, but mages are trained in how to use it responsibly and avoid demonic possession.

No, they don't. The fact they teach other mages not to get themselves killed is not a method of control of bloodmagic which is the substantive issue.

All this nonsense about mind-control and blood sacrifices is just another way of saying "we dislike blood magic"--yeah, we can tell. That sort of thing is just inherent to it: this is a bit like saying elemental magic is bad because it controls the elements.

Blood-magic came up because of it's unique effect on the minds of others. Magic isn't "bad" but it is dangerous. Blood magic is more perserve (because it requires living sacrifices) but casting fire from the sky is no less dangerous to illiterate peasants.

Mages ought to be free. But non-mages need to be protected.

[TJPags]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

In Exile wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Fenris is not a neutral commentator about Tevinter. I am NOT condoning or advocating Tevinter's system. It's a trap to be avoided in fact, but it DOES work at controlling magic including bloodmagic. Just not in a very nice way unless you happen to be not just a mage but a very powerful one that can also negotiate the politics of the Senate.

-Polaris

Fenris is an example of everything that is wrong with Tevinter. You think he's pretending to be a slave? You think all the slavers we saw go after him and all the magisters that followed are nice people?

His sister seemed fine with it. So did the elf in DA:O. How is slavery functionally different from living in an alienage?

Well, a Tevinter slave can apparently be a candidate for a magister. An alienage dweller. . . will never advance at all.

Well, only if they can use magic.

Otherwise, well, sucks to be them, right?

"Darling, be a dear and bring me another dozen slaves for my ritual, will you?"

[Emperor Iaius I]

They teach other mages to use blood magic safely. The other complaint, mind-control and/or sacrifices, is simply a way of saying one disapproves of blood magic in general. I'd posit that there is no need to control blood magic outside of avoiding abominations and demonic hijinx.

Non-mages can be protected. They can obey and/or get out of the way.

TJPags : Blood sacrifices may get a little inconvenient, certainly. One could imagine that--had not the trollop Andraste interfered--the magisters would have eventually invented a method of blood donation.

Modifié par Emperor Iaius I, 11 avril 2011 - 02:58 .

[Raiil]

Icy Magebane wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

Honestly, there is nothing stopping mages from ruling over mankind if you allow them to have more freedom.

Except their own diffidence. Having a lot of money also gives you an enormous amount of power, and we have seen enough wealthy people take advantage of it. Do you remove them from ever having power, and lock them away?


Declaring potential guilt as a reason for a jailing is something tyrannies do. A mage may become corrupt and try to take over the world. But then, many Orlesians rulers have done the same thing, and they did it without the benefit of being able to potentially mind-zap people across distances. Intergration into society can help prevent the scenario of Tevinter: The Sequel from happening. Just as power-hungry mages go bat**** and try to rule the world, power-hungry nobles can do the same thing. And having money on your side tips the scales massively in your favour.

It's true, you can use gold to raise an army.  However, a powerful mage doesn't need an army.  Several mages working in concert would be a disaster...  even without blood magic, normal soldiers cannot stand against maleficarum.  I'm only saying that it's best for the greatest number of people if the mages are closely monitored.  And the Circle isn't nearly as bad as Anders makes it out to be.  The Ferelden Circle was quiet, peaceful, and stable...   I never saw that place as a prison, except on my evil characters...  

Well, whatever.  I guess "for the greater good" just isn't going to convince anybody.  It's more important that everyone have the opportunity to walk around outdoors.

Perhaps the idea that as adults, needing permission to marry a loved one is galling. Or not wanting to have the child you bore ripped from your arms. Or being able to decide what you want to do with your life is something people aspire to all the time. It's not just about being able to walk where you want. It's being able to live in your house, with your privacy, your own doors that you can lock, with a schedule you decide, and the life you want to live. This isn't just about keeping people cooped out in a tower. They're denied things that, if you tried to do to your average citizen, they'd be up in arms about it.


If the Chantry worried so much, teach templar abilities to everyone. Don't keep a standing army whose mandate is interpreted by many to  'oppose all that you are.' What they are? Someone who happens to have an ability they didn't choose? 

[In Exile]

Valentia X
Er... magisters in Tevinter keep the everyday mage populace in check IIRC. I doubt they're going to teach every single underling how to mind control b-----s left and right.

Fernis may well be lying, but the fact that blood magic is the entry-level criteria for Magister is unlikely to be one. But let's say I grant your point - we have lots of mages that don't have bloodmagic, and an oligarchic elite which uses it with impunity.

Great. That's a better system.

IanPolaris wrote...

In Exile,

She was a very
powerful bloodmage and even then it clearly took a lot of effort and it
wasn't absolute. If Mind control magic were as potent, easy, and
effective as you claimed then everyone would be mind-controlled except
for a very few handful at the top and that isn't so.

-Polaris

What makes you think she was a powerful blood mage? The second her mind control fails she gets on her knees to beg for her life. Yeah, really powerful.

As for your point, well, mages would actually have to be near anyone to do it. And with the Circles, they can't.

Emperor Iaius I wrote...
His sister seemed fine with it. So
did the elf in DA:O. How is slavery functionally different from living
in an alienage?

Well, a Tevinter slave can apparently be a
candidate for a magister. An alienage dweller. . . will never advance at
all.

The utter failure of Andrastian society to provide for elves does not somehow mean that the Tevinter system of slavery is a good system.

It's weird I'm actually standing up for the Chantry because I feel for the plight of the mages, but the reality is that there needs to be a balance. That's the equitable solution. The Tevinter imperium is just as much of an oppressive empire as the Chantry; it's just the other way around.

[Emperor Iaius I]

The difference is that the Imperium was successful: it built a highly sophisticated society still unsurpassed to this day. The Chantry brought nothing but dissention and ignorance.

[The Angry One]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

The difference is that the Imperium was successful: it built a highly sophisticated society still unsurpassed to this day. The Chantry brought nothing but dissention and ignorance.

Except it had to surrender to the Andrasteans.
Sure you could say it's all their fault for stirring up trouble, but then I could say the Chantry is fine and it's all the mages' fault for being malcontents.

[IanPolaris]

No question that Tevinter is an utterly oppressive society but unlike the Andrastian Chantry lately, it's stable and it works. I believe that basic fact has to be aknowledged, dealt with, and learned from rather than feared.

-Polaris