484 réponses à ce sujet

[White_Buffalo94]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

There are several innocent blood mages in this game.

Merrill. Taronhe. The girl at the Rose.

I'd say Decimus and Grace, but I can't remember if they were abominations or not.

I think you may just want to play through the game again. I am all for siding with the mages, as I have in every playthrough, but Merrill brings an extremely demon into the world, Tarohne is delving into the unwilling minds of templars to destroy their ranks (Which I'd agree with if it was a templar like the insane bald one from anders' personal act II quest). Oh, and Idunna is in league with Tarohne, not to mention she almost makes Hawke kill himself

[LobselVith8]

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

There are several innocent blood mages in this game.

Merrill. Taronhe. The girl at the Rose.

I'd say Decimus and Grace, but I can't remember if they were abominations or not.

I think you may just want to play through the game again. I am all for siding with the mages, as I have in every playthrough, but Merrill brings an extremely demon into the world,

Actually, Merrill doesn't. Audacity is still trapped in the Totem when she leaves Sundermount.

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

Tarohne is delving into the unwilling minds of templars to destroy their ranks (Which I'd agree with if it was a templar like the insane bald one from anders' personal act II quest). Oh, and Idunna is in league with Tarohne, not to mention she almost makes Hawke kill himself

I suppose from the POV of a Tevinter they would be "innocent." Look at the bottom of Emperor's post: "in-character."

[ArcticBear]

 Only reason I sided with the mages was because of bethany and merril. I probably wouldnt have otherwise since every mage seems to be a corrupted bloodmage these days.

[Rockpopple]

Way I see it, there wouldn't be a Right of Annulment if there was never any justified use in invoking it. I'm pretty sure the Kirkwall Circle is as clear of an example of a Circle that needs to be Annulled as you can get. Aside from Bethany and the shop guy and that kid from Starkhaven, you couldn't swing a cat in that Circle without hitting a Blood Mage.

If they were ever going to use the Right of Annulment anywhere... ever... it'd be in Kirkwall.

What I think is that after they Annul the Circle, they Annul the Templars. They clearly screwed up. There were so many abuses and so much mismanagement in Kirkwall that if I was as influencial as Hawke at the end, I'd demand either Cullen be put in charge to reform the Templars in Kirkwall, or a new regiment be sent in to replace the corrupt one there.

There are no winners - but the only survivors are the ones not possessed by demons.

[Rifneno]

Rockpopple wrote...

Way I see it, there wouldn't be a Right of Annulment if there was never any justified use in invoking it. I'm pretty sure the Kirkwall Circle is as clear of an example of a Circle that needs to be Annulled as you can get. Aside from Bethany and the shop guy and that kid from Starkhaven, you couldn't swing a cat in that Circle without hitting a Blood Mage.

If they were ever going to use the Right of Annulment anywhere... ever... it'd be in Kirkwall.

So I take it you didn't play DAO?

[Rockpopple]

Sure I did. Why do you ask? Oh, you mean with the Circle Tower? Well technically the Ferelden Tower needed to be Annulled too, but that was an extreme case. Abominations were flying out from the windows and popping up from the toilets. At the same time, though, you could make the case that one Mage (almost used the word wizard there) or a group of Mages were responsible, and once you killed them you could reclaim the Tower.

Kirkwall is different. There wasn't a group of Mages that was corrupting the Tower in Kirkwall, it was a systemic corruption that was getting worse over the years - mostly because of the Templar's woeful management of that Circle.

The Fereldan Circle's Templars were tough, but very fair. When I played a Mage in DA:O, I felt like a bird in a gilded cage. I wasn't afraid of being beaten or raped or being made Tranquil because I sneezed funny. It was a stable Circle. Kirkwall's isn't, and the Templars bare a lot of the blame for that.

[Rifneno]

Rockpopple wrote...

Sure I did. Why do you ask? Oh, you mean with the Circle Tower? Well technically the Ferelden Tower needed to be Annulled too, but that was an extreme case. Abominations were flying out from the windows and popping up from the toilets. At the same time, though, you could make the case that one Mage (almost used the word wizard there) or a group of Mages were responsible, and once you killed them you could reclaim the Tower.

Kirkwall is different. There wasn't a group of Mages that was corrupting the Tower in Kirkwall, it was a systemic corruption that was getting worse over the years - mostly because of the Templar's woeful management of that Circle.

The Fereldan Circle's Templars were tough, but very fair. When I played a Mage in DA:O, I felt like a bird in a gilded cage. I wasn't afraid of being beaten or raped or being made Tranquil because I sneezed funny. It was a stable Circle. Kirkwall's isn't, and the Templars bare a lot of the blame for that.

That's what the Right of Annulment is for: when the Circle is "irredeemable" from mass demon infestation.  Greigor didn't even want to do it in Ferelden and was willing to call it off if Irving tells him to, he just felt it was the only possible option.  The Kirkwall Circle is nowhere near what the RoA is intended for.  Meredith only ordered it because the lyrium crazyblade was making her see demons and blood mages at every turn.  I mean yeah, there are a lot in Kirkwall, but she was flatly against the tranquil solution in Act II, which isn't really any different.  It was only after the idol that she went so nuts that by the time you fight her she thinks she's the only templar left not being blood controlled.

[Rockpopple]

So I guess you're saying the Ferelden Circle is more of an example of when the Right should be invoked than the Kirkwall Circle?

..... I guess... but I don't know... Meredith was seeing ghosts everywhere, but at the same time, the First Enchanter of the Kirkwall Circle was a Necromancer. Could have been a Blood Mage. Don't know if he was. And there's not much daylight between a mass "demon" infestation and a mass "Blood Mage" infestation, right? At any moment those Blood Mages could become Abominations.

I dunno. They seem like 2 completely different situations but I can't imagine that the RoA was intended only for something as narrow as "Your Circle is literally filled with Abominations and demons". But if it is, I can buy that. RoA is a very drastic measure, so I guess it would come from a very drastic time.

[Rifneno]

Rockpopple wrote...

So I guess you're saying the Ferelden Circle is more of an example of when the Right should be invoked than the Kirkwall Circle?

..... I guess... but I don't know... Meredith was seeing ghosts everywhere, but at the same time, the First Enchanter of the Kirkwall Circle was a Necromancer. Could have been a Blood Mage. Don't know if he was. And there's not much daylight between a mass "demon" infestation and a mass "Blood Mage" infestation, right? At any moment those Blood Mages could become Abominations.

I dunno. They seem like 2 completely different situations but I can't imagine that the RoA was intended only for something as narrow as "Your Circle is literally filled with Abominations and demons". But if it is, I can buy that. RoA is a very drastic measure, so I guess it would come from a very drastic time.

But we don't know how infested the Kirkwall Circle is.  We see quite a few of them, but most are encountered out of the Circle.  We go through the Ferelden Tower floor by floor and find few survivors.  We don't see the inside of the Gallows until after the RoA is being carried out, at which point most of the abominations are probably from mages that only just lost it because the templars are trying to kill everyone in sight.

[Rockpopple]

This is true, yeah. I guess I can agree with you that the Kirkwall Circle wasn't the best example of when to use the RoA - that'd be the Ferelden Circle. But the Kirkwall Circle would have needed some drastic action to get under control - starting with getting rid of Orsino and Meredith together.

But if they did that, they'd probably move to remove Orsino. He'd resist, and some of the Mages would gather to him to defend him... then we'd have the Ferelden Tower all over again and then the RoA could rightly be invoked...

Ugh, it's makin' my head hurt. Damn fire-flingers and lyrium snorters. Damn them all.

[Octan92]

For me, the only saving grace for the mages is Emile (haven't really gotten to know Bethany yet). I have to assume most Gallows mages have a plight similar to him, they don't practice blood magic or consort with demons, they just want to have a life. However, oh so often, mages keep doing stupid things and prove crazy Meredith right. Grace kills level-headed Thrask, Anders blows up the up Chantry (I'm sure most Andrastians are going to be thrilled with that), and Orsino dies with zero integrity intact. Would it have been so hard to present at least one noble mage.

Modifié par Octan92, 11 avril 2011 - 03:09 .

[LobselVith8]

Rockpopple wrote...

Way I see it, there wouldn't be a Right of Annulment if there was never any justified use in invoking it. I'm pretty sure the Kirkwall Circle is as clear of an example of a Circle that needs to be Annulled as you can get. Aside from Bethany and the shop guy and that kid from Starkhaven, you couldn't swing a cat in that Circle without hitting a Blood Mage.

You mean the Circle mages we never actually meet because they're imprisoned in the Gallows?

Rockpopple wrote...

If they were ever going to use the Right of Annulment anywhere... ever... it'd be in Kirkwall.

Why? Because we encounter mage antagonists? We also encounter many ordinary humans trying to kill us, that doesn't mean the majority of humans in Kirkwall are evil. And the Circle of Kirkwall is being annuled because of what an apostate did - which makes the Circle of Magi innocent of the crime that an ex-Grey Warden committed.

[Rockpopple]

Why do people always read the start of a conversation and never the end, where opinions might have changed or evolved since?

[TobiTobsen]

PurebredCorn wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Kirkwall: Nuke It From Orbit.

I fully support this motion.

Dragon Age 3: Play as an Imperial Inqusitor and order the Exterminatus of the world called Thedas. Cleanse the universe from this planet filled with heretics, xenos and uncontrolled psykers!
While vile mutants still draw breath, there can be no peace. While obscene heretics' hearts still beat, there can be no respite. While faithless traitors still live, there can be no forgiveness.
In the name of the God-Emperor!

Modifié par TobiTobsen, 11 avril 2011 - 03:25 .

[barryl89]

Why? Because we encounter mage antagonists? We also encounter many ordinary humans trying to kill us, that doesn't mean the majority of humans in Kirkwall are evil. And the Circle of Kirkwall is being annuled because of what an apostate did - which makes the Circle of Magi innocent of the crime that an ex-Grey Warden committed.

He is also an escaped Circle Mage. If you want to try and pull the Grey Warden card I can pull that. He left the circle and now look at what he did years later.

[Emperor Iaius I]

LobselVith8 wrote...

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

There are several innocent blood mages in this game.

Merrill. Taronhe. The girl at the Rose.

I'd say Decimus and Grace, but I can't remember if they were abominations or not.

I think you may just want to play through the game again. I am all for siding with the mages, as I have in every playthrough, but Merrill brings an extremely demon into the world,

Actually, Merrill doesn't. Audacity is still trapped in the Totem when she leaves Sundermount.

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

Tarohne is delving into the unwilling minds of templars to destroy their ranks (Which I'd agree with if it was a templar like the insane bald one from anders' personal act II quest). Oh, and Idunna is in league with Tarohne, not to mention she almost makes Hawke kill himself

I suppose from the POV of a Tevinter they would be "innocent." Look at the bottom of Emperor's post: "in-character."

Quite so. It's an issue of perspective, and templars should be able to take as well as they give. They have no qualms about turning mages into Tranquils--where's the complaint about mental assault there?

[TheAwesomologist]

I never understand these threads where people support killing off mages for simply defending themselves.
Good Mages:
Merrill - Thats right she's good. Every death caused is by the Keeper not leaving Sundermount
Bethany
Alain
Grace - She gets driven into being evil. Rape will do that.
Fenryiel
Emile
Various store and 1 line NPC's as well as Mages who just get killed when the finally resort to blood magic to try and escape rape/murder/torture at the hands of the Templars.

While there are a number villainous blood mages in the game, they're no different than the rooftop ninja's. They're just spawns. The only "evil" mage we interact with is the Kirkwall Killer. All the others are driven to blood magic by the templars.

I don't understand how anyone sides with the Templars in this game.

[The Baconer]

TheAwesomologist wrote...
Grace - She gets driven into being evil. Rape will do that.

Huh.

[TheAwesomologist]

The Baconer wrote...

TheAwesomologist wrote...
Grace - She gets driven into being evil. Rape will do that.

Huh.

It's implied she's been abused by some templars.

[barryl89]

TheAwesomologist wrote...

The Baconer wrote...

TheAwesomologist wrote...
Grace - She gets driven into being evil. Rape will do that.

Huh.

It's implied she's been abused by some templars.

No way. Well yes she was once she is caught. But she is evil before that I swear.

[The Baconer]

TheAwesomologist wrote...
It's implied she's been abused by some templars.

I've heard of Alain's implied abuses, but whenever I talk to Grace in the Gallows the sow just blames me for her capture.

[TobiTobsen]

TheAwesomologist wrote...

The Baconer wrote...

TheAwesomologist wrote...
Grace - She gets driven into being evil. Rape will do that.

Huh.

It's implied she's been abused by some templars.

I would really like to see that quote.

[TheAwesomologist]

Grace only sought escape once she was being moved and abused from the Starkhaven circle to the far worse Kirkwall circle.
She gets PO'ed at Hawke because he doesn't offer help or guidance after they're freed (or he turns them in, which lets face it, is a fate worse than death).

[TobiTobsen]

TheAwesomologist wrote...

Grace only sought escape once she was being moved and abused from the Starkhaven circle to the far worse Kirkwall circle.
She gets PO'ed at Hawke because he doesn't offer help or guidance after they're freed (or he turns them in, which lets face it, is a fate worse than death).

Grace and her group used the fire in the Starkhaven circle to escape. We don't know how the circle in Starkhaven operated but in my game abuse or rape was never mentioned.