484 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

Torax wrote...

From what it says the code is just in your dead space 2 box. I'm not sure it truly can expire as long as a box still has a code in it.

Thanks!

[Torax]

Nerys wrote...

Funny, I feel the polar opposite than the OP. I have a really hard time siding with the templars. I just feel like the mages are innocent until proven guilty. Plenty of time to jail them, make them tranquil, or kill them, if they are TRULY guilty of a crime.
Of course I have a devil of a time punishing the most guilty mage in the game. Dammit Anders!

I only spared him the first time. Now I kill him every time. He deserves it.

[nightscrawl]

SIx_Foot_Imp wrote...

Hawke was clearly shown that both sides are evil and from what he/she knows this is how the world is, so any choice he makes is an emotional selfish one based on friends and feeling and not on any moralism. ... Then the developers compound the problem by giving you black and white options to a problem they specifically made a moral greyzone.

You can't say that both sides are evil, and then call it a moral grey zone.

I personally believe that mages should be allowed to police themselves. If there are even a few leaders like First Enchanter Irving and Wynne who can persuade others, it's not unreasonable that it could work. The problem with the current system working that way is that the Templars are the military arm of the Chantry. As long as those two are connected, the Templars cannot act as an independent law enforcement agency (and they are needed because of their anti-magic abilities).

It's not unrealistic to think that Hawke, especially a warrior or rogue Hawke who grew up in a house with (non-evil) mages, might feel the same as I do. Then Hawke goes to Kirkwall and through the years has various encounters with mages that aren't so pleasant and stars to wonder about the influence and power of magic. S/he sees how mages can be corrupted and the Templars working to combat that influence. Hawke works with Thrask, who is shown to be a decent man, and Cullen who is reasonable; but also encounters Kerras and Alrik who are the worst the Order has to offer.

Observing all of these things, why is it so hard to believe that someone might have a moderate viewpoint? I don't think it comes from a place of emotion, rather their personal experience in dealing with both sides.

I disagree that Hawke was "shown that both sides are evil." You have it exactly right when you call it a moral grey zone, because IT IS. In each quest, you can pick and choose which side to help. Help/release the Starkhaven blood mages, let Anders kill/save the poor girl Alrik is terrorizing, let Keran stay/be kicked out of the Templar order. It is entirely possible to choose paths in the game that are middle ground. In fact, the dialogue option "not all mages do that" comes up a few times. There is also a conversation with Fenris where you can say that the bad mages (as opposed to the non-bad mages - I doubt Fenris thinks there are "good" ones) should be punished/locked up.

The only problem comes in the climax of the game. I don't see so much a problem with the choices that have to be made, it's perfectly reasonable that you should have to choose. Anders does warn you of this if you argue in earlier scenes. With the ongoing conflict, especially how it starts in Act 3, it should just have been something that was expected as a logical conclusion. The main issue I take is with the dialogue options when you are making your choices and talking with Anders afterward. Even if you take Anders with you, you don't really get to tell him how pissed you are, which is a shame. There aren't really options to show that you're going along with whoever, but only very reluctantly.

I prefer to side with the mages at the end. They're not all bad, and it is outrageous that Meredith orders the Rite of Annulment when the mage responsible for the action is standing a few feet from her, waiting to be stabbed with her shiny new sword. It is akin to the police purging an entire area of The Projects because there have been too many gang related drive-bys.

No matter what though... that scene with Orsino is ridiculous...

[The Baconer]

Paeyne wrote...
Now, I might be somewhat mitigated in responsiblity if there was no indications of problems, I monitored the use of that authority closely and the person just went off one day without warning, but I would still have to shoulder some responsiblity because I handed the person the gun.[/u]

That was my point. The blame goes both ways, with the subordinate who performed poorly with the tools they were given despite past training and experience, and the higher authority who does not act in the resulting **** storm.

[Addai]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It seemed like he was pointing out that one of the few characters with a Rivanni appearance was a mage who uses blood magic and helps kidnap someone Hawke cares about. I don't see any reason we can't have a civil discussion about race, given how we're all from different backgrounds and can provide insight and dialogue into this issue.

You mean besides the Rivaini squad member and LI who is the iconic female used to the market the entire game??

Holy crap.  You dudes take this pro-mage stuff to ridiculous extremes.

Did you read what I said, or were you inclined to disagree with me with no regard for what I actually said?

So far, I never expressed an opinion on the matter of race and how it relates to Alain. All I said was that I thought we could have a civil discussion and be respectful of each other. Why do you feel like insulting me for saying this?

Sorry to include you in my facepalm, but any attempt to rationally discuss an irrational argument is bound to fubar.

I think that's indulging this bit of insanity enough.

[Emperor Iaius I]

Peer of the Empire wrote...

Mahtisonni wrote...
Your brother has killed 50 people in a mall with a machinepistol made out of metal scrap and homemade bombs.

You also know the theory of how to make a similiar weapons. Should you be killed and/or imprisoned as well to protect the others?

Mages are at high risk of demonic possession. They have the temptation of blood magic. In pursuing nefarious designs, they are well equipped. Yes, I would certainly pay more attention to the fellow who knows how to make bombs and is likely to use them.

The price of freedom will not only be the blood of tens of thousands, mage and templar, but also soldier and civilian, as blood mages are loosed upon the general populace.

Now now, that's precisely why a magocracy is the way to go. Mages are tightly controlled by their superiors and their powers are utilized and harnessed for the greatest societal good. Do you really think the ancient Imperium could have been been as advanced and organized as it was if it permitted its mages to run around cutting people up and doing crazy things?

Blood sacrifices were ritualized and controlled, and they were performed to advance civilization. Running around like nutjobs wasn't tolerated. The magisters had the power, education, and training to harness that sort of thing. Demonic possession was absolutely avoided: remember the scrolls of Banastor? A mage who falls prey to a demon has failed. Where the magisters succeed over the Chantry-slaves is that they don't simply close their ears and say no--they beat the demons at their own game.

They trick the demons and enslave them to their will. Demons should serve mankind.

[The Angry One]

Which is all well and good unless you're one of the slaves, especially one being sacrificed so a Magister can impress their guests at a tea party.

[Emperor Iaius I]

Well, first, that's the latter day Imperium. They're better than the rest, but they still--nominally--follow the Chantry and they've still lost a great deal of their ancient knowledge. They're at least trying to recover it, but is it any wonder the magisters resort to party tricks when they're discouraged at pain of death from openly practicing great magical feats? Blood magic is widespread in the Imperium today, but it's behind closed doors for a reason.

Regardless, though, each person contributes to the common weal in his or her own way. A slave best contributes by providing service to his or her betters, or by giving his or her life for a great cause. I can stipulate that party tricks are a terrible waste of good magic.

[Joy Divison]

IanPolaris wrote...

You are supposed to "like" Petrice when you first meet her.  She is a member of the Chantry who is helping people be free at personal risk.  Sure if you metagame or listen carefully, there is something 'off' about her, but her entire demenor including appearence was "trust little 'ol innocent me".

We learn the hard way that she's a snake and thus we "see through her charms" later on in the script but others clearly do not.  We aren't fooled by her anymore but we understand how mobs could be (and are) incited by her.

This is an exmple of good visual story telling (to dovetail with the actual plot of the game).

-Polaris

That's your problem.  You think art has some sort of formula.  It's not like making McDonald's hamburgers you know.

It's amazing that every point and assumption you made about the game I absolutely disagree with.

I did not "like" Petrice when I first met her.  Doesn't take a Sherlock Holmes to figure out a sister trudging through Lowtown with a thuggish bodyguard looking for disreputable people is up to no good.  And her graty voice and "I need to see a beautician" haircut does nothing for her either.

Orsino does not look like Count Dracula.  Mostly because no such person ever existed, but that is besides the point.

I did not see Alain as an antagonist.  Ever.  Scared kid running away from crazy blood mage.  Didn't exactly have the urge to pull out the murder-knife.  Scared kid with obvious issues who recognized the right thing to do when I showed up at the Wounded Coast.  I wish I had an option to help him escape.

You honestly think a writer as talented as DG needs to exploit cliches and subliminal nonsense to elicit responses from his audience?  You honestly think someone who has shown to be senstive to social issues would resort to such crap?

[LobselVith8]

Addai67 wrote...

Sorry to include you in my facepalm, but any attempt to rationally discuss an irrational argument is bound to fubar.

I think that's indulging this bit of insanity enough.

Don't worry about it.

It was late, and discussions about race in the media have a tendency of getting heated.

Joy Divison wrote...

Orsino does not look like Count Dracula.  Mostly because no such person ever existed, but that is besides the point.

Are we talking about Vlad the Impaler? Technically, I think the argument is that he looks like Count Orlok (from  F. W. Murnau's classic Nosferatu) as opposed to Bram Stoker's Dracula.

[Joy Divison]

No. Polaris clearly said "Count Dracula Prince of Transylvania". But as I said that's besides the point. Orsino doesn't look like that.

[IanPolaris]

I was refering to the popular image of Count Dracula, the Vampire which is indeed originally Count Orlock but most people forget this. Lob has it right.

-Polaris

Edit:  And yes, he does evoke that image from his bearing, dress, inhuman appearece and even three-snake staff.  The imagery doesn't have to be exact to evoke the comparison.  You claim he does't look like that (joy) becasue you don't want him to.  You see that a lot in discussions about appearence, race, and diviersity which is why a civil conversation is almost impossible.  People do deny what is right in front of them and do so all the time.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 12 avril 2011 - 05:59 .

[IanPolaris]

Joy Divison wrote...

You honestly think a writer as talented as DG needs to exploit cliches and subliminal nonsense to elicit responses from his audience?  You honestly think someone who has shown to be senstive to social issues would resort to such crap?

Ah,  a DG fangirl.  I get it.  Does DG need to exploit cliches and subliminal messages?  Perhaps and perhaps not.  Will he use them?  I most certainly think he's not above it.  He might (and this is opinion) feel the need to do so because of his perceived failure selling the Templar PoV the first time around in DAO.

-Polaris

[Joy Divison]

There you go again with assumptions.

How are you so certain I am a girl?

And what makes an acknowledgement of someone's talent a "fangirl"?

And because I do not see the world as you do, it is simply bc/ "I don't want to"?

LOL you are a trip. A civil conversation is impossible when one of it's participants claims to hold the Truth and if their opponent does not conform to his/her assumptions, then they are in denial.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 12 avril 2011 - 07:02 .

[IanPolaris]

I went girl because your avatar is a girl. Not an unreasonable assumption. If that's wrong, I will change the gender of the terms. As for fangirl, your post reeks of it. I think that was a fair desciption.

As for subliminal appearence preference, what I said is simple fact. It exists in everyone and very few people will want to admit it and will go great lengths to deny it. I see no evidence that you are the exception.

-Polaris

[Camenae]

What's so bad about looking like Count Dracula anyway? I like Dracula.

[LobselVith8]

Torax wrote...

Nerys wrote...

Funny, I feel the polar opposite than the OP. I have a really hard time siding with the templars. I just feel like the mages are innocent until proven guilty. Plenty of time to jail them, make them tranquil, or kill them, if they are TRULY guilty of a crime.
Of course I have a devil of a time punishing the most guilty mage in the game. Dammit Anders!

I only spared him the first time. Now I kill him every time. He deserves it.

I wonder how differently the road forks for Hawke if he chooses one over the other.

How different do you think Hawke's path would be if he decides to side with either Sebastian or Anders? I mean, Anders seems to think he'll be acknowledged among the rebels in the mage revolution, and Sebastian is the heir of Starkhaven. Might Hawke, Bethany, and Merrill have a place in Starkhaven if they side with Sebastian?

[IanPolaris]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I wonder how differently the road forks for Hawke if he chooses one over the other.

How different do you think Hawke's path would be if he decides to side with either Sebastian or Anders? I mean, Anders seems to think he'll be acknowledged among the rebels in the mage revolution, and Sebastian is the heir of Starkhaven. Might Hawke, Bethany, and Merrill have a place in Starkhaven if they side with Sebastian?

Even if you don't have maxed out friendship with Sebastian, I think he takes you in (at least temporalily) if you execute Anders but side with the mages.  It's suprising because most of the game his sympathies lie with the Templars, but I guess calling an annulement for soemthing the circle didn't even do was a bridge too far for Sebastian if you side with the mages.  He admits he doesn't feel comfortable but does say that Andrasted did side with the unjustly persecuted and downtrodden and stays with you IF you execute Anders.

-Polaris

[Ivers0803]

Deified Data wrote...

Ivers0803 wrote...

Its pretty simple, you side with the mages, not Orsino, not the blood mages

There are too many "Circles within Circles" for an over-simplification like that. One cannot side with the mages without siding with the blood mages (including Orsino). When one sides with the mages, one has to accept that you'll be freeing alot of abominations, and that the death-toll will be significant.

You may also be freeing the dangerous minority (though aparently in kirkwall they are a majority)  but as evidenced by what happened, the circle is obviously not a viable alternative

[stobie]

IanPolaris wrote...

I was refering to the popular image of Count Dracula, the Vampire which is indeed originally Count Orlock but most people forget this. Lob has it right.

-Polaris

Edit:  And yes, he does evoke that image from his bearing, dress, inhuman appearece and even three-snake staff.  The imagery doesn't have to be exact to evoke the comparison.  You claim he does't look like that (joy) becasue you don't want him to.  You see that a lot in discussions about appearence, race, and diviersity which is why a civil conversation is almost impossible.  People do deny what is right in front of them and do so all the time.

It evokes Dracula to *you.*  To some of us, it might evoke the skinny guy who delivers our mail!  A 'civil discourse' is also impossible when the main tactic is snarky personal comments about someone you don't know. 

Count Dracula has never been 'right in front' of any of us, & we all have different experiences concerning real life races.  What you're suggesting about the writer is pretty mean - there's nothing civil about it.

[stobie]

Camenae wrote...

What's so bad about looking like Count Dracula anyway? I like Dracula.

Good point!  Isn't he supposed to be a symbol of overpowering sexiness and broody-angst good-evilness? He was seducing women right & left. (not talking about Vlad here, naturally, but I assume it's some movie dracula we're supposed to think of when seeing the mild, wispy Orsino.)   

The tri-serpent staff would be interpreted VERY differently - that it's a symbol of evil is ridiculous.  It is just as easily seen as eternity.

Modifié par stobie, 12 avril 2011 - 10:19 .

[nightscrawl]

stobie wrote...
It evokes Dracula to *you.* 

Yeah, I gotta say I had never even thought of Orsino along these lines. If anything, the elves in DA2 look more like the Zora from Zelda to me. I did think he had one of the best character designs in the entire game, and I WANT THAT ROBE.


Also, someone above mentioned something about David Gaider failing to execute the templars properly in Origins. They are so minor, especially if you do not do the mage origin, that I don't know if that is even important. What happened at the circle during Origins centered around two specific events (Jowan's escape and Uldred). There is very little shown of daily life there for mages, which is not the case in DA2. As the years go on in DA2, you hear of more mages being made tranquil, being locked in their cells, being refused the use of staves and grimoires, Alain says the templars "ask things" of them (not sure if I want to speculate on that...) These are aspects of the Kirkwall circle mages' daily lives, rather than the extreme measures that took place in Ferelden's circle.

If you really want to read into it, Greagoir was shown to be reasonable and only wanted to use the Rite of Annulment as a last resort. If he were as extreme as Meredith, he wouldn't have even allowed the Warden to go in there and see if anything could be done. On the other side, you have poor Cullen who was very clearly traumatized, indeed is still traumatized (from conversations you have in DA2), and wants to execute them all out of hand. So you can see both sides to the mage issue even among the templars in Origins. The exchanges between Irving and Greagoir were some of the more entertaining things to watch, since you had two older, experienced, decent people who were trying to find a balance with each other and the greater roles that they have as leaders in the circle.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 12 avril 2011 - 10:25 .

[Addai]

I wanted to sit Alain down in front of a mug of hot chocolate and a plate of home-baked cookies. The poor kid can't win for losing.

Guess I missed the subliminal "teh ebul" cues I was supposed to be picking up.

[stobie]

I'm still not sure if the complaint was that there aren't enough people of various colors, evenly distributed throughout the game classes/villains, or that there are too many, or what. (Ser Bryant cannot count - he looks like he fell asleep in a tanning booth)

The only race that I really noticed was the Celtic Dalish - and I loved that.

[Torax]

Addai67 wrote...

I wanted to sit Alain down in front of a mug of hot chocolate and a plate of home-baked cookies. The poor kid can't win for losing.

Guess I missed the subliminal "teh ebul" cues I was supposed to be picking up.

Apparently David Gaider must be really bad at this whole "Subliminal Messages" thing if the only one really seeing it is IanPolaris.