484 réponses à ce sujet

[Captmorgan72]

unless you are playing a darkside mage. The freaking first enchanter of kirkwall is close friends with a psychotic blood mage that Orsino is helping with his experiments. I don't blame Meredith at all with her attitude about blood mages being everywhere, because they mostly were. It's too bad she had to lose her mind because of that damn idol, she was a champion against dark magic. Even if I play as a mage, I find myself supporting the templars, mostly Cullen though, after Meredith goes nuts. There is no denying that magic is extremely dangerous and that is why the circles exist to begin with. Don't fix what isn't broken. The world saw what happened when mages are left without checks and balances, when the Tevinter Mages attempted to overthrow the Maker.

[IanPolaris]

Just repeat after me: Do not kill people for a crime they didn't commit.

Follow that through to the very end, and you'll have no trouble siding with the mages.

-Polaris

[NvVanity]

It's the whole radicalism ideology that makes supporting them hard. I supported them hoping that Hawke eventually will be able to save non blood mages once they win and all maleificar are promptly dealt with. Problem is we're all going to have to wait to see if we made the right choice.

[The Angry One]

IanPolaris wrote...

Just repeat after me: Do not kill people for a crime they didn't commit.

Follow that through to the very end, and you'll have no trouble siding with the mages.

-Polaris

Too bad that 99.9% of all mages not named Bethany are in fact commiting crimes in DA2.

[NvVanity]

The Angry One wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Just repeat after me: Do not kill people for a crime they didn't commit.

Follow that through to the very end, and you'll have no trouble siding with the mages.

-Polaris

Too bad that 99.9% of all mages not named Bethany are in fact commiting crimes in DA2.

What about "Unnamed Background Mage #5" and "Store Clerk Mage Guy"?

[TJPags]

The Circle at Kirkwall clearly deserves to be wiped out.

Luckily, no matter who you side with, it is.

[The Angry One]

NvVanity wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Just repeat after me: Do not kill people for a crime they didn't commit.

Follow that through to the very end, and you'll have no trouble siding with the mages.

-Polaris

Too bad that 99.9% of all mages not named Bethany are in fact commiting crimes in DA2.

What about "Unnamed Background Mage #5" and "Store Clerk Mage Guy"?

You mean the Formari herbalist guy?
I bet I'm not the only one who was expecting for him to say "Gyahahaha, fool! You gathered the ingredients for my despicably evil blood ritual!" and then turn into an abomination.

[IanPolaris]

The Angry One wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Just repeat after me: Do not kill people for a crime they didn't commit.

Follow that through to the very end, and you'll have no trouble siding with the mages.

-Polaris

Too bad that 99.9% of all mages not named Bethany are in fact commiting crimes in DA2.

Facts not in evidence.  Even the Devs had admitted that they presented and extremely skewed and one-sided view of mages and magic in DA2 (esp in Acts 2 and 3).  Fact is you never see most mages.

-Polaris

[TJPags]

The Angry One wrote...

NvVanity wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Just repeat after me: Do not kill people for a crime they didn't commit.

Follow that through to the very end, and you'll have no trouble siding with the mages.

-Polaris

Too bad that 99.9% of all mages not named Bethany are in fact commiting crimes in DA2.

What about "Unnamed Background Mage #5" and "Store Clerk Mage Guy"?

You mean the Formari herbalist guy?
I bet I'm not the only one who was expecting for him to say "Gyahahaha, fool! You gathered the ingredients for my despicably evil blood ritual!" and then turn into an abomination.

He didn't?

I assumed I missed a quest somewhere . . . .

[In Exile]

IanPolaris wrote...

Just repeat after me: Do not kill people for a crime they didn't commit.

Follow that through to the very end, and you'll have no trouble siding with the mages.

-Polaris

The problem is that you can't side with no one, which is exactly what I would have done. Execute Anders publically, and then let Meredith sort the rest out.

Certainly you can't execute innocent mages... but Orsino made it possible for Hawke's mother to die and was practicing blood magic. Killing him would be entirely in accordance with your principle.

Now, killing people for crimes you haven't proven they committed is different.

But in DA2 the mages were not innocent.

Except the templars were abusers and rapists. And so there is the dillema.

[Emperor Iaius I]

There are several innocent blood mages in this game.

Merrill. Taronhe. The girl at the Rose.

I'd say Decimus and Grace, but I can't remember if they were abominations or not.

[The Angry One]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

There are several innocent blood mages in this game.

Merrill. Taronhe. The girl at the Rose.

I'd say Decimus and Grace, but I can't remember if they were abominations or not.

They weren't.
But I do question your defenition of innocent.

[Girl on a Rock]

I didn't find it at all difficult to support the mages in this game, and none of my playthroughs have been with a character who was down with blood magic. It may be helped by the fact that in DA:O, you got a much better-rounded view of mages in general - even Jowan, the one blood mage you get to know kind of personally, is shown to be more of a misguided patsy than actually malicious.

In this game, though, it seems as though the developers were overcompensating for the fact that Hawke's father and sister were mages (if not Hawke him/herself) by making every mage you encounter in the game so ridiculously evil, it seems like the templars might have some kind of justification for their behavior. The problem is, it's all pretty unrealistic and just weird. Like O OK just so happens that the SUPER EVIL MAGE turning HELPLESS MOTHERLY WOMEN into a FRANKENZOMBIE picks Hawke's mom, of all people, to use in his EVIL EXPERIMENTS.

There's no Wynne in this game - a person who's bonded to a spirit but is pretty much lawful good, supports the Circle and the Chantry, and dedicates her life to spirit healing. There's not even a freaking Morrigan, whose attitude was abrasive but to our in-game knowledge, didn't truck with demons or blood magic, and was an apostate around whom moral issues were decidedly grey. No, it's just your darling sister, your darling dad, maybe your darling self, and a whole damn city of highly corruptible mages. Oh, right, and the evil mage that enslaved Fenris.

It was so implausible, and I guess my impressions from DA:O were so strong (and I also imagined what my Hawke's ideas would be having been raised by and with an apostate) that I didn't have any trouble at all having her judge people as individuals rather than condemning all mages because apparently there's crazy juice in the water of Kirkwall.

Modifié par Girl on a Rock, 11 avril 2011 - 02:41 .

[Emperor Iaius I]

Self-evident: not abominations.

[primero holodon]

well, seeing as how my hawke
-is a son of an apostate
- is a brother of an apostate, who he would gladly give his life to protect
- has a dalish apostate lover
- and dosen't really believe in the maker anyway

It just doesn't make sense for him to support the templars, especially when they are so insane and morally bankrupt.

[Girl on a Rock]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

There are several innocent blood mages in this game.

Merrill. Taronhe. The girl at the Rose.

I'd say Decimus and Grace, but I can't remember if they were abominations or not.

Tarhone? Idunna? Decimus and Grace? What? Are you kidding?

Even Merrill is questionable, and she's the closest example to innocent you gave!

Tarhone was manipulating the minds of templars and not only allowing but encouraging demons to possess them; Idunna was purposely and gleefully leading them to that fate (before Hawke makes her almost crap herself/kills her), and Decimus is summoning demons to inhabit the dead bodies that attack you (aka skeleton archers, walking corpses). I'm pretty sure that Grace ends up turning into either a desire demon or a nasty abomination.

So no, please. Don't defend mages using these examples. I support mages and this argument is just straight crazy.

[Morroian]

IanPolaris wrote...

Just repeat after me: Do not kill people for a crime they didn't commit.

including children.

[Emperor Iaius I]

Girl on a Rock wrote...

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

There are several innocent blood mages in this game.

Merrill. Taronhe. The girl at the Rose.

I'd say Decimus and Grace, but I can't remember if they were abominations or not.

Tarhone? Idunna? Decimus and Grace? What? Are you kidding?

Even Merrill is questionable, and she's the closest example to innocent you gave!

Tarhone was manipulating the minds of templars and not only allowing but encouraging demons to possess them; Idunna was purposely and gleefully leading them to that fate (before Hawke makes her almost crap herself/kills her), and Decimus is summoning demons to inhabit the dead bodies that attack you (aka skeleton archers, walking corpses). I'm pretty sure that Grace ends up turning into either a desire demon or a nasty abomination.

So no, please. Don't defend mages using these examples. I support mages and this argument is just straight crazy.

To wit, the Scrolls of Banastor: In the Fade dwell creatures both foul and fair, but all plague mankind with lusts and prides incalculable in our waking hours. Our power attracts them, and for good reason: Our unique bridge between flesh and dreams is one way they can enter the realm of flesh. To begin the path to true power, court these poor, terrible creatures and best them. Force them into servitude or pledge your heart to them. Either way, you gain immense power and the means with which to tear holes in the world.

(Below the text, scribbled in the margin, are arcane symbols drawn with blood.)

****
The creatures, these demons, require little in the way of bribery. Their natural state is one of longing for the world of flesh and blood. This is what you offer them: respite from their eternal search for true life. Engage them in a battle of wills, and you will be successful. Should you fail, the power will be yours, but your body will belong to the demon. Relish this infernal power while it lasts, for once you are an abomination, your demon half will soon swallow your mind.


There is nothing wrong with tricking demons and using them for the good of mankind. The demons would think nothing of doing the same to you.

Manipulating the minds of rapists? Pardon me while I pity the Templars. Except I shan't. Moreover, the Chantry already manipulates them through theology and addiction: to be a templar is to be a slave, definitionally. Those Chantry stooges aren't losing anything.

Idunna? She was frightened. A bunch of people came to question her--she was simply defending herself the only way she knew how.

Decimus--see the scrolls. What, is possession of a corpse prima facie evidence of "crazy?" That's sheer prejudice speaking.

I reject the premise that mages are innocent only if they play along with the constraints the Chantry has placed on them. Why should I accept those terms? I am not interested in using their basic assumptions.

Magic should rule man. This is as Dumat taught, and this is what created a glorious civilization that was torn down by ignorance and superstition.

[The Angry One]

Idunna sent young recruits off to get possessed, Decimus was a deranged cult leader and possible arsonist.
They're not evil for using blood magic, they're evil for.. well, doing evil things.

[Maria Caliban]

Kirkwall: Nuke It From Orbit.

[Emperor Iaius I]

The Angry One wrote...

Idunna sent young recruits off to get possessed, Decimus was a deranged cult leader and possible arsonist.
They're not evil for using blood magic, they're evil for.. well, doing evil things.

If Fenris had done the same thing to the Tevinter soldiers that Idunna had done to the templars, people would be cheering his sense of justice. It's a matter of perspective, and I'm disinclined to take the perspective that the Chantry and its minions force on us.

[Urazz]

IanPolaris wrote...

Just repeat after me: Do not kill people for a crime they didn't commit.

Follow that through to the very end, and you'll have no trouble siding with the mages.

-Polaris

Exactly, you basically kill any blood mages acting out anyways even if you side with the mages.  You also run into a group of mages fighting templars without blood magic in Darktown right before you get to the docks if I recall.  Not to mention all the mages that get killed in the Gallows once the templars start invading right before Orsino goes crazy.

That's the only reason why I sided with the Circle mages at the end.  They didn't blow up the chantry and kill the Grand Cleric, Anders did and Meredith knew it.