484 réponses à ce sujet

[stobie]

That's because the rest of us have been completely Mind-Controlled into wanting to bake the nice boy mage cookies and protect him!

[The Baconer]

Torax wrote...
Apparently David Gaider must be really bad at this whole "Subliminal Messages" thing if the only one really seeing it is IanPolaris.

No. It's just as DG and the rest of Bioware planned, just a single piece in their elaborate conspiracy to demonize virtual mages while simultaneously trying to discredit forum user IanPolaris, lest he expose their plans to the world and hinder their quest to portray fictional beings unfairly.

Modifié par The Baconer, 12 avril 2011 - 10:38 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Baconer wrote...

Torax wrote...
Apparently David Gaider must be really bad at this whole "Subliminal Messages" thing if the only one really seeing it is IanPolaris.

No. It's just as DG and the rest of Bioware planned, just a single piece in their elaborate conspiracy to demonize virtual mages while simultaneously trying to discredit forum user IanPolaris, lest he expose their plans to the world and hinder their quest to portray fictional beings unfairly.

Those clever sons of mabaris!!

[LobselVith8]

Deified Data wrote...

Ivers0803 wrote...

Its pretty simple, you side with the mages, not Orsino, not the blood mages

There are too many "Circles within Circles" for an over-simplification like that. One cannot side with the mages without siding with the blood mages (including Orsino). When one sides with the mages, one has to accept that you'll be freeing alot of abominations, and that the death-toll will be significant.

The death toll will be significant when Hawke supports the templars so Meredith's army can murder the men, women, and children of the Kirkwall Circle. It's an act of genocide against a population of people who aren't responsible for the actions of a known apostate. The Right of Annulment was declared after Anders destroyed the Chantry of Kirkwall, but Meredith ignores the former Grey Warden while ordering the mass execution of the Circle of Magi. The mages and apprentices shouldn't be killed for something Anders did.

[JasmoVT]

I agree with OP. I keep playing through really wanting to play pro mage but Anders is such an unrelenting twit lacking any redeeming qualities that even before his act 3 terrorism I simply cannot side with mages.

[getterg]

I was with the mages right until anders ran up out of nowhere in act III and then exploded the chantry. The way hawke sounds when he asks if what he just did was why anders needed him to distract the great mother or w/e sealed it for me

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Deified Data wrote...

Ivers0803 wrote...

Its pretty simple, you side with the mages, not Orsino, not the blood mages

There are too many "Circles within Circles" for an over-simplification like that. One cannot side with the mages without siding with the blood mages (including Orsino). When one sides with the mages, one has to accept that you'll be freeing alot of abominations, and that the death-toll will be significant.

The death toll will be significant when Hawke supports the templars so Meredith's army can murder the men, women, and children of the Kirkwall Circle. It's an act of genocide against a population of people who aren't responsible for the actions of a known apostate. The Right of Annulment was declared after Anders destroyed the Chantry of Kirkwall, but Meredith ignores the former Grey Warden while ordering the mass execution of the Circle of Magi. The mages and apprentices shouldn't be killed for something Anders did.

No. They should be killed for being a bunch of Maleficars and insurgents. And why do you keep talking about Anders being a former Grey Warden, like it has any sort of importance? The key word being "former".

[p95h]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Kirkwall: Nuke It From Orbit.

It's the only way to be sure.

[Sabriana]

Meredith was hankering for the Right way before Anders put the doom-hammer on the mages of Kirkwall in particular and mages in Thedas in general. Unless Orsino lied to Hawke about that.

Helpful Anders simply removed the obstacle for Meredith. The mages were doomed after the Chantry boss-lady died. Meredith should be grateful to Anders. Oh wait. She was. She didn't arrest him after all. Oh, now I see.

Hawke's loyalty belongs to Kirkwall. She is their 'champion' is she not? Siding with the templars would give her the opportunity to actually save non-guilty mages. Oh wait. She did. With Cullen's help. She needs to contain this 'fight' as much as possible to as small an area as possible.

The citizens of Kirkwall just got run over by the Chantry truck, she now has to act as quickly as possible, and in the best way to help her true charges - the citizens of Kirkwall. She doesn't have time to call a comittee meeting or set up a round-table.

And please, don't tell there were only 3 mages to save when thousands died. I didn't see "thousands". I didn't see any kids either. You can't have it both ways. If the mages that actually were shown died was a true number, then the 3 that surrendered were that as well

If the mages that died were just representative of the actual (much higher) number, then the 3 who surrendered are just representative as well.

[IanPolaris]

Sabrina,

We know there have to be at least hundreds if not thousands of mages in the gallows. They are not only housing Kirkwall's mages but those of Starkhaven as well. We already know that there are hundreds of mages in Fereldan's tower and Fereldan has a very sparse population.

Given that, we know that there have to be hundreds at least of mages in the Gallows.

Also compare the mage and templar epilogs. In the mage epilog,we are told that many mages survived. DG has said himself that once a Right of Annulment is declared (and it was never rescinded by Knight Captain Cullen), no mage is permitted to survive...and per the epilog none do (and yes DG does address this with the heavy implication that the mage you capture are forcibly made tranquil).

That means that your Law and Order Hawk is condoning the genocide of an entire group for a crime they didn't commit right down to the last child (and you do kill childen if you do this because we know the gallows has mage children in it).

I hope you're proud of yourself.

-Polaris

Edit:  We know there are children in the gallows because Bethany specifically refers to children and the fact she is now teaching young children basic magic.  Per the Right of Annulment you DO kill the children.  NO getting around it.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 13 avril 2011 - 08:03 .

[SilentK]

Hmm.... I sided with the mages and have a difficult time siding with the templars. I guess that 's what makes it fun, you can see the game from both point of views. Think that I'll make a templar Hawke just to see the other side of the game in a while. I'm not too interested in arguing what is right, I'm just happy that if feels ok to do both sides of the game. That way I still have some new things to see.

[Sabriana]

If the handful of mages killed were representing the 'thousands', then the 3 mages saved are also representing the saved ones. Period. You can't say that the few we see represent many, and the few we see on the other side of the coin are simply just 3.

Either both groups are representative or none are. You can't pick and choose. I declare that the 3 saved mages represented hundreds of men, women, and children that were actually saved. It works that way around too.

[IanPolaris]

Sabriana wrote...

If the handful of mages killed were representing the 'thousands', then the 3 mages saved are also representing the saved ones. Period. You can't say that the few we see represent many, and the few we see on the other side of the coin are simply just 3.

Either both groups are representative or none are. You can't pick and choose. I declare that the 3 saved mages represented hundreds of men, women, and children that were actually saved. It works that way around too.

DG addressed this point himself.  No mage is permitted to survive a Right of Annulment.  He heavily implies (since Cullen never rescinded the Right) that the mages you capture are made tranquil  In any event  there is no mention in the Templar epilog of ANY suviving mages (unlike the mage one).

Yes, the game does santize the Templar end game a great deal.  Far too much IMHO.

-POlaris

[ForeignPatriot]

IanPolaris wrote...

Sabriana wrote...

If the handful of mages killed were representing the 'thousands', then the 3 mages saved are also representing the saved ones. Period. You can't say that the few we see represent many, and the few we see on the other side of the coin are simply just 3.

Either both groups are representative or none are. You can't pick and choose. I declare that the 3 saved mages represented hundreds of men, women, and children that were actually saved. It works that way around too.

DG addressed this point himself.  No mage is permitted to survive a Right of Annulment.  He heavily implies (since Cullen never rescinded the Right) that the mages you capture are made tranquil  In any event  there is no mention in the Templar epilog of ANY suviving mages (unlike the mage one).

Yes, the game does santize the Templar end game a great deal.  Far too much IMHO.

-POlaris

You're speculating there. We don't know what happens after the Templars bow before the champion. Cullen clearly had issues with the Annulment before the battle with Orsino, wether this changed or not, we cannot tell.

And as for the mention of survivors, it could simply be because Varric is telling the story of the champion and his side won. When the champion is on the other side, it makes sense to mention what the result of his "final stand" was.

[Sabriana]

I don't care what he heavily implies. Implications, whatever their weight, are just that, and subject to change at any point.

It's no ones fault that Varric seems to forget to mention the saved mages in the templar run. But then again, who knows what Varric remembers correctly, relays correctly, or simply forgets to mention. I don't know his motivations at all. I have no clue if his recall is correct, coloured by personal opinions and preferences, or motivated by gain.

The Right was skewed by Cullen, when he more or less staked his 'templar-hood' on the ability to save even doomed mages. His words were that even in Ferelden mages were saved. The mages in Kirkwall were saved, and I don't recall anyone -neither mage nor templar- saying anything about tranquility.

It's my contention that Meredith going ape afterward that the whole Right in Kirkwall was put into question. It certainly seems that her actions and choices resolved in templars, mages, and civillians questioning the formerly held consensus about who needs protection from whom.

[hoorayforicecream]

IanPolaris wrote...

Sabrina,

We know there have to be at least hundreds if not thousands of mages in the gallows. They are not only housing Kirkwall's mages but those of Starkhaven as well. We already know that there are hundreds of mages in Fereldan's tower and Fereldan has a very sparse population..

Where did they say there were hundreds of mages in the Ferelden tower? I remember going through that tower and dealing with like... a dozen or two at most. At the end, there are like six mages plus Uldred, and if you don't rescue enough of the six, all of the mages are considered to have fallen, and the templars are free to join the war against the Blight because there are no more mages to watch. The Templars certainly weren't letting mages out. Unless you're going to tell me that each of the mages you save during the Uldred fight is representative of dozens of mages that Uldred was trying to simultaneously turn into abominations at once?

There's no evidence to indicate how many mages there are or were in the Gallows, but Ferelden's tower couldn't have housed hundreds of mages.

[Rifneno]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Sabrina,

We know there have to be at least hundreds if not thousands of mages in the gallows. They are not only housing Kirkwall's mages but those of Starkhaven as well. We already know that there are hundreds of mages in Fereldan's tower and Fereldan has a very sparse population..

Where did they say there were hundreds of mages in the Ferelden tower? I remember going through that tower and dealing with like... a dozen or two at most. At the end, there are like six mages plus Uldred, and if you don't rescue enough of the six, all of the mages are considered to have fallen, and the templars are free to join the war against the Blight because there are no more mages to watch. The Templars certainly weren't letting mages out. Unless you're going to tell me that each of the mages you save during the Uldred fight is representative of dozens of mages that Uldred was trying to simultaneously turn into abominations at once?

There's no evidence to indicate how many mages there are or were in the Gallows, but Ferelden's tower couldn't have housed hundreds of mages.

And I suppose Kirkwall is completely represented by the 50 buildings that we can see while playing as Hawke?  It's common sense; they can't design every inch of every area.  Besides, it would get boring after the 4th hour or so doncha think?

[nightscrawl]

IanPolaris wrote...
Sabrina,

We know there have to be at least hundreds if not thousands of mages in the gallows. They are not only housing Kirkwall's mages but those of Starkhaven as well. We already know that there are hundreds of mages in Fereldan's tower and Fereldan has a very sparse population.

Despite being the largest of the city-states in the Free Marches, there really is no indication of just how large the Starkhaven circle was. The group that Decimus leads has maybe a dozen people in it (from what I recall seeing in the cave during the quest.) It's not mentioned how many additional mages died in the fire, how many are under templar control currently, or how many of them evaded the templars altogether after the fire. Decimus's group just represents the known, rogue Starkhaven mages.

Also, while Ferelden may have a sparse population spread out among the bannorn's farmlands, it also has cities that are more densely populated (Denerim, Amaranthine, Redcliffe.)

Just how do we know that "there are hundreds of mages in Ferelden's tower"? I've played through Origins several times, 4 of them as a mage. If I really had to guess, I would have said there were perhaps dozens, maybe even A hundred, but not hundredS. There aren't even beds for several dozen mages in Ferelden's tower, but you might be able to grant that we didn't see every floor, even while going through it during the Uldred crisis.

If you want to quote some lines or a Codex entry on numbers feel free, but throwing out statistics to make your point isn't really valid when there isn't evidence for it =/. We can only go on what we see and facts realted by sources, not assumptions based on parts of buildings we haven't seen.

I suppose at issue when determining the mage population of a given nation is how common magic is, genetically speaking. Mages are strongly discouraged from having children, especially with each other. As an example, let's lay that 9/10 mages come from non-mage parents. In a sparsely populated country like Ferelden, in a time period that the game takes place in where you might expect a higher infant mortality rate, how many mages can there possibly be?

In the Tivinter Imperium it will be much different of course, since Fenris tells us they "nurture magical talent."

That means that your Law and Order Hawk is condoning the genocide of an entire group for a crime they didn't commit right down to the last child (and you do kill childen if you do this because we know the gallows has mage children in it).

I hope you're proud of yourself.

-Polaris

Edit:  We know there are children in the gallows because Bethany specifically refers to children and the fact she is now teaching young children basic magic.  Per the Right of Annulment you DO kill the children.  NO getting around it.

Yes, this is one reason I find the templar side difficult to take in the end. Everything that we see from the mage origin, saving the circle in Origins, anecdotes from other mages and their families in Origins and DA2 we know that magical children are taken away to the circle. We actually see some children in Origins. The templars chose their path, the children did not.

Sabriana wrote...

But then again, who knows what Varric remembers correctly, relays correctly, or simply forgets to mention. I don't know his motivations at all. I have no clue if his recall is correct, coloured by personal opinions and preferences, or motivated by gain.

While you have a valid point, the way that the game is done is similar to a movie flashback. It's being related by someone, or as the memories of someone, but generally presented as truth. There are clear scenes where Varric has put his own spin on things, such as the mini intro before you customize your character and entering Bartrand's mansion for Family Matter. It's a story telling device and shouldn't really be taken as Varric just making most of it up.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 13 avril 2011 - 01:02 .

[rma2110]

My Hawkes usually side with the mages because either Hawke is a mage or I have Bethany to think about. The Right of Annulment is going too far and I simply can't support Meredith in that. Even Meredith herself admits that not all mages are bad, and she doesn't care that they will be caught in her web.

Anders gave Meredith the perfect excuse to go to the extreme.

[Krilral]

The Angry One wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Just repeat after me: Do not kill people for a crime they didn't commit.

Follow that through to the very end, and you'll have no trouble siding with the mages.

-Polaris

Too bad that 99.9% of all mages not named Bethany are in fact commiting crimes in DA2.

One would expect to see more criminal mages since we were only sent to deal with criminal mages. The reason we didn't see more normal law-abiding mages may have been that there is no real reason to beat the **** out of them.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The death toll will be significant when Hawke supports the templars so Meredith's army can murder the men, women, and children of the Kirkwall Circle. It's an act of genocide against a population of people who aren't responsible for the actions of a known apostate. The Right of Annulment was declared after Anders destroyed the Chantry of Kirkwall, but Meredith ignores the former Grey Warden while ordering the mass execution of the Circle of Magi. The mages and apprentices shouldn't be killed for something Anders did.

No. They should be killed for being a bunch of Maleficars and insurgents.

Considering Hawke never encounters the imprisoned mages of the Gallows during his seven years in Kirkwall, how do you know they are nothing but maleficars and insurgents? Because the fact is none of us know anything about them, except for the fact that they are innocent of the crime Anders committed.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And why do you keep talking about Anders being a former Grey Warden, like it has any sort of importance? The key word being "former".

Because he's a former Grey Warden, not an active member of the Circle of Magi in Kirkwall who are going to be executed for his actions.

[hoorayforicecream]

Rifneno wrote...

And I suppose Kirkwall is completely represented by the 50 buildings that we can see while playing as Hawke?  It's common sense; they can't design every inch of every area.  Besides, it would get boring after the 4th hour or so doncha think?

I'm simply saying there was never any real indicator as to the sense of scale for population in Kirkwall. There might be hundreds of mages in the Gallows, but there also might be dozens. There might be tens of thousands of Kirkwall citizens, or there might be hundreds and we just don't know. They never clearly say how many there are, only that the circles of Kirkwall and Starkhaven are put together during the course of the game.

Our esteemed Mr. Polaris seems to believe that this is hard evidence that there are hundreds. I happen to disagree.

[LobselVith8]

Rifneno wrote...

And I suppose Kirkwall is completely represented by the 50 buildings that we can see while playing as Hawke?  It's common sense; they can't design every inch of every area.  Besides, it would get boring after the 4th hour or so doncha think?

We do know that the Circle of Magi in Kirkwall is the only Circle throughout the Free Marches, since the Circle of Starkhaven burned down.

[Augustei]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

And I suppose Kirkwall is completely represented by the 50 buildings that we can see while playing as Hawke?  It's common sense; they can't design every inch of every area.  Besides, it would get boring after the 4th hour or so doncha think?

We do know that the Circle of Magi in Kirkwall is the only Circle throughout the Free Marches, since the Circle of Starkhaven burned down.

Its also the biggest in the world besides the one in Montsimaad apparently

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The death toll will be significant when Hawke supports the templars so Meredith's army can murder the men, women, and children of the Kirkwall Circle. It's an act of genocide against a population of people who aren't responsible for the actions of a known apostate. The Right of Annulment was declared after Anders destroyed the Chantry of Kirkwall, but Meredith ignores the former Grey Warden while ordering the mass execution of the Circle of Magi. The mages and apprentices shouldn't be killed for something Anders did.

No. They should be killed for being a bunch of Maleficars and insurgents.

Considering Hawke never encounters the imprisoned mages of the Gallows during his seven years in Kirkwall, how do you know they are nothing but maleficars and insurgents? Because the fact is none of us know anything about them, except for the fact that they are innocent of the crime Anders committed.

Oh I have no doubt that some of them are innocent. But they should have thought about that, before they let their First Enchanter refuse the Knight-Commander's investigation into the tower, searching for Blood Magic. There is no chance that the law abidding Mages within the tower did not know about the Maleficarum arts being practised in the tower.  They should have, turned those breaking the law in, or assisted in an investigation, a long time ago. They didn't. Too bad. They could have stopped it, before it begun.