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[IanPolaris]

The Baconer wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
It seemed like he was pointing out that one of the few characters with a Rivanni appearance was a mage who uses blood magic and helps kidnap someone Hawke cares about. I don't see any reason we can't have a civil discussion about race, given how we're all from different backgrounds and can provide insight and dialogue into this issue.

With all due respect, I don't know how we can civilly discuss whether or not Bioware knowingly gave a mage character darker skin as part of a nefarious plot to make mages look bad through the use of subconcious racism.

I don't see why we can't.  We can discuss the target marketing demographic for DA2 and compare that with how the Templars and mages both look.  We can compare the appearence and voice of both Meridith and Orisno to existing literary stereotypes (Orisno does fit the popular vision of Count Dracula which is NOT Nosferatu fwiw).  We can compare DA2 to DAO when it comes to diversity of appearence in all the groups. 

I have no issue with the PoV that what I am seeing is coincidence.  I don't think it is because I find the chances of that to be low, but I can accept that as a reasonable position for such a discussion.  However, the fact is that people DO subconsciously judge by appearence, and game companies DO know this, and the appearence of all the characters is entirely in bioware's hands.

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

The Baconer wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
It seemed like he was pointing out that one of the few characters with a Rivanni appearance was a mage who uses blood magic and helps kidnap someone Hawke cares about. I don't see any reason we can't have a civil discussion about race, given how we're all from different backgrounds and can provide insight and dialogue into this issue.

With all due respect, I don't know how we can civilly discuss whether or not Bioware knowingly gave a mage character darker skin as part of a nefarious plot to make mages look bad through the use of subconcious racism.

Clearly, you and I are discussing the matter with civility. When we go through the storyline and get responses from the creators, it's going to make us question different aspects of Dragon Age. It gives us pause, makes us ask questions about why they made specific decisions when they make their views clear about certain facets of the storyline. We know David Gaider has said he thought people were siding with mages almost by default. I think it's natural to address what's on our minds. I think discussion is healthly, and we can discuss this view and agree or disagree maturity and respectfully.

Btw, is it too late for the Ser Isaac armor for Dragon Age 2 on PS3? I know the Stone Prisoner DLC was still able to be downloaded despite being past the expiration date.

[stobie]

IanPolaris wrote...

noneofyourbussines77 wrote...

Alin? An antagonist? Really? Thats grasping at straws. He never resits, always surrenders, and if you support the mages in "An act of mercy" he still returns with Thrask.

He's directly involved in kidnapping either your brother/sister or your lover.  That makes him an antagonist in my book.

-Polaris

Well, so were Keran & Thrask!  Geez!  He's a little boy follower - he's one of those 'trying to get along,' as is Thrask.  That makes him nice, if rather innocent.   By that measure, all blond boys with blue eyes are fiends who will turn on you, even if you helped them out.  (hmmm)

Sympathetic mages that I can remember  - Ella, who will befriend Bethany if she survives Anders. Even Idunna 'turns good' if you send her to the chantry. Feynriel is pretty neat - and appears fairly strong.  Terrie? Something like that - she's in Grace's group & doesn't do anything weird later.  The Keeper is a saint, of course, and Merrill doesn't really do anything all that wrong. (even if you think she's going to fall to the demon, you can never be sure of that)    Ella is the only dark one of those - and they're all pretty nice, benign people.  Hawke's father sounds fine - independent, yet open-minded enough to have befriended a templar.

Elves everywhere may have to find this conversation silly and grow peevish as it continues:  

Modifié par stobie, 12 avril 2011 - 04:48 .

[LobselVith8]

stobie wrote...

Well, so were Keran & Thrask!  Geez!  He's a little boy follower - he's one of those 'trying to get along,' as is Thrask.  That makes him nice, if rather innocent.   By that measure, all blond boys with blue eyes are fiends who will turn on you, even if you helped them out.  (hmmm)

Alain is a rape victim, based on what he said in Act II. I thought he was trying to regain control over his life when he became part of Ser Thrask's anti-Meredith initiative.

[noneofyourbussines77]

Ian, by your logic is it ever possible for a character with dark skin to not be a product of racism. If he's good then according to you he's shifty because of his skin, but if he's bad then he is stereotypical.

Modifié par noneofyourbussines77, 12 avril 2011 - 04:47 .

[stobie]

LobselVith8 wrote...

stobie wrote...

Well, so were Keran & Thrask!  Geez!  He's a little boy follower - he's one of those 'trying to get along,' as is Thrask.  That makes him nice, if rather innocent.   By that measure, all blond boys with blue eyes are fiends who will turn on you, even if you helped them out.  (hmmm)

Alain is a rape victim, based on what he said in Act II. I thought he was trying to regain control over his life when he became part of Ser Thrask's anti-Meredith initiative.

I just heard that today - yup.  Pretty dark!  There are others, too, but those seem to be Alrik victims, whereas he is preyed upon by the hideous Kerras. (who is vile & very blond, of course.  Petrice is living evil in my view, & she's hardly a swarthy sort)

[IanPolaris]

noneofyourbussines77 wrote...

Ian, by your logic is it ever possible for a character with dark skin to not be a product of racism. If he's good then according to you he's shifty because of his skin, but if he's bad then he is stereotypical.

Sure you can.  If you see diversity in the various groups, then having one person of one particular color or another has far, far less impact.  Look at DAO.  Compare the Templars you see in DAO (starting with Ser Bryant) with the ones you see in DA2.

-Polaris

[stobie]

So you think they suddenly altered into this anti-mage scheme since Origins? I mean, have the writers suddenly gone nuts in your view?

I'll pay attention to templar color. (I know, statistics & 'facts' say I must be doing this already, but apparently, they're made up to prove someone else's point...) I'm having a wee bit of a hard time, since so many of them are wearing HELMS.


Wait- are there *any* dark skinned villains in this game? Or for that matter, in Origins?  Meredith - Nordic blond, Orsino - ok, elf-alien pale... but elves are pretty clearly Celtic & he's too lovable to be all bad. I refuse to count him. Petrice - ya, she's evil-pale.  The Arishok could be considered bad, if you're a zealot or *really* hate control. (which I do- but he's so funny, I can't hate him) - he's blue. Move on.  Alrik, pale.  Kerras, chunky-pale.   That zinc-lips lady - pale.  Necromancer-mum-destroyer - pale gray.  Orlesian necromancer-wannabe - French.  Fenris's master -  old white guy.  (I'm counting mostly old white guys as evil, with crazy pale younger women coming in a close second)

In Origins - Loghain is kind of tan, but he's arguably not an entire villain.  Howe is English-white.  The Elf Keeper, Zathrian? He was bald-white, and I liked him despite him being a bit of a jerk.  My most hated character wasn't bad - just so annoying as to peel paint - Connor's screeching mumma.  

Modifié par stobie, 12 avril 2011 - 04:58 .

[noneofyourbussines77]

So the only way to be not rasict is to have some very minor and unimportant dark skinned characters? Doesn't that seem hypocritical to you? Those people can never be important?

[IanPolaris]

stobie wrote...

I just heard that today - yup.  Pretty dark!  There are others, too, but those seem to be Alrik victims, whereas he is preyed upon by the hideous Kerras. (who is vile & very blond, of course.  Petrice is living evil in my view, & she's hardly a swarthy sort)

You are supposed to "like" Petrice when you first meet her.  She is a member of the Chantry who is helping people be free at personal risk.  Sure if you metagame or listen carefully, there is something 'off' about her, but her entire demenor including appearence was "trust little 'ol innocent me".

We learn the hard way that she's a snake and thus we "see through her charms" later on in the script but others clearly do not.  We aren't fooled by her anymore but we understand how mobs could be (and are) incited by her.

This is an exmple of good visual story telling (to dovetail with the actual plot of the game).

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

noneofyourbussines77 wrote...

So the only way to be not rasict is to have some very minor and unimportant dark skinned characters? Doesn't that seem hypocritical to you? Those people can never be important?

 
*sigh*  Point.  Missing it.....

If all groups showed the sort of ethinic diversity we saw in DAO, this wouldn't even be an issue (and as Lob alluded to, I am not the first to notice the like of diversity in DA2 vs DAO).

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

noneofyourbussines77 wrote...

Ian, by your logic is it ever possible for a character with dark skin to not be a product of racism. If he's good then according to you he's shifty because of his skin, but if he's bad then he is stereotypical.

I think Ian is addressing a comparison of the diversity of DA2 in contrast to DA:O when he was addressing Alain being tied to antagonists who Hawke fights against, and the "mage" comments made by David Gaider in particular since it seems the Head Writer felt people were siding with mages "almost by default."

[stobie]

I'll believe we were supposed to like Petrice if Mr Gaider swears his favorite puppy's soul on it!

[IanPolaris]

stobie wrote...

I'll believe we were supposed to like Petrice if Mr Gaider swears his favorite puppy's soul on it!

I think we are supposed to initially like Sister Petrice (esp when she keeps her Templar from acting against obvious apostates).  That is supposed to change (understandably) when you figure out that she hung you out to dry for the greater glory of the Chantry.

-Polari

[LobselVith8]

stobie wrote...

I just heard that today - yup.  Pretty dark!  There are others, too, but those seem to be Alrik victims, whereas he is preyed upon by the hideous Kerras. (who is vile & very blond, of course.  Petrice is living evil in my view, & she's hardly a swarthy sort)

I'm surprised Alain was as stable as he appeared to be, given what happened to him. It's a traumatic experience for people.

More on-topic, Act III seems to be a big reason why people feel there's an anti-mage feel to the story. Hawke is fighting mage antagonists because they think the Champion is Meredith's pawn, because the mages apparently ignore the fact that he's an apostate and/or publicly denounced the Knight-Commander before the public. It really doesn't make any sense. I'm not sure Grace's turn to the dark side makes sense, either, since we get to have an interesting insurrection starting against Meredith with a character who is interesting (Ser Thrask) and instead we have to fight Grace because she's angry Hawke didn't kill or let her go? Then we have Anders blowing up a whole building and the Harvester being "recycled" as an enemy because Orsino had to go bad (and it's explained that the reason why was to avoid making the mages seem like the good guy option). It just seems really clumpsy and I'd have preferred something that had the same strength as Act II, without a Lyrium Idol being responsible for it all.

[stobie]

But the second you meet her, she's hissing like a snake. She's pretending to be weak & ambushed, then promptly comes out with her templar bodyguard, alerting you to the fact she's a schemer & a liar. Your character notes this at once. I had absolutely no doubt about her from the second she hissed a rude word my way. My only doubt was why - but I can never quite accept the lengths to which people will go for their stupid religions.

eta - and agreed, Act 3 had some holes, not least of which that I didn't really have much emotion for either Meredith or Orsino. By this point, those who I hated or respected-feared (Arishok) were already dead & gone.

Modifié par stobie, 12 avril 2011 - 05:08 .

[IanPolaris]

Stobie,

I don't know about you, but the first tme I played it, I fell for Petrice hook, line,and sinker. Sure she had a bodyguard, but one guard against a dozen and a half Low-Town thugs == one dead templar,and one well-used Tevinter slave that was once a chantry sister.....if that sister is lucky.

I knew that and my protagonist knew that. Apparently Sister Petrice did not.

-Polaris

[Peer of the Empire]

Petrice's high cheekbones and small eyes are masculine features, perhaps to make her dangerous and unsavory excursions more believable, and make her seem untrustworthy.  EDIT Not that I trust doe eyed girls and their adventures.  Rather, Petrice is more likely to have violent and malevolent plans.

When she opened her mouth I immediately disliked her. Thinking back, I was even more of a warmonger than she is, but I took her plans to be foolish and idealistic meddling, pointless moralizing that risked a premature war that could cost tens of thousands of lives or more and destroy nations. Her naivete only added to my negative opinion.

Modifié par Peer of the Empire, 12 avril 2011 - 05:30 .

[Rifneno]

IanPolaris wrote...

Stobie,

I don't know about you, but the first tme I played it, I fell for Petrice hook, line,and sinker. Sure she had a bodyguard, but one guard against a dozen and a half Low-Town thugs == one dead templar,and one well-used Tevinter slave that was once a chantry sister.....if that sister is lucky.

I knew that and my protagonist knew that. Apparently Sister Petrice did not.

-Polaris

Ditto.  I totally fell for her act.  Then again, I helped Anders gather bomb-making ingredients seriously expecting a potion that'd seperate him from Justice (WHY can't we just get some lyrium and Connor it out?!) so maybe I'm not the best judge.  =/

Filament wrote...
They're starting to sound like some news corporation that always presents both sides of an argument as if they're perfectly balanced even if they're really not. Perhaps this is what happens when you take "it must be grey!" too far...

Pretty much.  I wish they'd just accept that the whole "moral grey area" thing failed here.

[Paeyne]

The Baconer wrote...

Yes but I'm saying that Meredith is just as responsible, and it's her fault the situation would require a Grand Cleric's intervention in the first place. The Divine can't handle every duty of the Chantry alone, so to help with that we have the Grand Clerics. Even then, they can't operate an organization as large as the chantry so you have your Revered Mothers, Sisters, Brothers, Templars etc. While each one, save the Divine, answers to a superior authority, they're still expected to perform optimally in the position they're assigned. A few Chantry Brothers and Sisters are going into each others rooms at night? That's the Revered Mother's job of that respective Chantry to nip the problem at the bud and get everything squared out. If it becomes a big enough problem then yeah, the ball would be in the Grand Cleric's court, but the Revered Mother would still be at fault for not being able to bring her flock in line in the first place. It's the same thing with a Knight Commander.

I am obviously not getting accross my point.

If you give someone the authority to do something you are responsible for their misuse of that authority if they could not have performed that misuse without it.

Let us pretend, just for a moment, that I am the only person that can authorize the use of guns.  I hand someone a gun and say 'do not use this except under these narrow set of circumstances' and then walk away. 

The person later goes crazy and shoots a dozen people in a shopping center.

I am responsible for those deaths because the shooter could not have shot anyone without me handing them the gun.

I am doubley responsible for those deaths if I did nothing to monitor the use of the individuals that I gave such lethal authority to.

Now, I might be somewhat mitigated in responsiblity if there was no indications of problems, I monitored the use of that authority closely and the person just went off one day without warning, but I would still have to shoulder some responsiblity because I handed the person the gun.

Elthina ignored her duty and responsibility to monitor her direct subordinate and likely died as a result

Meridith would not have been able to do what she did if the Right of Annulment did not exist.

The Right does exist because the Divine allows it to exist.  The authority to enforce the Right flows from her.  If she endorses the Right than she is responsible for its use.  If I hand out guns I must accept the risk that they may be misused and take responsibility for that.

[Lucy Glitter]

IanPolaris wrote...
Exactly what I was trying to get at.  I am not trying to say that Bioware or all gamers are racist.  I am saying that in a western audience, there will (still unfortunately) be some subconcious racist overtones that I think Bioware (and Ad companies do this all the time as well) is deliberately using to further subconciously stack the deck even more against siding with the mages.

It's sad that this is almost impossible to discuss in a civilized manner.

-Polaris

IanPolaris wrote...

*sigh* Denial ain't just a river in Egypt. It's a fact that people favor (even subconsciously) those that look like themselves and given that game companies have total control over character appearence, that matters.

-Polaris

[Addai]

LobselVith8 wrote...

It seemed like he was pointing out that one of the few characters with a Rivanni appearance was a mage who uses blood magic and helps kidnap someone Hawke cares about. I don't see any reason we can't have a civil discussion about race, given how we're all from different backgrounds and can provide insight and dialogue into this issue.

You mean besides the Rivaini squad member and LI who is the iconic female used to the market the entire game??

Holy crap.  You dudes take this pro-mage stuff to ridiculous extremes.

[LobselVith8]

Addai67 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It seemed like he was pointing out that one of the few characters with a Rivanni appearance was a mage who uses blood magic and helps kidnap someone Hawke cares about. I don't see any reason we can't have a civil discussion about race, given how we're all from different backgrounds and can provide insight and dialogue into this issue.

You mean besides the Rivaini squad member and LI who is the iconic female used to the market the entire game??

Holy crap.  You dudes take this pro-mage stuff to ridiculous extremes.

Did you read what I said, or were you inclined to disagree with me with no regard for what I actually said?

So far, I never expressed an opinion on the matter of race and how it relates to Alain. All I said was that I thought we could have a civil discussion and be respectful of each other. Why do you feel like insulting me for saying this?

Modifié par LobselVith8, 12 avril 2011 - 05:56 .