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[SIx_Foot_Imp]

So I see the discussion has drifted but if I could respond to the original debate. The game spends an enormous amount of time trying to show your character that both choices are wrong. they are trying to make a political or philisophical point, to force the player make an agonizing choice but they just end up making the choice meaningless. Hawke was clearly shown that both sides are evil and from what he/she knows this is how the world is, so any choice he makes is an emotional selfish one based on friends and feeling and not on any moralism. even if you meta game to research every side and find out every thing you could the choice is still between a rotten apple and a rottten tomatoe: a choice of flavour with no substance.  Then the developers compound the problem by giving you black and white options to a problem they specifically made a moral greyzone. FInally they completely destroy the meaning of your so called choice by making a static ending.If you want to be a moral person  the only reason to ever side with an evil group is if the people you love are connected to that groupand you are protecting them.


The final choice left a bitter taste in my mouth both because it was pointless and because the only moral choices (killing them both or leving them alone) were inaccessible.

[The Baconer]

Paeyne wrote...
As far as Merideth goes, you cannot expect rational thought from someone who has lost the capacity to reason, no matter how reasonable they may appear.

What I'm saying is that a lot of the problems in Kirkwall's Circle happened even before Meredith obtained the idol. I doubt she would have made it to Knight Commander if she was as insane as she ended up.

As a Canadian, I admit there is a great deal about the US political system that I simply don't understand.  I can say that if our Minister of Defence gave the military the right to slaughter entire groups of people and then walked away, he would be tossed out of office at the very least and would probably face criminal charges.  Not that our military would even consider such an option.

I'll try to frame it differently. Imagine that I'm part of an international company, and my duty is to oversee all of a specific branch's facilities. Now, let's say that the manager of one of these facilities makes quite a few bad calls, or ignores it when employees under their authority take part in questionable practices. It get's bad enough to cause a bit of a scandal, and as a result it hurts our revenue and reputation. Now, since the facility in question happened to fall under my jurisdiction, should I have investigated if given clues that something fishy was happening? Yes. But should I also be able to expect a facility's manager to be able to exercise proper conduct, and at least attempt to square out any problems occuring under their authority? Yes.

[sphinxess]

IanPolaris wrote...

Orsino doesn't look like an untrustrly inhuman Dracula type to you just by looking at him? Really??? Not even with this three-snake staff??

-Polaris

Naw - I thought it would really go well with Merrills' white outfit and hoped I could sneak it away from him...

[Joy Divison]

IanPolaris wrote...

Filament wrote...

The problem here is how sure you are that this couldn't possibly be a coincidence.

At first I thought it was coincidence truth be told.  I didn't notice it on the conscious level until my fourth playthrough when I started keeping track on paper just to be sure I wasn't seeing something that wasn't there.  I wasnt.

I then went back and played DAO through Lothering again (where again you see a fair number of templars) with the mage origin (where you see a fair number of mages).

No accident.

In DAO, in a land (Fereldan) where you'd expect to see a lot of uniformity in appearence, you actually saw a good deal of diversity (including Ser Bryant) for both mages and Templars (and honestly everyone else) alike.

In DA2 you don't...and the appearences nearly the same in each group but different between them.  That's when I started to smell a rat.

-Polaris

Boy you're just full of unintentional comedy tonight.

Why is it, exactly, that I'd expect to see a lot of uniformity in appearence in Fereldan?  You do understand that human migration and ethnic-cultural "mixing," for the lack of a better word has been one of the constants of human history.  The gene pools of premodern populations were actually quite diverse.

And Orsino looks like Count Dracula?  It's been awhile since I've eaten Coco Puffs but sorry, I don't see it.

What bothers me is that our society does how issues with race, essentialism, and sexism which aren't taken seriously bc/ all too often arrogant people cry "RACISM!" when it just isn't there.

[Torax]

Joy Divison wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Filament wrote...

The problem here is how sure you are that this couldn't possibly be a coincidence.

At first I thought it was coincidence truth be told.  I didn't notice it on the conscious level until my fourth playthrough when I started keeping track on paper just to be sure I wasn't seeing something that wasn't there.  I wasnt.

I then went back and played DAO through Lothering again (where again you see a fair number of templars) with the mage origin (where you see a fair number of mages).

No accident.

In DAO, in a land (Fereldan) where you'd expect to see a lot of uniformity in appearence, you actually saw a good deal of diversity (including Ser Bryant) for both mages and Templars (and honestly everyone else) alike.

In DA2 you don't...and the appearences nearly the same in each group but different between them.  That's when I started to smell a rat.

-Polaris

Boy you're just full of unintentional comedy tonight.

Why is it, exactly, that I'd expect to see a lot of uniformity in appearence in Fereldan?  You do understand that human migration and ethnic-cultural "mixing," for the lack of a better word has been one of the constants of human history.  The gene pools of premodern populations were actually quite diverse.

And Orsino looks like Count Dracula?  It's been awhile since I've eaten Coco Puffs but sorry, I don't see it.

What bothers me is that our society does how issues with race, essentialism, and sexism which aren't taken seriously bc/ all too often arrogant people cry "RACISM!" when it just isn't there.

Just another effort on his part to prove in some way that mages are victimized by Bioware I'm sure. Cause they have nothing better to do then sitting in Polaris' head whispering secret messages of oppresion and hate. They also chain up any wizards they find and then Sacrifice them at the start of every Fiscal Quarter.

[stobie]

Didn't someone from Bioware point out that the vast majority of players are siding with the mages, & that this is what they expected? From my run through, I saw no reason to side with the templars. Only later did I think about it from another, possibly less obvious angle. (ok, and I'm still not there - the creepy 'in my chambers' line ended my last wanna-be templar-friend in 'delete.') So if they're trying to drum up subliminal, anti-various-races feeling, it must not quite be working.

If anything, I think they drew Orsino to look a bit pale and weak - not evil. It was weakness that doomed him, either way - if he's your friend or enemy. I don't see a lot of dark, evil people, so I'm not sure where that comes from at all.

Mages could just as easily be reversed from oppressed to oppressor, depending on location, so I can't see the slightest agenda there, either - other than 'power corrupts the corruptible.'

[noneofyourbussines77]

Forget pro-templar or pro-mage, all of them are crazy. I say put an end to the pustule that is kirkwall. All hail the qunari. Death to the fools!

[Rockpopple]

Shoulda kept the Arishok as Viscount. He'd've put the Templars and Mages in their place. Of course there would have been a war with some outside country that would have razed Kirkwall to the ground.... sorry, I'm failing to see a negative about this. Arishok for Viscount!

[Torax]

Shok ebasit hissra. Meraad astaarit, meraad itwasit, aban aqun. Maraas shokra. Anaan esaam Qun.

[TheJist]

Ian I was seeing your side until you mentioned that racism and how we subconsciously are biased against seriously you are sounding almost as insane Meredith right now.

Modifié par TheJist, 12 avril 2011 - 02:59 .

[stobie]

All hail the Qun.

[Torax]

stobie wrote...

All hail the Qun.

Anaan esaam Qun.

[IanPolaris]

TheJist wrote...

Ian I was seeing your side until you mentioned that racism and how we subconsciously are biased against seriously you are sounding almost as insane Meredith right now.

It's not crazy.  It's simply against political correctness to say it.  The fact is that we subconsciously discriminate against those that don't look like us.  Everyone does this.  Even babies do it.  It's been confirmed study after study (and ad companies DO take advantage of this).  The appearence and sound of the DA2 characters are not random either.  I think it's noteworthy and not in a good way that the Templars "look" like their target demographic (idealized of course) and the mages don't.

Do people automatically make their decisions based on this? No.  Does it influence that decision on a sub-conscious level (and is yet one more way the game is stacked against mages)?

Oh yes.....

-Polaris

[NvVanity]

IanPolaris wrote...

TheJist wrote...

Ian I was seeing your side until you mentioned that racism and how we subconsciously are biased against seriously you are sounding almost as insane Meredith right now.

It's not crazy.  It's simply against political correctness to say it.  The fact is that we subconsciously discriminate against those that don't look like us.  Everyone does this.  Even babies do it.  It's been confirmed study after study (and ad companies DO take advantage of this).  The appearence and sound of the DA2 characters are not random either.  I think it's noteworthy and not in a good way that the Templars "look" like their target demographic (idealized of course) and the mages don't.

Do people automatically make their decisions based on this? No.  Does it influence that decision on a sub-conscious level (and is yet one more way the game is stacked against mages)?

Oh yes.....

-Polaris

Might just be me but you are starting to sound a bit mad.

Might want to put the Lyrium sword down. Would you like to come for a walk around the Wounded Coast? It's a fine evening for a patrol. We can talk about blades.

[DPSSOC]

I understand that the whole design of the game, of the universe really, is meant to evoke some level of sympathy for the mages  They're regularly portrayed as oppressed, jailed for something they didn't choose and have no control over, and we meet a good number of kindly decent mages.  My problem is that all the kindly decent mages are in DA:O where as I can count the number of mages I encounter who aren't bat**** insane and/or trying to kill me in DA2 on one hand with fingers to spare.  I no fan of how the Templars of Kirkwall are running their operation, but when pratically ever free mage I meet is an evil psycho abomination, bloodmage, or combo it doesn't give me much faith in the rest of them.

It's like if a parent was really strict and hard on their kids, but as soon as you took away their supervision the kids went off the wall loopey (destroying property, attaking other kids, etc.) you may not approve of their parenting, but you're not exactly eager to let the kids run free.  Had this taken place with my Warden in Fereldan I'd be behind it 100%. I've met enough Fereldan mages to know that people like Uldred are the minority.  In my Hawke's experience mages like Decimus and Idunna (sp?) are the rule, not the exception.

[IanPolaris]

*sigh* Denial ain't just a river in Egypt. It's a fact that people favor (even subconsciously) those that look like themselves and given that game companies have total control over character appearence, that matters.

-Polaris

[KnightofPhoenix]

IanPolaris wrote...

*sigh* Denial ain't just a river in Egypt. It's a fact that people favor (even subconsciously) those that look like themselves and given that game companies have total control over character appearence, that matters.

-Polaris

I would replace "favor" with "easier to identify with at first glance".

[TheAwesomologist]

The Baconer wrote...

TheAwesomologist wrote...
It's implied she's been abused by some templars.

I've heard of Alain's implied abuses, but whenever I talk to Grace in the Gallows the sow just blames me for her capture.

Just replayed the quest and yes, it is Alain who implies the abuse, not Grace.

My mistake for not knowing which mages get abused...

[IanPolaris]

DPSSOC wrote...

It's like if a parent was really strict and hard on their kids, but as soon as you took away their supervision the kids went off the wall loopey (destroying property, attaking other kids, etc.) you may not approve of their parenting, but you're not exactly eager to let the kids run free.  Had this taken place with my Warden in Fereldan I'd be behind it 100%. I've met enough Fereldan mages to know that people like Uldred are the minority.  In my Hawke's experience mages like Decimus and Idunna (sp?) are the rule, not the exception.

The irony is (and it applies with mages too) is that if a parent is too strict and certainly if the parent is downright abusive, it's far likelier that the children will be out of control and/or abusive themselves.  It's well known that abusive parents were very often abuse victims themselves.

-Polaris

[The Baconer]

IanPolaris wrote...

*sigh* Denial ain't just a river in Egypt.

-Polaris

It goes both ways.

[IanPolaris]

Filament wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Do people automatically make their decisions based on this? No.  Does it influence that decision on a sub-conscious level (and is yet one more way the game is stacked against mages)?

Oh yes.....

-Polaris

I still contend that you're making the influence out to be more significant than it is, and that your conclusion that BioWare must have made these characters with the intent to manipulate this fact is unfounded.

I respect (if disagree) with this PoV.  I came to the conclusion only reluctantly and only after multiple plays of DA2 and DAO and cross comparing.

-Polaris

[Torax]

It's just that the Crazy Blood Mages have to be crammed on us. In particular they had to really be pushed in Act 3 since there wasn't Qunari to worry about. This was all to keep it in your minds that maybe Mages are not always victims. All of it was to help some to start thinking "Maybe it's good to kill them. Even though they weren't the ones that blew up the chantry". This was to help counter the Right of Annulment.

I think the easier solution would have been to show earlier that Orsino is as bad as Meredith but if they truly showed all players that he helped kill the mother? Many would just side with Meredith for that and not even ponder others they may start killing who were not blood mages just guilty by proximity.

[IanPolaris]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

*sigh* Denial ain't just a river in Egypt. It's a fact that people favor (even subconsciously) those that look like themselves and given that game companies have total control over character appearence, that matters.

-Polaris

I would replace "favor" with "easier to identify with at first glance".

Even babies will gravitate to "us" (those that look like them in appearence) vis "them" (those that do not). I am not condonin this by a long chalk.  It's simply an instinctive part of our nature that most businesses with a good marketing know perfectly well.

-Polaris