484 réponses à ce sujet

[Girl on a Rock]

IanPolaris wrote...

Peer of the Empire wrote...

nedpepper wrote...
I think you're reaching here.  You're trying to find something that is not there.  This is the same game that allows you to have same sex relationships.  You're really going to accuse Bioware of being racially insensitive?  Really?

He's accusing the general population of harboring racist sentiments.

As far as the dusky mage goes, I happen to think that his duskiness is partly meant to elicit automatic priggishness and self-righteousness among certain players over taking care of the poor mages.  He did have a fat effeminate face too, lol, poor harmless guy

Exactly what I was trying to get at.  I am not trying to say that Bioware or all gamers are racist.  I am saying that in a western audience, there will (still unfortunately) be some subconcious racist overtones that I think Bioware (and Ad companies do this all the time as well) is deliberately using to further subconciously stack the deck even more against siding with the mages.

It's sad that this is almost impossible to discuss in a civilized manner.

-Polaris

First of all, it seemed like that guy was mocking you.

Second of all, it's really insane how you assume just because someone doesn't agree with you that they fail to recognize the problems of race and the manipulation of  people's perceptions of it by ad companies.

This would be more possible to discuss in a civilized manner if you weren't so condescending and unable to listen to anyone who doesn't agree with you about Bioware's motivations.

I'm going to drop it now, because you seem to be the type of person who's incapable of being able to entertain another person's perspective, ironically enough.

[Rockpopple]

You keep mentioning ad companies. You know ad companies have a motive to do what they do: sell more product.

So what's BioWare's motive to do the same thing? There's no extra cash in it for them. If you're into the story, you've already either brought or rented the game. They have your money.

So again, what's BioWare's motive? To make gamers hate Mages? Why? You can't discount this question. Why would they do this?

Of course, there is no answer to why because it's a ridiculous assertion that you have zero evidence over other than the most anecdotal of anecdotal evidence of your own experience. It doesn't pass the smell test.

Edit: And yeah, I'm gonna drop this as well because this is an absolutely.... I honestly can't believe this conversation is even being had. BioWare's trying to use ancestral racial undertones and prejudices in order to make gamers hate video game Mages? I... yeah. No mas. No mas.

Modifié par Rockpopple, 12 avril 2011 - 12:41 .

[KJandrew]

Really? You're accusing bioware of having some kind of racist subliminal messaging to make us side with the templars because one mage has a middle eastern look.
Actually now you mention it they are i mean Levi is a jewish name and Levi Dryden wanted my credit card number.
And Isabella was kind of black and she went around robbing people.
From this evidence i can only conclude that DG and ML don't actually work on the game, they're just figure heads. Really there are a bunch of Ayran writers and programmers working on Dragon age behind closed doors and that's why Meredith and Alirk are blonde

Modifié par KJandrew, 12 avril 2011 - 12:54 .

[Girl on a Rock]

Rifneno wrote...

Eh.  I disagree with his assertion that Bioware made Alain look middle eastern for an intentional racial reaction but he's not wrong that subconsciously there's some degree of racism.  Studies have shown that babies react better to people of their own race.  It doesn't make you a horrible person to have basic subconscious reactions to things, it's only when they're consciously and deliberately acted upon.  He's not accusing anyone of burning crosses on lawns, he's stating a basic scientific theory.

This. But Polaris has proven difficult to converse with.

[Girl on a Rock]

Rockpopple wrote...

You keep mentioning ad companies. You know ad companies have a motive to do what they do: sell more product.

So what's BioWare's motive to do the same thing? There's no extra cash in it for them. If you're into the story, you've already either brought or rented the game. They have your money.

So again, what's BioWare's motive? To make gamers hate Mages? Why? You can't discount this question. Why would they do this?

Of course, there is no answer to why because it's a ridiculous assertion that you have zero evidence over other than the most anecdotal of anecdotal evidence of your own experience. It doesn't pass the smell test.

Edit: And yeah, I'm gonna drop this as well because this is an absolutely.... I honestly can't believe this conversation is even being had. BioWare's trying to use ancestral racial undertones and prejudices in order to make gamers hate video game Mages? I... yeah. No mas. No mas.

Thiiiiiiis.

[stobie]

IanPolaris wrote...

KingNothing125 wrote...

I agreed with you that the deck is stacked against the mages... but that is easily demonstrated by the writing and the story arc. The idea that they used racist undertones to reinforce that seems a bit unnecessary and conspiratorial.

It honestly didn't even occure to me until I took a close look at the protagonists.

Forget the supporting cast, let's compare Meridith and Orisino.  Let's restrict the discussion to just those two.  Do you really think that making Orisino look like Count Dracula, with the new Elven (and thus creepily inhuman) appearence with a weasel voice and three headed snake staff was an accident?

They WANT you to instinctively hate Orsino...even before he utters a single word!

-Polaris

Ok, that's just... soooo wrong.  I don't even know where to begin.  First of all, the elves look great.  There's nothing 'creepily inhuman' about them.  I tossed aside Cute Mage for Cute Elf in about 2 lines of dialogue.  You are so much seeing things through your own filter!   Meredith, I disliked because she reminded me of someone I know in Real Life, (who is, in fact, Nordic) - but geez! I can recognize this is *my* perception and not necessarily the stark horror of anyone else out there!

You know, if you wanted, you could just say Meredith is (ok, words I probably cannot say but which means 'pushy woman who emasculates men with a look) - I could then set out to say Bioware hates strong women, & speculate on their personal lives & views. Or... I could just get a grip & calm down....

[Torax]

IanPolaris wrote...

nedpepper wrote...
I think you're reaching here.  You're trying to find something that is not there.  This is the same game that allows you to have same sex relationships.  You're really going to accuse Bioware of being racially insensitive?  Really?

I am not saying that at all. I am saying that Bioware is taking advantage of subconsious (and obviously senstive) racial undertones and subtext that still exist within Western Culture to further imply that mages are bad by selective use of voice and appearence.  Your local ad company does the same thing fwiw.

-Polaris

Once again you really should be taking your medication cause I for one never saw anything like that in any of those characters. You tend to read into things and make up your own little fanfics of what they mean or what the writers are maybe trying to tell you directly in your own head. It at times can be pretty distrubing.

Alain's only difference to any of the other npcs is maybe a 2 shade darker skin tone but that makes him as dark skinned as Isabela. Is she supposed to incite racism in people to? Is this something you made up in your head as proof that the developers want people to hate mages?

[stobie]

Wouldn't it be funny to have Orsino, Meredith & the Arishok as love interests?

Back to Alain's skin coloring - I just assumed he was from the same place as Isabella.  The biggest assumption I made is, "ooh, it must be warm there. Wish it was warm here..."  

Alain isn't a negative character, anyway.  He's not a powerhouse of strong, either, and he does come off as a victim, (in a darker way than I had at first realized)  - but even so, how is that a horrible stereotype?  He seems young - very young - and impressionable, and exploitable, if not by the Templars, then by Grace & her ilk.

This conversation has gotten so weird...

Modifié par stobie, 12 avril 2011 - 12:51 .

[IanPolaris]

stobie wrote...

Wouldn't it be funny to have Orsino, Meredith & the Arishok as love interests?

Humorous Hawke can chide both Orisno and Meridith that they should both calm down or else people will "talk".  However I do wonder at times if the joke had an element of truth behind it.....

-Polaris

[Paeyne]

IanPolaris wrote...

Consider the Templars:  Meridith could well be a model of a Viking Valkryrie (her face is unfortunate, but otherwise....zinga.....) with a strong authoritative (but not masculine voice) that says, "Follow me and trust me".  Cullen is even more obviously designed with visual and auditory cues that says, "I am a hero and I have your best interests at heart, which permits him to say the most outrageous things and you start to nod before realize just how outrageous it was...such as mages are not really people".  The only even remotely creepy Templar we meet is Sir Alrik.

Now consider the mages.  Orisina has that "Count Dracula Prince of Transylvania" look going. Please don't tell me that was accident.  That along with his weasely voice screams, "I am an evil devilworshipping mage....do not trust me" whether the content justifies that reaction or not.  Decimus when you first meet him (the last moments of his life) screams, "I am unkempt hermit insane cult leader" and if you didn't get that message from his appearence alone, the mages worshipping around his feet almost certainly should have completed the picture.  Alain winds up to be the only sane mage, but unlike all the Templars, he is made to look Middle-Eastern and thus appeal to a sub-conscious racism that too many people still have and make him seem even more untrustworthy and shifty than he really is.

-Polaris

Aren't you a little guilty here of the thing you so vehemently argue against?  Judging someone by their appearance rather than their actions?

I, for one, disagree.

Meridith was what you would expect as a long standing strong leader of one of the largest Templar Orders in Thedas.

Orsino appeared perfectly reasonable (if understandably desperate) to me.  I never once got any hint of any subtle Count Chocula overtones.

The Baconer wrote...

Say what you want about the
Chantry policy, but Knight Commanders are given a lot of autonomy in
running their respective circles. Meredith is a complete failure, and to
put the blame entirely on the Chantry or on the idol for events largely
caused by her incompetence is ridiculous.

Ridiculous?  I don't think so.

The Templars authority is derived from the Chantry.  If they are given a great deal of autonomy it is because the Chantry allows that autonomy.  From what I have seen there was absolutely no oversight in Kirkwall.  Elthina knew a great deal of what the Templars may be doing and did nothing.  This seemed to have been from some vain hope that things would all sort of work out.  No investigations, no questioning of Meridith, nothing.  (All of which were in here complete authority to do.)   That speaks to me of complete incompetance and negligence than anything Meridith did.

Also, Meridith was not incompetent, she was insane.  Even after years of influence under the idol she was able to speak eloquently and succinctly, far better than Bartrand was able to do even after much longer exposure.  She was also was a competent leader for the many years previous to receiving the idol.  A testiment to her strength of will and purpose is that the player didn't realize how barking mad she was till she pulled out that Lyrium sword.

Unfortunately, in the game, we go from 0 to 60 in ten seconds rather than see the descent of the Templars into corruption reasonable step by reasonable step.

[IanPolaris]

Filament wrote...

The problem here is how sure you are that this couldn't possibly be a coincidence.

At first I thought it was coincidence truth be told.  I didn't notice it on the conscious level until my fourth playthrough when I started keeping track on paper just to be sure I wasn't seeing something that wasn't there.  I wasnt.

I then went back and played DAO through Lothering again (where again you see a fair number of templars) with the mage origin (where you see a fair number of mages).

No accident.

In DAO, in a land (Fereldan) where you'd expect to see a lot of uniformity in appearence, you actually saw a good deal of diversity (including Ser Bryant) for both mages and Templars (and honestly everyone else) alike.

In DA2 you don't...and the appearences nearly the same in each group but different between them.  That's when I started to smell a rat.

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 12 avril 2011 - 01:00 .

[TJPags]

Wait, is this thread now discussing racism and Count Dracula?

[Torax]

TJPags wrote...

Wait, is this thread now discussing racism and Count Dracula?

Can you expect any less from IanPolaris?

[Rifneno]

laecraft wrote...

All this talk about Orsino makes me want to go back to the beginning of act 3 and side with him all over again. He's...gah, I'm just in love with him. His art, lines, voice...Easily the most passionate character in the game. Excluding Arishok, of course.

Like many, I was devastated when he turned on me at the end. Still, my Hawke tried to console me when it happened. I think he said something like, "An act of desperation." Felt a little better when I knew that Hawke wasn't blaming Orsino.

And now I think of it, it wasn't Orsino's fault. It's all the deadline and lack of choices. Orsino wants all pro-mages to know that he appreciates your help, and if he wasn't forced by the Fate, he'd fight with you until the end.

Pretty sure it's Anders who says that, not Hawke.  Also, you scare me.

[The Baconer]

Paeyne wrote...
Ridiculous?  I don't think so.

The Templars authority is derived from the Chantry.  If they are given a great deal of autonomy it is because the Chantry allows that autonomy.  From what I have seen there was absolutely no oversight in Kirkwall.  Elthina knew a great deal of what the Templars may be doing and did nothing.  This seemed to have been from some vain hope that things would all sort of work out.  No investigations, no questioning of Meridith, nothing.  (All of which were in here complete authority to do.)   That speaks to me of complete incompetance and negligence than anything Meridith did.

Also, Meridith was not incompetent, she was insane.  Even after years of influence under the idol she was able to speak eloquently and succinctly, far better than Bartrand was able to do even after much longer exposure.  She was also was a competent leader for the many years previous to receiving the idol.  A testiment to her strength of will and purpose is that the player didn't realize how barking mad she was till she pulled out that Lyrium sword.

Unfortunately, in the game, we go from 0 to 60 in ten seconds rather than see the descent of the Templars into corruption reasonable step by reasonable step.

Again, I'm not trying to absolve any side (mages, templars, chantry) of any blame, but I believe Meredith's tyranny and incompetence played a part in Kirkwall's situation as much as the Chantry's policies did or the number of blood mages did. Even before obtaining the idol there was a large amount of mages escaping and Alrik making mages Tranquil. I don't know if mages were mostly confined to their cells back then but given the Kirkwall Circle's reputation, I believe it to be the case.

And like Elthina should have been questioning Meredith's actions, Meredith should have been straightening out her own knights. While Elthina is above her in the Chantry, Meredith's duty is leading part of its militant arm and both the templars and the Circle are under her authority, and it's her responsiblity to manage them. Saying Elthina is responsible for problems in Meredith's chain of command is like saying Congress is responsible for questionable conduct within the Armed Forces.

[stobie]

TJPags wrote...

Wait, is this thread now discussing racism and Count Dracula?

And curvy tri-head snake staves that mean something.

Also, Count Dracula was just misunderstood!

[Paeyne]

The Baconer wrote...

Paeyne wrote...
Ridiculous?  I don't think so.

The Templars authority is derived from the Chantry.  If they are given a great deal of autonomy it is because the Chantry allows that autonomy.  From what I have seen there was absolutely no oversight in Kirkwall.  Elthina knew a great deal of what the Templars may be doing and did nothing.  This seemed to have been from some vain hope that things would all sort of work out.  No investigations, no questioning of Meridith, nothing.  (All of which were in here complete authority to do.)   That speaks to me of complete incompetance and negligence than anything Meridith did.

Also, Meridith was not incompetent, she was insane.  Even after years of influence under the idol she was able to speak eloquently and succinctly, far better than Bartrand was able to do even after much longer exposure.  She was also was a competent leader for the many years previous to receiving the idol.  A testiment to her strength of will and purpose is that the player didn't realize how barking mad she was till she pulled out that Lyrium sword.

Unfortunately, in the game, we go from 0 to 60 in ten seconds rather than see the descent of the Templars into corruption reasonable step by reasonable step.

Again, I'm not trying to absolve any side (mages, templars, chantry) of any blame, but I believe Meredith's tyranny and incompetence played a part in Kirkwall's situation as much as the Chantry's policies did or the number of blood mages did. Even before obtaining the idol there was a large amount of mages escaping and Alrik making mages Tranquil. I don't know if mages were mostly confined to their cells back then but given the Kirkwall Circle's reputation, I believe it to be the case.

And like Elthina should have been questioning Meredith's actions, Meredith should have been straightening out her own knights. While Elthina is above her in the Chantry, Meredith's duty is leading part of its militant arm and both the templars and the Circle are under her authority, and it's her responsiblity to manage them. Saying Elthina is responsible for problems in Meredith's chain of command is like saying Congress is responsible for questionable conduct within the Armed Forces.

As far as Merideth goes, you cannot expect rational thought from someone who has lost the capacity to reason, no matter how reasonable they may appear.

As a Canadian, I admit there is a great deal about the US political system that I simply don't understand.  I can say that if our Minister of Defence gave the military the right to slaughter entire groups of people and then walked away, he would be tossed out of office at the very least and would probably face criminal charges.  Not that our military would even consider such an option.

[TJPags]

stobie wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Wait, is this thread now discussing racism and Count Dracula?

And curvy tri-head snake staves that mean something.

Also, Count Dracula was just misunderstood!

Well, hey, curvy tri-head snake staves are all the rage in Orlais this summer, you know.

Count Dracula is is vastly misunderstood.  He's a very deep, complex individual.

People just get turned off by the whole "darkness and cobwebs" thing.  All he needs is an interior decorator.

[stobie]

And he bites. Biting hurts. Biting is bad.

[TJPags]

stobie wrote...

And he bites. Biting hurts. Biting is bad.

Well, not always . . . .

[nightscrawl]

Captmorgan72 wrote...

unless you are playing a darkside mage. The freaking first enchanter of kirkwall is close friends with a psychotic blood mage that Orsino is helping with his experiments. I don't blame Meredith at all with her attitude about blood mages being everywhere, because they mostly were. It's too bad she had to lose her mind because of that damn idol, she was a champion against dark magic. Even if I play as a mage, I find myself supporting the templars, mostly Cullen though, after Meredith goes nuts. There is no denying that magic is extremely dangerous and that is why the circles exist to begin with. Don't fix what isn't broken. The world saw what happened when mages are left without checks and balances, when the Tevinter Mages attempted to overthrow the Maker.

It's all fine and dandy when other mages are imprisoned and you're not, right?