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[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Considering Hawke never encounters the imprisoned mages of the Gallows during his seven years in Kirkwall, how do you know they are nothing but maleficars and insurgents? Because the fact is none of us know anything about them, except for the fact that they are innocent of the crime Anders committed.

Oh I have no doubt that some of them are innocent. But they should have thought about that, before they let their First Enchanter refuse the Knight-Commander's investigation into the tower, searching for Blood Magic. There is no chance that the law abidding Mages within the tower did not know about the Maleficarum arts being practised in the tower.  They should have, turned those breaking the law in, or assisted in an investigation, a long time ago. They didn't. Too bad. They could have stopped it, before it begun.

First Enchanter Orsino is their representative. His actions are his alone. As for searching the Gallows, his refusal doesn't mean anything - Meredith and Orsino have constantly been conflicting with one another since Act II. And you're speculating on what mages should have done when we have no knowledge about their living conditions or what any of the mages or the apprentices did or didn't know. It's like saying all templars should be blamed for the actions of Ser Alrik because they should have known he was a rapist and they should have done something to put a stop to him when we have no idea what they did or didn't know.

[The Baconer]

LobselVith8 wrote...
First Enchanter Orsino is their representative. His actions are his alone.

...What?

As for searching the Gallows, his refusal doesn't mean anything - Meredith and Orsino have constantly been conflicting with one another since Act II.

Considering that a search of the Gallows could possibly uncover evidence of Orsino's aiding of Quentin, I certainly think his refusal means something.

[EmperorSahlertz]

But the Templars ARE to blame that Alrik wasn't stopped before. It is their duty to stop monsters like him. If they didn't know, they failed their duty, if they did know, they didn't act, and thus failed. Just like it is the duty of all circle mages to protest when their First Enchanter is incompetent. And Orsino was more than a little incompetent. We also know that all mages in the Circle (except the First Enchanter) was confined to the living quarters. How big do you think those are, that they allow the mages to practice Blood Magic undisturbed?
Also, if Orsino represents the Mages, then his actions represents the actions of all the mages, thus all the mages aggreed to not have the investigation.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 13 avril 2011 - 04:36 .

[caridounette]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Also, if Orsino represents the Mages, then his actions represents the actions of all the mages, thus all the mages aggreed to not have the investigation.

You really think they asked all mages their opinion about who would represent them ? even the new mages / apprentice who suffer the consequencs of it anyhow? And how often are they asked to revise their decision? Can they change their mind about who would make a good First Enchanter once it starts going downhill ?

[hoorayforicecream]

caridounette wrote...

You really think they asked all mages their opinion about who would represent them ? even the new mages / apprentice who suffer the consequencs of it anyhow? And how often are they asked to revise their decision? Can they change their mind about who would make a good First Enchanter once it starts going downhill ?

I think so. According to the DA wiki, the first enchanter is selected by the senior enchanters, and the templars have no vote.

[The Baconer]

caridounette wrote...

You really think they asked all mages their opinion about who would represent them ? even the new mages / apprentice who suffer the consequencs of it anyhow? And how often are they asked to revise their decision? Can they change their mind about who would make a good First Enchanter once it starts going downhill ?

The First Enchanter is choosen by Senior Enchanters, with Templars
having no part in the election. The First Enchanter is usually someone
who is respected by all mages and usually the templars too, and he or
she is not always elected to the position based off their power and
abilities. -From the codex.

Edit: Ninja'd

Modifié par The Baconer, 13 avril 2011 - 05:28 .

[LobselVith8]

The Baconer wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

First Enchanter Orsino is their representative. His actions are his alone.

...What?

The First Enchanter represents the Circle of Magi, but that doesn't mean that his actions should condemn every mage to death. He's one man. Regardless of what he does, there's an entire population of people who are not responsible for his conduct. Orsino's actions =/= the actions of all the mages of the Circle of Kirkwall.

The Baconer wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

As for searching the Gallows, his refusal doesn't mean anything - Meredith and Orsino have constantly been conflicting with one another since Act II.

Considering that a search of the Gallows could possibly uncover evidence of Orsino's aiding of Quentin, I certainly think his refusal means something.

Orsino seemed concerned she would keep escalating the situation. Whether you believe him or not, we have no way of knowing who was right or wrong - all we know is that Orsino and Meredith kept arguing over the issue of the mages. Considering how long ago the incident with Quentin happened, I don't see why he would leave any incriminating evidence of his involvement with Quentin lying around for the templars to find. Then again, this is the same story where mage antagonists try to kill Hawke despite publicly condemning Meredith's actions, so I really shouldn't expect it to make any sense.

[IanPolaris]

It is also the same game where Mage-Hawke can use bloodmagic right in front of Cullen and not only does Cullen not notice that, but he never notices that Hawke is a mage at all. He says that he hears 'dire rumors' about Hawke and hopes they aren't true. Dire rumors....I used Blood magic to save your sorry posterior you blind useless excuse for a Templar! The other templars are no better.

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

But the Templars ARE to blame that Alrik wasn't stopped before. It is their duty to stop monsters like him. If they didn't know, they failed their duty, if they did know, they didn't act, and thus failed.

It's a failure of the system, but I don't think you can blame all the templars for the actions of a group of people. All templars aren't evil because of what Ser Alrik did. I doubt Ser Thrask would have allowed Alrik to get away with raping women if he knew about it.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Just like it is the duty of all circle mages to protest when their First Enchanter is incompetent.

Orsino is powerless and Meredith installed herself as the de facto Viscount over all of Kirkwall while Grand Cleric Elthina did nothing. From the codex entry on Orsino:

"Orsino is the First Enchanter of the Circle of Magi in the Kirkwall Gallows, and the youngest one in its history. While his magical power is undeniable, it is believed by most that he received the position because no one else wanted it.

As the First Enchanter, Orsino holds the unenviable position of being in command of Kirkwall's Circle of Magi, a title granting little more power than that of prisoner's representative. It is a testament to his sense of duty that he tirelessly defends his quarantined wards against Templar accusations, even while some regard him as a traitor and apologist."

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And Orsino was more than a little incompetent. We also know that all mages in the Circle (except the First Enchanter) was confined to the living quarters. How big do you think those are, that they allow the mages to practice Blood Magic undisturbed?

Again, he was powerless. The Knight-Commander became a dictator over the city-state and presided over the only Circle of Magi in the Free Marches while the Grand Cleric did nothing to stop her. The codex entry states:
 
"Orsino is determined to make life better for his charges by standing up to Meredith and demonstrating that the Circle can act for the good of the people. As both a Mage and an Elf he understands how fear leads to oppression. His zeal in this regard, however, has perhaps made him too willing to excuse the transgressions of his initiates as a consequence."

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Also, if Orsino represents the Mages, then his actions represents the actions of all the mages, thus all the mages aggreed to not have the investigation.

No, it doesn't. Orsino's stupidity in becoming a Harvester or dealing with Quentin doesn't condemn innocent men, women, and children to death for the actions of Anders or Orsino.

[The Baconer]

LobselVith8 wrote...
The First Enchanter represents the Circle of Magi, but that doesn't mean that his actions should condemn every mage to death. He's one man. Regardless of what he does, there's an entire population of people who are not responsible for his conduct. Orsino's actions =/= the actions of all the mages of the Circle of Kirkwall.

It certainly doesn't warrant the Annulment, but one certainly wouldn't be unreasonable in assuming the Kirkwall circle is particularly corrupted, given the amount of deranged mages and especially when their own representative is a maleficar. I mean, he's supposed to set an example for all of the mages in his respective circle. It's part of his job.

Orsino seemed concerned she would keep escalating the situation. Whether you believe him or not, we have no way of knowing who was right or wrong - all we know is that Orsino and Meredith kept arguing over the issue of the mages. Considering how long ago the incident with Quentin happened, I don't see why he would leave any incriminating evidence of his involvement with Quentin lying around for the templars to find.

What he seemed to be concerned about is irrelevant, in hindsight it's plenty reasonable to believe he was afraid of Templars finding evidence that could incriminate him or some other maleficar in hiding. Who says he didn't have some of Quentin's old notes lying around?

[EmperorSahlertz]

If he had enough books about BLood Magic to actually send Quintin some, I'm guessing we could find all sorts of incriminating evidence.

[LobselVith8]

The Baconer wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
The First Enchanter represents the Circle of Magi, but that doesn't mean that his actions should condemn every mage to death. He's one man. Regardless of what he does, there's an entire population of people who are not responsible for his conduct. Orsino's actions =/= the actions of all the mages of the Circle of Kirkwall.

It certainly doesn't warrant the Annulment, but one certainly wouldn't be unreasonable in assuming the Kirkwall circle is particularly corrupted, given the amount of deranged mages and especially when their own representative is a maleficar. I mean, he's supposed to set an example for all of the mages in his respective circle. It's part of his job.

How can anyone say the Circle of Kirkwall corrupt when we never meet many or most of the denizens of the Gallows? Hawke is mostly encountering antagonists. It's like saying the humans of Kirkwall are particularly corrupt given the amount of criminals Hawke fights who are human.

The Baconer wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Orsino seemed concerned she would keep escalating the situation. Whether you believe him or not, we have no way of knowing who was right or wrong - all we know is that Orsino and Meredith kept arguing over the issue of the mages. Considering how long ago the incident with Quentin happened, I don't see why he would leave any incriminating evidence of his involvement with Quentin lying around for the templars to find.

What he seemed to be concerned about is irrelevant, in hindsight it's plenty reasonable to believe he was afraid of Templars finding evidence that could incriminate him or some other maleficar in hiding. Who says he didn't have some of Quentin's old notes lying around? 

It's speculation, though. We have no way of proving either way what the actual reason behind Orsino's actions when there's nothing to substantiate either claim.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 13 avril 2011 - 06:06 .

[The Baconer]

LobselVith8 wrote...
How can anyone say the Circle of Kirkwall corrupt when we never meet many or most of the denizens of the Gallows? Hawke is mostly encountering antagonists. It's like saying the humans of Kirkwall are particularly corrupt given the amount of criminals Hawke fights who are human.

I'm not saying it is, I'm saying that's the impression people are going to get.

It's speculation, though. We have no way of proving either way what the actual reason behind Orsino's actions when there's nothing to substantiate either claim.

A search could.

[LobselVith8]

The Baconer wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
How can anyone say the Circle of Kirkwall corrupt when we never meet many or most of the denizens of the Gallows? Hawke is mostly encountering antagonists. It's like saying the humans of Kirkwall are particularly corrupt given the amount of criminals Hawke fights who are human.

I'm not saying it is, I'm saying that's the impression people are going to get.

But that's an impression based on a few mages we encounter outside of the Circle as opposed to the many mages currently imprisoned in the Gallows. I don't think we have any way of knowing what the mages are like without personally encountering them in the Circle of Magi, and we can't.

The Baconer wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's speculation, though. We have no way of proving either way what the actual reason behind Orsino's actions when there's nothing to substantiate either claim.

A search could.  

Then Bethany could have become the new First Enchanter and the mages would have someone representing them who wouldn't go batsh*t insane for incredibly stupid reasons.

[EmperorSahlertz]

There is no speculation on wether or not Orsino himself was a Blood Mage. There is no speculation on wether he knew about Quentin. The only speculation is wether he was trying to cover himself, or the other mages, with his denial of an investigation. And we meet enough Blood Mages after the Annulment is called, to see that the Circle had a significant infestation.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 13 avril 2011 - 06:22 .

[The Baconer]

LobselVith8 wrote...
But that's an impression based on a few mages we encounter outside of the Circle as opposed to the many mages currently imprisoned in the Gallows. I don't think we have any way of knowing what the mages are like without personally encountering them in the Circle of Magi, and we can't.

*shrug* It's unfortunate, but I don't think people who hear about all the evil blood mages and demon summoning, and that their first enchanter was one of them.

Then Bethany could have become the new First Enchanter and the mages would have someone representing them who wouldn't go batsh*t insane for incredibly stupid reasons.

And what, get a happier ending achieved by people solving their problems logically? What game do you think this is?

Modifié par The Baconer, 13 avril 2011 - 06:19 .

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

There is no speculation on wether or not Orsino himself was a Blood Mage.

Was this even a topic of discussion?

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

There is no speculation on wether he knew about Quentin, and even that he knew he was targetting Hawke's mother specifically. 

Again, was this a topic of discussion? I thought we were addressing whether Orsino had any incriminating evidence that would implicate him in his room?

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The only speculation is wether he was trying to cover himself, or the other mages, with his denial of an investigation.

We don't see the mages under Orsino's command use blood magic, so why assume he was covering up for anyone? As for whether there was any evidence implicating him as a friend of Quentin, it's been a while since Leandra was killed.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And we meet enough Blood Mages after the Annulment is called, to see that the Circle had a significant infestation.

You mean we encounter abominations, and since we have a possessed templar calling forth abominations from thin air, I'm not certain this proves your point.

[_Aine_]

The Baconer wrote...

And what, get a happier ending achieved by people solving problems logically? What game do you think this is?

*hisses!* 

Sacrilege!  I call upon the powers of ... errr.... Retconia to smite thee!!!   

*hears a fizzle sound* 

*grumbles and gropes around under her desk for the blasted awesome button* 

(and I don't mean THAT awesome button!  Behave!)  

Modifié par shantisands, 13 avril 2011 - 06:24 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

No, I mean we meet mages, and those aren't the street thugs, these are actual Circle Mages. We fight our way through waves of abominations, mages (and templars if you side with the mages). And the Templar you are referring to, is not a Templar, it is an Abomination, or rather a possessed Templar, the demon inside have the magical talent needed for summons, the Templars don't.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

No, I mean we meet mages, and those aren't the street thugs, these are actual Circle Mages.

Antagonists who are no different than the criminals who don't represent the rest of Kirkwall's population.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

We fight our way through waves of abominations, mages (and templars if you side with the mages). And the Templar you are referring to, is not a Templar, it is an Abomination, or rather a possessed Templar, the demon inside have the magical talent needed for summons, the Templars don't.

Which is why I addressed it was a possessed templar, not an ordinary templar.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

No, I mean we meet mages, and those aren't the street thugs, these are actual Circle Mages.

Antagonists who are no different than the criminals who don't represent the rest of Kirkwall's population.

Huh?.. What the?.. They are proof of Blood Mages within the Circle. Just like the criminals you fight at night, are just proof of there being criminals in Kirkwall. And for them to be made enemies is, becuase they must have had a significant enough presence, to be a threat.

Twist, turn and squirm all you like. There were a significant number of Blood Mages within the Cirlce, and it needed to be purged for that fact alone.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Antagonists who are no different than the criminals who don't represent the rest of Kirkwall's population.

Huh?.. What the?.. They are proof of Blood Mages within the Circle. Just like the criminals you fight at night, are just proof of there being criminals in Kirkwall. And for them to be made enemies is, becuase they must have had a significant enough presence, to be a threat.

Because "they must have had a significant presence"? That's speculation, because we have no idea how many blood mages there are in the Gallows.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Twist, turn and squirm all you like. There were a significant number of Blood Mages within the Cirlce, and it needed to be purged for that fact alone.

Your speculation =/= fact.

[EmperorSahlertz]

No, they must have ahd a significant presence to be made into an entire pack of enemies. If they did not have a significant presence, they would have made them into single enemies, with a few corpse adds or some such.

[getterg]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Antagonists who are no different than the criminals who don't represent the rest of Kirkwall's population.

Huh?.. What the?.. They are proof of Blood Mages within the Circle. Just like the criminals you fight at night, are just proof of there being criminals in Kirkwall. And for them to be made enemies is, becuase they must have had a significant enough presence, to be a threat.

Because "they must have had a significant presence"? That's speculation, because we have no idea how many blood mages there are in the Gallows.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Twist, turn and squirm all you like. There were a significant number of Blood Mages within the Cirlce, and it needed to be purged for that fact alone.

Your speculation =/= fact.

I think the whole deal with a blood mage trying to kill you or someone close to you every 5 seconds and packs of them roaming the streets at night is enough proof.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

No, they must have ahd a significant presence to be made into an entire pack of enemies. If they did not have a significant presence, they would have made them into single enemies, with a few corpse adds or some such.

We have no idea how many blood mages there are in the Gallows, or the ratio of blood mages to regular mages. What we do know is that the Right of Annulment is called against the Circle of Kirkwall because of the actions of an apostate.

getterg wrote...

I think the whole deal with a blood mage trying to kill you or someone close to you every 5 seconds and packs of them roaming the streets at night is enough proof.

Mage antagonists =/= mages in the Circle of Magi who are going to be killed because of the actions of an apostate.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 13 avril 2011 - 07:45 .