484 réponses à ce sujet

[Torax]

IanPolaris wrote...

TheJist wrote...

Ian I was seeing your side until you mentioned that racism and how we subconsciously are biased against seriously you are sounding almost as insane Meredith right now.

It's not crazy.  It's simply against political correctness to say it.  The fact is that we subconsciously discriminate against those that don't look like us.  Everyone does this.  Even babies do it.  It's been confirmed study after study (and ad companies DO take advantage of this).  The appearence and sound of the DA2 characters are not random either.  I think it's noteworthy and not in a good way that the Templars "look" like their target demographic (idealized of course) and the mages don't.

Do people automatically make their decisions based on this? No.  Does it influence that decision on a sub-conscious level (and is yet one more way the game is stacked against mages)?

Oh yes.....

-Polaris

So wait is your goal now to just thinking that everyone who doesn't side with the mages is Racist? Are you still so desparate to finding why people don't agree with you to apply some absurd logic to it? So what happens if they're brown skinned and still want to kill Alain?

[LobselVith8]

TJPags wrote...

Wait, is this thread now discussing racism and Count Dracula?

Apparently so, but I don't see anything wrong with a civil discuss over the issue of race in Dragon Age. It's not like this is the first time diversity has been brought up in regards to the way characters are depicted in the story.

[stobie]

Is all this based on one dark-skinned mage, being Alain? Because when I think of DA2 mages, I picture pale (sometimes creepy-pale like zinc-lipstick woman) females, or delicate males. (Qunari aside) 2 of the worst are older, very pale men. (the necromancer & Grace's bf - who Grace had to have seen naked, & so her punishment is complete) There's one dark kid, who is pretty neutral, and probably abused. How does this show a bent toward making mages 'other?' If anything, they're shown as feeble more than anything else. (Orsino isn't going to muscle through much - but I do love when he walks alone up to the Qunari.) Because of the templar gear, which obscures most everything including gender, I tend to think of mages as more often female.

I assume when they make any character, they give it a brief history. My guess is, they've made Alain something like Isabella - they're putting people in of Thedas nationalities - not trying to somehow direct the masses to prefer one choice over another in their game.

I keep feeling I'm falling for something here... I am, aren't I? Ugh. I hate that.

[Paeyne]

The Baconer wrote...

What I'm saying is that a lot of the problems in Kirkwall's Circle happened even before Meredith obtained the idol. I doubt she would have made it to Knight Commander if she was as insane as she ended up. 

I don't really understand this statement.  To the best of my understanding Meridith, while strict, was not insane at this time.  She wouldn't come into possession of the idol until the the beginning of Act 2.  I also don't see the attrocities happening in the Gallows during Act 1 (although they may have been and we just don't know).  Mainly I see the 'all apostates are evil' and 'the order dictates' kind of stuff.  There are certainly nut cases.  The Templar who wants to Tranquil all mages as a 'solution' is an example, but both Meridith and the Divine turn him down.

The Baconer wrote...

I'll try to frame it differently. Imagine that I'm part of an international company, and my duty is to oversee all of a specific branch's facilities. Now, let's say that the manager of one of these facilities makes quite a few bad calls, or ignores it when employees under their authority take part in questionable practices. It get's bad enough to cause a bit of a scandal, and as a result it hurts our revenue and reputation. Now, since the facility in question happened to fall under my jurisdiction, should I have investigated if given clues that something fishy was happening? Yes. 

Doesn't this depend on the questionable practices?

If an exployee accuses another of sexual harrasment and you find out the manager dismissed these charges out of hand would you simply let it go?

If you started hearing stories of embezzlement, theft, violence and other things in that office would you just call the manager up and take his word that everthing was fine?

Remember also, that under the corporate charter, this manager has the right to execute everyone in the office if you happen to go on vacation for a week.

If the Templars were separate from the Chantry I might agree with you, but their authority comes from the Chantry.  Without the Chantry they have no authority of their own (unless I am missing some obscure thing in lore).

Elthina had the authority, and I would argue the moral duty step in.  She did nothing.  The Chantry is responsible for empowering the Right of Annulment and Elthina is responsible for allowing the Templar/Circle situation escalate to that point by her willfull inaction. 

The Baconer wrote...

But should I also be able to expect a facility's manager to be able
to exercise proper conduct, and at least attempt to square out any
problems occuring under their authority? Yes. 

Within the bounds of reason, certainly.  I would argue that those bounds were well exceeded by the beginning of Act 3.  Using your example, there comes a point were your inaction would be considered negligence.  You would be fired at the least and may be open to either criminal or civil action.

Modifié par Paeyne, 12 avril 2011 - 03:55 .

[Rifneno]

NvVanity wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

TheJist wrote...

Ian I was seeing your side until you mentioned that racism and how we subconsciously are biased against seriously you are sounding almost as insane Meredith right now.

It's not crazy.  It's simply against political correctness to say it.  The fact is that we subconsciously discriminate against those that don't look like us.  Everyone does this.  Even babies do it.  It's been confirmed study after study (and ad companies DO take advantage of this).  The appearence and sound of the DA2 characters are not random either.  I think it's noteworthy and not in a good way that the Templars "look" like their target demographic (idealized of course) and the mages don't.

Do people automatically make their decisions based on this? No.  Does it influence that decision on a sub-conscious level (and is yet one more way the game is stacked against mages)?

Oh yes.....

-Polaris

Might just be me but you are starting to sound a bit mad.

Might want to put the Lyrium sword down. Would you like to come for a walk around the Wounded Coast? It's a fine evening for a patrol. We can talk about blades.

He's 100% right on the scientific part of it.  The only question is whether it was done purposely here or not.  I tend to think not, if only because it'd open a can of worms better left sealed if it was ever confirmed.  People are REALLY sensitive about anything involving race.  Which is why everyone is freaking out at Polaris.  If anyone were to say there would be this reaction if he was basing it off the color of hair or clothes or something, I'd say that's a flat out lie.  Not to say they don't use subconscious cues.  Ads, movies, games... why do you think evil stuff is always red?  We have an innate instinct to assoicate red with danger or evil.  Same with black.  And I'm not talking about race.  If primitive man sees one of his fingers is turning black (necrotic), should he think "Ooo, that's pretty" or "THAT can't be good.."  If he sees a cave with red splatters on the wall, does he think "I should lay down for a nap here, looks safe and cosy" or "RUN AWAY!"?  Humans have a lot of subconscous programming which despite being obsolete in our modern society, hasn't been obsolete long enough to be out of our DNA.  Like it or not, prefering our own race is one of them.

But again, I necessarily think it's being done here.  At the same time, people should stop freaking out and think he's calling everyone racist because he's acknowledging scientific fact.

[Torax]

LobselVith8 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Wait, is this thread now discussing racism and Count Dracula?

Apparently so, but I don't see anything wrong with a civil discuss over the issue of race in Dragon Age. It's not like this is the first time diversity has been brought up in regards to the way characters are depicted in the story.

It's a problem if the one that is starting it tries to imply that people are only against mages cause subconciously they are racist...

[KnightofPhoenix]

Torax wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Wait, is this thread now discussing racism and Count Dracula?

Apparently so, but I don't see anything wrong with a civil discuss over the issue of race in Dragon Age. It's not like this is the first time diversity has been brought up in regards to the way characters are depicted in the story.

It's a problem if the one that is starting it tries to imply that people are only against mages cause subconciously they are racist...

Comments have also been made that Meredith looks like the "idealized Aryan" 

[DPSSOC]

IanPolaris wrote...
The irony is (and it applies with mages too) is that if a parent is too strict and certainly if the parent is downright abusive, it's far likelier that the children will be out of control and/or abusive themselves.  It's well known that abusive parents were very often abuse victims themselves.

-Polaris

Of course you're right, and certainly changes need to be made, but letting the out of control children out on their own is not the answer.  What we need is a gradual transition; slacken (not remove) Templar oversight, grant mages greater freedoms, etc. over the course of 3 or 4 decades.  What all proponents of mage-freedom seem to want is an immediate transition, and I can't approve of that.  If you take the oppressed and immediately put them on even ground with their oppressor they will seek retribution, they will become opressors themselves.

If Anders got his way it would serve no purpose but to prove Fenris right, because the mages will take their newfound freedom and they will attempt to set themselves up as magisters.  I'm not saying it'd be an at of malice or hate, but the only way the oppressed know to protect themselves from opression is to become the oppressor.  In order to protect themselves, to ensure that never again would they be caged, they would use their powers to ensure all non-mages are kept beneath them.

[NvVanity]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Torax wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Wait, is this thread now discussing racism and Count Dracula?

Apparently so, but I don't see anything wrong with a civil discuss over the issue of race in Dragon Age. It's not like this is the first time diversity has been brought up in regards to the way characters are depicted in the story.

It's a problem if the one that is starting it tries to imply that people are only against mages cause subconciously they are racist...

Comments have also been made that Meredith looks like the "idealized Aryan" 

And Anderfels is based off of Germany!

[Torax]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Torax wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Wait, is this thread now discussing racism and Count Dracula?

Apparently so, but I don't see anything wrong with a civil discuss over the issue of race in Dragon Age. It's not like this is the first time diversity has been brought up in regards to the way characters are depicted in the story.

It's a problem if the one that is starting it tries to imply that people are only against mages cause subconciously they are racist...

Comments have also been made that Meredith looks like the "idealized Aryan" 

She just looked like a crazy old **** to me.

[LobselVith8]

Joy Divison wrote...

And Orsino looks like Count Dracula?  It's been awhile since I've eaten Coco Puffs but sorry, I don't see it.

Technically, he doesn't look like Dracula. The image I think some people are thinking of is Nosferatu, from the F.W. Murnau's German silent classic that was a loose (and technically illegal) adaption of Bram Stoker's Dracula made in 1922.

[KnightofPhoenix]

NvVanity wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Torax wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Wait, is this thread now discussing racism and Count Dracula?

Apparently so, but I don't see anything wrong with a civil discuss over the issue of race in Dragon Age. It's not like this is the first time diversity has been brought up in regards to the way characters are depicted in the story.

It's a problem if the one that is starting it tries to imply that people are only against mages cause subconciously they are racist...

Comments have also been made that Meredith looks like the "idealized Aryan" 

And Anderfels is based off of Germany!

And Anders is from there!

Hmmm, is Anders a spartacist revolutionary?

[NvVanity]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

NvVanity wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Torax wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Wait, is this thread now discussing racism and Count Dracula?

Apparently so, but I don't see anything wrong with a civil discuss over the issue of race in Dragon Age. It's not like this is the first time diversity has been brought up in regards to the way characters are depicted in the story.

It's a problem if the one that is starting it tries to imply that people are only against mages cause subconciously they are racist...

Comments have also been made that Meredith looks like the "idealized Aryan" 

And Anderfels is based off of Germany!

And Anders is from there!

Hmmm, is Anders a spartacist revolutionary?

"Puts on Glenn Beck glasses and gets out chalk board"

Anders is a communist revolutionary hoping to overthrow the establishment which is currently run by fascist Templars. I shall now demonstrate through drawing a diagram on my chalkboard and communicating with hand puppets.

[LobselVith8]

Torax wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Apparently so, but I don't see anything wrong with a civil discuss over the issue of race in Dragon Age. It's not like this is the first time diversity has been brought up in regards to the way characters are depicted in the story.

It's a problem if the one that is starting it tries to imply that people are only against mages cause subconciously they are racist...

It seemed like he was pointing out that one of the few characters with a Rivanni appearance was a mage who uses blood magic and helps kidnap someone Hawke cares about. I don't see any reason we can't have a civil discussion about race, given how we're all from different backgrounds and can provide insight and dialogue into this issue.

[noneofyourbussines77]

Between Ian's claims of RACISM!! (Ironicly similar to Meredith's cries of BLOOD MAGIC!!) and the Emporor's idea's of "inisence" for blood mages, this has been a comedy gold mine.

[LobselVith8]

noneofyourbussines77 wrote...

Between Ian's claims of RACISM!! (Ironicly similar to Meredith's cries of BLOOD MAGIC!!) and the Emporor's idea's of "inisence" for blood mages, this has been a comedy gold mine.

All I saw was Ian addressing how one of the few Rivanni characters was set up as an antagonist to Hawke and Emperor Iaius is "in-character." Then again, discussions about race always go poorly. It's an issue that's quite prevelant in comics, movies, and television, but people seem more intent on not discussing it than addressing it. And I'm surprised people aren't more familiar with the vampire Count Orlok from Nosferatu.

[noneofyourbussines77]

Alin? An antagonist? Really? Thats grasping at straws. He never resits, always surrenders, and if you support the mages in "An act of mercy" he still returns with Thrask.
Also I wasn't judging what the emporor did, it is just hilarios to read

Modifié par noneofyourbussines77, 12 avril 2011 - 04:23 .

[Sharn01]

The Angry One wrote...

Gameplay wise you do realise NPC blood mages don't actually use Blood Magic, don't you?
Their spells for instance, if you edited them in to use yourself, are usable without it.
Besides my Templar can easily shut down any mage, blood mages included. They're still vunerable to a Templar's interrupts and silences.

Lorewise it would be pretty stupid for Templars to be inherently weak against blood magic, part of their purpose is to hunt maleficarum.

Lore wise Templars hunt individual mages as a group, its only in the game mechanics and action packed cutscenes that they have no trouble with them.

[IanPolaris]

noneofyourbussines77 wrote...

Alin? An antagonist? Really? Thats grasping at straws. He never resits, always surrenders, and if you support the mages in "An act of mercy" he still returns with Thrask.

He's directly involved in kidnapping either your brother/sister or your lover.  That makes him an antagonist in my book.

-Polaris

[Rifneno]

LobselVith8 wrote...

noneofyourbussines77 wrote...

Between Ian's claims of RACISM!! (Ironicly similar to Meredith's cries of BLOOD MAGIC!!) and the Emporor's idea's of "inisence" for blood mages, this has been a comedy gold mine.

All I saw was Ian addressing how one of the few Rivanni characters was set up as an antagonist to Hawke and Emperor Iaius is "in-character." Then again, discussions about race always go poorly. It's an issue that's quite prevelant in comics, movies, and television, but people seem more intent on not discussing it than addressing it. And I'm surprised people aren't more familiar with the vampire Count Orlok from Nosferatu.

I'm kind of thankful most people don't know what Nosferatu is.  There's this horrible medusa of a woman at work whom I occasionally call that; sometimes right in front of her.  I just make sure I don't let my tone give away the fact it's a horrible undead monster and people just think it means something nice.  I still chuckle to myself everytime I get away with it.

Oh, and yeah, people are never going to discuss race rationally.  Or intelligence.  Politics and religion are a given.

[The Baconer]

Paeyne wrote...
I don't really understand this statement.  To the best of my understanding Meridith, while strict, was not insane at this time.  She wouldn't come into possession of the idol until the the beginning of Act 2.  I also don't see the attrocities happening in the Gallows during Act 1 (although they may have been and we just don't know).  Mainly I see the 'all apostates are evil' and 'the order dictates' kind of stuff.  There are certainly nut cases.  The Templar who wants to Tranquil all mages as a 'solution' is an example, but both Meridith and the Divine turn him down.

We know that the mages spend most of their time confined to their cells. The Gallows is a prison, and Meredith runs it like one. And she may have turned down Ser Alrik's solution, but we also know that he's still going about illegally making mages Tranquil on his own time, and then sexually abusing them afterward. Does Meredith encourage this behavior? Why hasn't she stepped in to at least reprimand him?

Doesn't this depend on the questionable practices?

If an exployee accuses another of sexual harrasment and you find out the manager dismissed these charges out of hand would you simply let it go?

If you started hearing stories of embezzlement, theft, violence and other things in that office would you just call the manager up and take his word that everthing was fine?

Remember also, that under the corporate charter, this manager has the right to execute everyone in the office if you happen to go on vacation for a week.

If the Templars were separate from the Chantry I might agree with you, but their authority comes from the Chantry.  Without the Chantry they have no authority of their own (unless I am missing some obscure thing in lore).

Elthina had the authority, and I would argue the moral duty step in.  She did nothing.  The Chantry is responsible for empowering the Right of Annulment and Elthina is responsible for allowing the Templar/Circle situation escalate to that point by her willfull inaction.

Yes but I'm saying that Meredith is just as responsible, and it's her fault the situation would require a Grand Cleric's intervention in the first place. The Divine can't handle every duty of the Chantry alone, so to help with that we have the Grand Clerics. Even then, they can't operate an organization as large as the chantry so you have your Revered Mothers, Sisters, Brothers, Templars etc. While each one, save the Divine, answers to a superior authority, they're still expected to perform optimally in the position they're assigned. A few Chantry Brothers and Sisters are going into each others rooms at night? That's the Revered Mother's job of that respective Chantry to nip the problem at the bud and get everything squared out. If it becomes a big enough problem then yeah, the ball would be in the Grand Cleric's court, but the Revered Mother would still be at fault for not being able to bring her flock in line in the first place. It's the same thing with a Knight Commander.

[LobselVith8]

noneofyourbussines77 wrote...

Alin? An antagonist? Really? Thats grasping at straws. He never resits, always surrenders, and if you support the mages in "An act of mercy" he still returns with Thrask.
Also I wasn't judging what the emporor did, it is just hilarios to read

I never said Alain was evil incarnate, but we do meet him on two occassions where he's initially allied with groups who are hostile to Hawke. I don't see the problem in addressing that one of the few Rivanni characters is allied to antagonists, especially when we don't see the same diversity that we did in Origins (and there don't seem to be any elves with an Antivan or Rivanni appearance anymore).

[The Baconer]

LobselVith8 wrote...
It seemed like he was pointing out that one of the few characters with a Rivanni appearance was a mage who uses blood magic and helps kidnap someone Hawke cares about. I don't see any reason we can't have a civil discussion about race, given how we're all from different backgrounds and can provide insight and dialogue into this issue.

With all due respect, I don't know how we can civilly discuss whether or not Bioware knowingly gave a mage character darker skin as part of a nefarious plot to make mages look bad through the use of subconcious racism.

[IanPolaris]

Filament wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

noneofyourbussines77 wrote...

Alin? An antagonist? Really? Thats grasping at straws. He never resits, always surrenders, and if you support the mages in "An act of mercy" he still returns with Thrask.

He's directly involved in kidnapping either your brother/sister or your lover.  That makes him an antagonist in my book.

-Polaris

I thought your point was that one of the few good mages was dark-skinned.

If you will recall I clarified that point to say that he was one of the few mages you meet in Act 3 that was at all sympathetic.  The point is I strongly suspect that Bioware is using subconsious visual cues to encourage us not to trust or like Alain.  Likewise I think throughout the game,  Bioware is using subconscioyus visual cues to make us like the Templars perhaps a bit more than the actual objective dialog and other game facts justify.

That's all I'm saying.

-Polaris