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[The Angry One]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Idunna sent young recruits off to get possessed, Decimus was a deranged cult leader and possible arsonist.
They're not evil for using blood magic, they're evil for.. well, doing evil things.

If Fenris had done the same thing to the Tevinter soldiers that Idunna had done to the templars, people would be cheering his sense of justice. It's a matter of perspective, and I'm disinclined to take the perspective that the Chantry and its minions force on us.

Well no since he'd just kill them, not have them possessed by demons to spread chaos, insantity and hurt feelings.

[LobselVith8]

Captmorgan72 wrote...

unless you are playing a darkside mage. The freaking first enchanter of kirkwall is close friends with a psychotic blood mage that Orsino is helping with his experiments.

How does the actions of one, single man condemn an entire population to death? He's their representative, his actions shouldn't mean their execution.

Captmorgan72 wrote...

I don't blame Meredith at all with her attitude about blood mages being everywhere, because they mostly were. It's too bad she had to lose her mind because of that damn idol, she was a champion against dark magic.

She declared genocide against the Circle of Kirkwall for something they didn't do.

Captmorgan72 wrote...

Even if I play as a mage, I find myself supporting the templars, mostly Cullen though, after Meredith goes nuts.

The same Cullen who said, "Mages are weapons. They aren't people like you and me."

Captmorgan72 wrote...

There is no denying that magic is extremely dangerous and that is why the circles exist to begin with. Don't fix what isn't broken. The world saw what happened when mages are left without checks and balances, when the Tevinter Mages attempted to overthrow the Maker. 

I respectfully disagree. The Chantry controlled Circles are broken. The templars who raped mages, made Harrowed mages tranquil even though it was illegal, and tortured a len (child) of the Dalish demonstrate the failings of the system. Furthermore, the end condemned people for a crime they didn't commit. The Circle of Kirkwall is full of men, women, and children who Hawke never met. We have no idea what they're like, but we do know that they aren't responsible for what Anders did: a former Grey Warden killed the Grand Cleric and destroyed the Chantry of Kirkwall, and Meredith as Knight-Commander condemns people to death who are innocent of Ander's actions. She's going to commit genocide because a known apostate destroyed the Kirkwall Chantry.

[Girl on a Rock]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Girl on a Rock wrote...

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

There are several innocent blood mages in this game.

Merrill. Taronhe. The girl at the Rose.

I'd say Decimus and Grace, but I can't remember if they were abominations or not.

Tarhone? Idunna? Decimus and Grace? What? Are you kidding?

Even Merrill is questionable, and she's the closest example to innocent you gave!

Tarhone was manipulating the minds of templars and not only allowing but encouraging demons to possess them; Idunna was purposely and gleefully leading them to that fate (before Hawke makes her almost crap herself/kills her), and Decimus is summoning demons to inhabit the dead bodies that attack you (aka skeleton archers, walking corpses). I'm pretty sure that Grace ends up turning into either a desire demon or a nasty abomination.

So no, please. Don't defend mages using these examples. I support mages and this argument is just straight crazy.

There is nothing wrong with tricking demons and using them for the good of mankind. The demons would think nothing of doing the same to you.

Manipulating the minds of rapists? Pardon me while I pity the Templars. Except I shan't. Moreover, the Chantry already manipulates them through theology and addiction: to be a templar is to be a slave, definitionally. Those Chantry stooges aren't losing anything.

Idunna? She was frightened. A bunch of people came to question her--she was simply defending herself the only way she knew how.

Decimus--see the scrolls. What, is possession of a corpse prima facie evidence of "crazy?" That's sheer prejudice speaking.

I reject the premise that mages are innocent only if they play along with the constraints the Chantry has placed on them. Why should I accept those terms? I am not interested in using their basic assumptions.

Magic should rule man. This is as Dumat taught, and this is what created a glorious civilization that was torn down by ignorance and superstition.

First of all, you for real just quoted the Scrolls of Banastor at me.

Second of all, not all templars are rapists. For example, Carver, while yes, kind of a dick, is not a rapist. Thrask, not a rapist. Alistair, who granted, did not finalize his templarhood but would have if not for Duncan, also not a rapist. Keran, probably not a rapist. I could go on, but the point is, disagreeing with the templar's role in the world and the treatment of mages by the templars and the Chantry does not make them rapist. That is the same kind of logic by which Meredith, the templars, and the Chantry in general oppress and imprison mages. As far as them already being slaves, well - you've already proven that you're unwilling to consider nuance or templars as individuals rather than a many-handed whole when it comes to this subject, so... yeah.

Idunna was afraid once she figured out she couldn't force Hawke to off herself/himself - not before. Before, she was pretty damn smug, from what I could tell.

Prejudice against necromancy and power-mad mages? Yup.

You've got it all wrong if you think I accept the Chantry's basic terms and definitions. You've also got it all wrong if you think that being oppressed gives mages an excuse for abandoning all moral and ethical concerns, which you seem to be doing by dehumanizing the templars and crying foul on the Chantry while fervently defending mages no matter what they do.

What's funny about this is that I was and continue to be a mage supporter, but seriously, your argument really makes me want to go make a templar. LOLOL

[Foolsfolly]

IanPolaris wrote...

Just repeat after me: Do not kill people for a crime they didn't commit.

Follow that through to the very end, and you'll have no trouble siding with the mages.

-Polaris

Unless the crime you're killing them for is the crime of being a Blood Mage and consorting with Demons.

[LobselVith8]

Girl on a Rock wrote...

First of all, you for real just quoted the Scrolls of Banastor at me.

Look at the bottom of her post - she's in-character.

[The Angry One]

Girl on a Rock wrote...

What's funny about this is that I was and continue to be a mage supporter, but seriously, your argument really makes me want to go make a templar. LOLOL

Yes, join the dark side. We have fancy armour, cool powers and Meredith brownies every Saturday.

[Maria Caliban]

The Emperor is female? That would be Imperatrix, wouldn't it?

[In Exile]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Kirkwall: Nuke It From Orbit.

Anders was 1/20th of the way there? Anders Orbital Nuke to the rescue!

[LobselVith8]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Unless the crime you're killing them for is the crime of being a Blood Mage and consorting with Demons.

Hawke can't make that determination because he has no knowledge about the people in the Circle of Magi. He's never meet most of them, he's never encountered the majority of the men, women, and children who are living in the Gallows as prisoners of the templars. He can't condemn the Circle of Magi for using blood magic when he (or she) never meets them. The person who is condemning the Circle to death is doing so because Anders killed the Grand Cleric, and Meredith knows Anders is responsible. She orders their execution and ignores him. I don't see how you can claim they can be killed for blood magic when we have absolutely no knowledge of whether such a statement is true or not. All we do know is that they are innocent of the crime Anders committed.

[Raiil]

Maria Caliban wrote...

The Emperor is female? That would be Imperatrix, wouldn't it?

Empress/Imperatrix, yes. Depending on how Latin you want to sound today. :happy:

[The Angry One]

In Exile wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Kirkwall: Nuke It From Orbit.

Anders was 1/20th of the way there? Anders Orbital Nuke to the rescue!

It's the only way to be relatively certain?

[LobselVith8]

Maria Caliban wrote...

The Emperor is female? That would be Imperatrix, wouldn't it?

I don't question Magisters from the Imperium.

[Girl on a Rock]

The Angry One wrote...

Girl on a Rock wrote...

What's funny about this is that I was and continue to be a mage supporter, but seriously, your argument really makes me want to go make a templar. LOLOL

Yes, join the dark side. We have fancy armour, cool powers and Meredith brownies every Saturday.

Man, I'm not even gonna lie, I have love for some templars. But the Chantry, so oppressive! Mages locked up in little boxes! It makes me sad panda! ;_____;

[Foolsfolly]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

Unless the crime you're killing them for is the crime of being a Blood Mage and consorting with Demons.

Hawke can't make that determination because he has no knowledge about the people in the Circle of Magi. He's never meet most of them, he's never encountered the majority of the men, women, and children who are living in the Gallows as prisoners of the templars. He can't condemn the Circle of Magi for using blood magic when he (or she) never meets them. The person who is condemning the Circle to death is doing so because Anders killed the Grand Cleric, and Meredith knows Anders is responsible. She orders their execution and ignores him. I don't see how you can claim they can be killed for blood magic when we have absolutely no knowledge of whether such a statement is true or not. All we do know is that they are innocent of the crime Anders committed.

Yeah, except for all the demons and abominations and blood mages that attack even a Pro-Mage Hawke.

And even if you're looking for a role-playing reason, Anders attacks that Templar to see if he's possessed. Hawke later attacks a bunch of mages and BAM! Demons running wild, Abominations spouting everywhere, and then the First Enchanter goes crazy Harvester on us.

There's three mages who beg for mercy and do not attack.

It's a shame that some innocents were lost, but someone has to make the difficult choices. When a leg goes grangrene you can't just prey and hope it gets better. You have to cut out the rot, even if it means taking off a mostly healthy leg to save the body.

[Emperor Iaius I]

thurmanator692 wrote...


Decimus tried to kill me when i was there to help, i don't care if he was scared or whatever, you don't attack unprovoked

Yes, I was distressed when my brother didn't recognize me.

Girl on a Rock:

First of all, you for real just quoted the Scrolls of Banastor at me.

I did. It's a wonderful document and useful evidentiary source.

As far as them already being slaves, well - you've already proven that you're unwilling to consider nuance or templars as individuals rather than a many-handed whole when it comes to this subject, so... yeah.

I'm happy to consider nuance--but no, I do not consider templars as individuals. Why should I care what a handful of people do when the body is corrupt?

Idunna was afraid once she figured out she couldn't force Hawke to off herself/himself - not before. Before, she was pretty damn smug, from what I could tell.

Some people like a girl with confidence.

You've got it all wrong if you think I accept the Chantry's basic terms and definitions. You've also got it all wrong if you think that being oppressed gives mages an excuse for abandoning all moral and ethical concerns, which you seem to be doing by dehumanizing the templars and crying foul on the Chantry while fervently defending mages no matter what they do.

What's funny about this is that I was and continue to be a mage supporter, but seriously, your argument really makes me want to go make a templar. LOLOL

Yes, and I'm sounding just like Meredith too, eh?

Well, how about that . . . you'd almost wonder if there was a point behind it all.

LobselVith8 wrote...

Girl on a Rock wrote...

First of all, you for real just quoted the Scrolls of Banastor at me.

Look at the bottom of her post - she's in-character.

Not female, even though my icon is.

Maria Caliban wrote...

The Emperor is female? That would be Imperatrix, wouldn't it?

Empress. Imperatrix is the feminine of Imperator, just as Imperatrice is the feminine of Empereur, and so forth. I would probably use Augustus as a more useful term for "emperor" had I used Latin, at any rate, given that princeps, imperator, and βασιλευς all have alternative meanings.

But as noted above: not female.

LobselVith8 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

The Emperor is female? That would be Imperatrix, wouldn't it?

I don't question Magisters from the Imperium.

Sound policy.

Modifié par Emperor Iaius I, 11 avril 2011 - 03:21 .

[Girl on a Rock]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Yes, and I'm sounding just like Meredith too, eh?

Well, how about that . . . you'd almost wonder if there was a point behind it all.

Except I don't need convincing of mages' rights to live under better conditions and be treated better, nor to judge them as individuals rather than as a whole to be blamed for the crimes of the few! 

[Paeyne]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

There are several innocent blood mages in this game.

.

<Can't stop laughing to type coherently.>

[Emperor Iaius I]

Yes, but some people do.

And even if you don't, playing the Tevinter apologist is too fun. Nobody else in the universe does it, so somebody has to. It'd be boring if we all agreed.

[IanPolaris]

As I said before, even setting aside all other considerations, there is only one requirement to get you to support the mages everytim:

If you believe it is wrong to kill an entire group of people right down to the last child for a crme they didn't even commit, then you should support the mages every single time.

That one thing supercedes everything else.

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Yeah, except for all the demons and abominations and blood mages that attack even a Pro-Mage Hawke.

I didn't realize they constituted the majority of the mages currently imprisoned in the Circle of Magi.

Foolsfolly wrote...

And even if you're looking for a role-playing reason, Anders attacks that Templar to see if he's possessed. Hawke later attacks a bunch of mages and BAM! Demons running wild, Abominations spouting everywhere, and then the First Enchanter goes crazy Harvester on us.

Again, Orsino's actions don't condemn every man, woman, and child in the Gallows. The abominations who we encounter don't mean a majority of the mages in the Circle of Magi are practicing blood magic. Considering that Varric reveals that "many survived" when Hawke sides with the mages, it tells me not every mage ascribed to the fate of turning into an abomination.

Foolsfolly wrote...

There's three mages who beg for mercy and do not attack.

Who will be made tranquil. How nice it must be for them to look forward to a life as a "templar puppet."

Foolsfolly wrote...

It's a shame that some innocents were lost, but someone has to make the difficult choices. When a leg goes grangrene you can't just prey and hope it gets better. You have to cut out the rot, even if it means taking off a mostly healthy leg to save the body.

You're talking about the genocide of a population of innocent people who aren't responsible for what Anders did.

[TJPags]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

I'm happy to consider nuance--but no, I do not consider templars as individuals. Why should I care what a handful of people do when the body is corrupt?

Well, then I guess that makes it fine to kill all the mages since most of the mages we see are blood mages and abominations, right?

[Girl on a Rock]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Yes, but some people do.

And even if you don't, playing the Tevinter apologist is too fun. Nobody else in the universe does it, so somebody has to. It'd be boring if we all agreed.

I didn't knoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow! 

[Maria Caliban]

IanPolaris wrote...

If you believe it is wrong to kill an entire group of people right down to the last child for a crme they didn't even commit, then you should support the mages every single time.

Yes, because Hawke is simply an extension of oneself and not a character you've created.