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[Chromie]

IanPolaris wrote...

Just repeat after me: Do not kill people for a crime they didn't commit.

Follow that through to the very end, and you'll have no trouble siding with the mages.

-Ringo

[Rifneno]

The Baconer wrote...

Rifneno wrote...
That's okay.  I don't care what they think either.  

Yep. That definitely warranted a response.

That about sums it up.  Why does the opinions of the murdering, raping, subjugating tyrants matter?  Screw the templars.

You're being intellectually dishonest if you think this analogy is comparable.

Why, because there's intent involved?  Intent doesn't matter to the dead.

The Chantry didn't nuke its own Cleric to hoist Meredith into that position of authority. Anders did. He handed the fate of the Kirkwall mages to her on a silver platter.

 

Elthina also handed it to her on a silver platter by not doing anything about Meredith.  She knew damn well that if anything should happen to her, Meredith would attempt to Annul the Circle.  Did she order Meredith removed from her post?  No.  Did she send a message to the Divine informing her of the situation?  No.  Did she even leave a ****ing post-it with Cullen saying she doesn't want Meredith trying to commit genocide if Sebastian accidentally shoots her in the throat when he's aiming for a Chantry Board poster she's holding?  NO!  But I'm not even really blaming her.  The blame falls squarely on the Chantry itself for making an international law that gives one drug addict the power to order a legal mass murder with no system of checks and balances in the event that one old woman dies.

Yes, but Anders actions also served to rally the people of Kirkwall behind the Templars. In her eyes and in the eyes of the common people, he vindicated her past oppression of mages by proving her right.  

Just because you feel that way doesn't mean the entire Thedas public does.  People as a whole are not so stupid as to condemn an entire minority based on one man.  Especially given that many people know mages, perhaps even have them in the family, or have been healed by mages.

[The Baconer]

Rifneno wrote...
That about sums it up.  Why does the opinions of the murdering, raping, subjugating tyrants matter?  Screw the templars.

While that's easy to say from the perspective of a walking Mary Sue demigod, it's not that simple for the rest of the (Dragon Age) world.

Why, because there's intent involved?  Intent doesn't matter to the dead.

Who cares about the dead? It's the consequences afterward that matter. And the fact that the action was commited with intent and by a mage makes all the difference.

Elthina also handed it to her on a silver platter by not doing anything about Meredith.  She knew damn well that if anything should happen to her, Meredith would attempt to Annul the Circle.  Did she order Meredith removed from her post?  No.  Did she send a message to the Divine informing her of the situation?  No.  Did she even leave a ****ing post-it with Cullen saying she doesn't want Meredith trying to commit genocide if Sebastian accidentally shoots her in the throat when he's aiming for a Chantry Board poster she's holding?  NO!  But I'm not even really blaming her.

 

Agreed.

The blame falls squarely on the Chantry itself for making an international law that gives one drug addict the power to order a legal mass murder with no system of checks and balances in the event that one old woman dies.

And on Anders, and on Meredith, and on Orsino, and on Bartrand, etc.

Just because you feel that way

Who said I feel that way?

doesn't mean the entire Thedas public does.

Yeah, only the large majority, thanks to the Andrastian faith.

People as a whole are not so stupid

This quote alone is pretty damn hilarious, even when applied to modern society. 

as to condemn an entire minority based on one man. Especially given that many people know mages, perhaps even have them in the family, or have been healed by mages.

If you expect people to approach this situation with logic and rational thinking, maybe Dragon Age isn't the right series for you.

[ddv.rsa]

Rifneno wrote...

Just because you feel that way doesn't mean the entire Thedas public does.  People as a whole are not so stupid as to condemn an entire minority based on one man.  Especially given that many people know mages, perhaps even have them in the family, or have been healed by mages.

The fact that the people regard Hawke as a hero for siding with the templars suggests otherwise. If the public disagreed with the annulment, or even had mixed feelings about it, they wouldn't cheer a Hawke that does it and beg him / her to be viscount.

People in Thedas are very weary of magic. In Kirkwall the harshness of the Templars was beginning to win sympathy for the mages, but I expect Anders utterly reversed that.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Enough to address that there are plenty of apostates we encounter in the storyline to see that Hawke or Bethany aren't the only illegal mages in Kirkwall. And Evelina and Huon are two examples of perfectly sane mages who were driven to insanity after being imprisoned in the Gallows.

But they weren't driven insane because of the Gallows. They were driven "insane" because of outside factors. I'm not even willing to declare either of them insane. Huon became a blood mage while in the tower, no doubt taught by the others in there, and Evelina wanted to protect some orphans she had brought along from Ferelden.

They are both perfect showcases of why mages shouldn't form attachments though.

Both are perfect examples of how the Gallows can drive perfectly sane mages insane.

Huon didn't want to be with his wife - he was mentally unbalanced, and killed her less than a minute after he reunited with her to fulfill his mad ambitions. He was clearly insane. He didn't utter a sensible word the moment Hawke encountered him. He was as deranged as Quentin.

Evelina was in the Circle of Ferelden, where relationships aren't frowned upon like they are in other Circles, and she could handle years in the Circle of Ferelden under Knight-Commander Greagoir's authority. It wasn't until she was imprisoned in the Gallows that she lost her mind. Both of these mages were driven insane as a result of her time in the Gallows.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 15 avril 2011 - 03:16 .

[Urazz]

The Baconer wrote...

The blame falls squarely on the Chantry itself for making an international law that gives one drug addict the power to order a legal mass murder with no system of checks and balances in the event that one old woman dies.

And on Anders, and on Meredith, and on Orsino, and on Bartrand, etc.

How is Orsino to blame?  What did he do to cause the situation to happen other than fight against Meredith's method's and exceeding her power as Knight Commander.  By the time he went and made himself into a Harvester, things were already past the point of a peaceful resolution.

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Enough to address that there are plenty of apostates we encounter in the storyline to see that Hawke or Bethany aren't the only illegal mages in Kirkwall. And Evelina and Huon are two examples of perfectly sane mages who were driven to insanity after being imprisoned in the Gallows.

But they weren't driven insane because of the Gallows. They were driven "insane" because of outside factors. I'm not even willing to declare either of them insane. Huon became a blood mage while in the tower, no doubt taught by the others in there, and Evelina wanted to protect some orphans she had brought along from Ferelden.

They are both perfect showcases of why mages shouldn't form attachments though.

Both are perfect examples of how the Gallows can drive perfectly sane mages insane.

Huon didn't want to be with his wife - he was mentally unbalanced, and killed her less than a minute after he reunited with her to fulfill his mad ambitions. He was clearly insane. He didn't utter a sensible word the moment Hawke encountered him. He was as deranged as Quentin.

Evelina was in the Circle of Ferelden, where relationships aren't frowned upon like they are in other Circles, and she could handle years in the Circle of Ferelden under Knight-Commander Greagoir's authority. It wasn't until she was imprisoned in the Gallows that she lost her mind. Both of these mages were driven insane as a result of her time in the Gallows.

I agree.  The Gallows and Meredith's extreme methods  were pretty much the cause of several mages becoming blood mages or becoming abominations.  Why they felt that the Circle should be in a former slave prison was a good idea is beyond me.

And there are several good or innocent mages you run into throughout the game.  It's just by the time you get to Act 3 most of the good mages are either told to flee by you or killed.  Hell it's the same with the good Templars as well.  Hell, the only good one that remained is Cullen for the most part and he used to be more severe in his views on the mage/templar thing but mellowed out a bit years later.

Modifié par Urazz, 15 avril 2011 - 03:47 .

[The Baconer]

Urazz wrote...
How is Orsino to blame?  What did he do to cause the situation to happen other than fight against Meredith's method's and exceeding her power as Knight Commander.  By the time he went and made himself into a Harvester, things were already past the point of a peaceful resolution.

Aiding a murderous necromancer certainly wouldn't warrant any suspicion or escalate the situation, I agree!

[Urazz]

The Baconer wrote...

Urazz wrote...
How is Orsino to blame?  What did he do to cause the situation to happen other than fight against Meredith's method's and exceeding her power as Knight Commander.  By the time he went and made himself into a Harvester, things were already past the point of a peaceful resolution.

Aiding a murderous necromancer certainly wouldn't warrant any suspicion or escalate the situation, I agree!

Oh, no doubt that Orsino is a bastard alright but that is not even part of the final situation other than it reveals that Orsino is just as bad as Meredith.

[The Baconer]

Urazz wrote...
Oh, no doubt that Orsino is a bastard alright but that is not even part of the final situation other than it reveals that Orsino is just as bad as Meredith.

Only that he's a hypocrite and contributes to the trainwreck like everyone else.

[GavrielKay]

I think every mage we meet is a blood mage/abomination in order to offset the (hopefully) natural tendency to feel bad for them being kept as prisoners their whole lives. If all the mages you met were decent chantry following people who wouldn't hurt a fly there wouldn't be much of a decision to be made at the end of the game.

I figure mages deserve to be free to see how they will behave when they can actually have a normal life and learn the value of family and friends.